Does the history of a marque matter in the least??
Discussion
wisbech said:
RDMcG said:
Like pretty much all of the industrialists and business people in Germany under the Third Reich, the Porsche family supported the regime. They were not egregious fanatical Nazis, and as previously noted avoided any wearing of uniforms. It is however true that Ferdinand Porsche was utterly indifferent to the fate of the slave labour in the factory at Wolfsburg where the VW factory was built ( and which also turned out military items during the war).
The Porsches was less committed than some such as the Quandt family who owned BMW for instance. On the end they were not personally involved in specific actions on individuals. There was not serious attempt to persecute them; Ferdinand Porsche was held for a while by the French after the war, but I thing his daughter paid off some bribes to get him released.
Both father and son knew Hitler, and Hitler agreed to finance the Auto Union racing team in the Thirties after a visit from Ferdinand Porsche and Hans Stuck Sr.
My sense was always that they were somewhat opportunistic and figured out it was better to support the regime rather than fight it. In my view this was the attitude of the entire German industrial establishment. Ferdinand Porsche had been building military equipment for Germany even in WW.1 and was quite old by 1945 and the fall of the Third Reich. I doubt if you will find many people from the 1933-45 period in German business who actively fought the Nazis.
Very true. An ex-gf grandparents who were rich German bankers left for Monaco (grandmother was Jewish) in the 1930’s and never returned even after 1945 (but her father did). Active fighting wasn’t really an option, but emigration was. The Porsches was less committed than some such as the Quandt family who owned BMW for instance. On the end they were not personally involved in specific actions on individuals. There was not serious attempt to persecute them; Ferdinand Porsche was held for a while by the French after the war, but I thing his daughter paid off some bribes to get him released.
Both father and son knew Hitler, and Hitler agreed to finance the Auto Union racing team in the Thirties after a visit from Ferdinand Porsche and Hans Stuck Sr.
My sense was always that they were somewhat opportunistic and figured out it was better to support the regime rather than fight it. In my view this was the attitude of the entire German industrial establishment. Ferdinand Porsche had been building military equipment for Germany even in WW.1 and was quite old by 1945 and the fall of the Third Reich. I doubt if you will find many people from the 1933-45 period in German business who actively fought the Nazis.
Shysters
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 25th February 04:20
Raygun said:
Cut the crap.
Porsche was well in with the Nazi high command, like a lot of Nazis avoided the hangmans noose.
Also don't try and equate this country with Nazi mass murderers.
Your just another Porsche fan boy that won't face up to it's dark past.
I'm sorry but your views are beyond immature. Sure, all of the German companies at the time played their part in the war, even Ford of Germany, but still none of them got anywhere near a noose. Christ, they only hung about a dozen or so of the absolute top members of the Nazi Party at Nuremburg, there'd be thousands in line before hanging company bosses. The hangman's noose really wasn't that prevalent. Porsche was well in with the Nazi high command, like a lot of Nazis avoided the hangmans noose.
Also don't try and equate this country with Nazi mass murderers.
Your just another Porsche fan boy that won't face up to it's dark past.
I will equate this country with Nazi mass murderers, because we had a murderers too. I'm very proud of this country's role and achievements in WW2, but it all gets very uncomfortable when you dig into our history much before that. We might be a very small country, but we still dispatched millions of slaves from Africa to the Americas. This nation's wealth was stolen from others, it's as simple as that. And go and visit a National Trust property like Quarry Bank in Cheshire, and check out just how many children were involved in the Industrial Revolution, who grew up to have an average longevity of about 30 years.
Another example of how people like you won't face up to our dark past, I recently learned that one of my favourite songs of all time, Penny Lane by the Beatles, is about a street named after a slave trader, indeed an anti-abolitionist slave trader. Sir Paul McCartney only recently autographed that street name plate, in that excellent Carpool Karaoke with James Corden.
Funny how we know so much about the wrongs of other nations yet so little about our own, isn't it?
In answer to the OP, I find the history of Porsche to be fascinating, I might only own an old 986 but when I look at pictures of the first Porsche road car, I smile.
heebeegeetee said:
In answer to the OP, I find the history of Porsche to be fascinating, I might only own an old 986 but when I look at pictures of the first Porsche road car, I smile.
I share that interest, and if you look at Ferdinand Porsche's history , he was building cars since 1900 and had a huge and distinguished career long before 1933, including being chief engineer for Austro-Daimler and Mercedes;.I in no way deny his connection to the Third Reich , but it was more mercantile than conviction.
The Porsche company itself was only formed in 1948, so its production and design is postwar, although of course clearly derived initially from the Porsche-designed Beetle. As an engineering and motorsport company it has a lot going for it.
Jaguar steve said:
nickfrog said:
Jaguar steve said:
I doubt anybody driving a two 'undred an nineynine pahaaand a mumf base diesel XE would be able to tell you the names of the Jaguar company founders or anything about the racing victories at Le mans in the 50's or when the fiftieth anniversary of the XJ range was.But its a 'faaakin Jaaag innit. Neighbours are like, well impressed.
I don't own one of my cars, not because I give a s
t about impressing anyone but simply because it was cheaper than the depreciation, even vs discounted cash price. Castigating everyone on that basis is irrational.
So do tell. Stop what sweeping generalisation exactly? Where for one moment have I castigated anybody for anything? And where on earth did you get the delusional fantasy from that I give a toss whether anybody may or may not own the car on their drive?
Maybe it'd help if you turned the paranoia down a little and stopped searching for things that aren't actually there
Ari said:
You'd be wise to stop digging now, you're making yourself look even more of a tit than you did with your original post (which is pretty impressive going).
Would it over egg everything to PCP a Porsche. What with the apparent connotations to being poor, and a direct link to the SS, a choice for all occasions? Raygun]eebeegeetee said:
I will equate this country with Nazi mass murderers,
/quote]
I fking don't, I'm proud of my country and don't like people comparing it to Nazi mass murderers.
That's fine, but what do you do about the past? /quote]
I f
king don't, I'm proud of my country and don't like people comparing it to Nazi mass murderers.It seems you wan't to discuss Germany's past while completely ignoring our own past. How does that work for you?
wisbech said:
broombroomcar said:
When I say history and heritage, I'm talking about Mercedes-Benz making the S-Class that can trace its roots back to the 1930s. The S Class theme to the 70s or 50s if you include the 6-cyl fintail. It's a gradual and innovative evolution of the flagship model. Not to mention tracing roots back to the first passenger motor car.
Lexus started as a direct copy of the W140 S-Class from the early 1990s.
The IS is a direct (or indirect) copy of the late 1990s BMW 3-Series.
Lexus has no meaningful racing history and the brand was only sold in Japan relatively recently.
I'm not a fan of Tesla but the brand has at least carved their own niche and path. They've not just copied what others where doing. Still no history or racing here either.
The LS400 is no more a copy of the S class than the Audi V8 was. Of course Toyota benchmarked against Mercedes/ 7 class/ Cadillac etc, but so did Audi. Or you think manufacturers develop cars in a vacuum without taking into account the competition?Lexus started as a direct copy of the W140 S-Class from the early 1990s.
The IS is a direct (or indirect) copy of the late 1990s BMW 3-Series.
Lexus has no meaningful racing history and the brand was only sold in Japan relatively recently.
I'm not a fan of Tesla but the brand has at least carved their own niche and path. They've not just copied what others where doing. Still no history or racing here either.
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