RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender | The short review
Discussion
British car manufactures have this really strange habit (I guess it's related to investment) that they keep cars going for way to long without replacing them. When they finally do get round to it the change becomes so radical that there's always going to be a bunch of people that just don't get it.
I'm not talking about simply not liking a product, we don't all have to like the same thing & it's ok to not like something but lets be honest the original Defender was ridiculously out of date at the end, same could be said for the original Mini, original Range Rover and a bunch of Jag stuff. There were loads of people who said it's not a proper Mini, it's not a proper Range Rover & it's not a proper XJ jag when they were replaced.
Land Rover are in the business of making money and to do that they try to make cars that enough people want to buy and are prepared to pay good money for. The only commercial market worth looking at is the higher end pickup market & I suspect they have something in the pipe line for that.
The farmers I know might have a Land Rover but it's likely to an absolute beat up wreck, they may have bought in new in 1983 but they don't replace it very often to make much of a market. The rest drive round in low spec pick ups or just a crappy old snotter, again not much of a market.
The off- road brigade use 20 yr old Disco's, they've never waltzed into their local LR dealer and bought a brand new one to then chuck down a green lane. If they did LR would be building a car for them!
I'm not talking about simply not liking a product, we don't all have to like the same thing & it's ok to not like something but lets be honest the original Defender was ridiculously out of date at the end, same could be said for the original Mini, original Range Rover and a bunch of Jag stuff. There were loads of people who said it's not a proper Mini, it's not a proper Range Rover & it's not a proper XJ jag when they were replaced.
Land Rover are in the business of making money and to do that they try to make cars that enough people want to buy and are prepared to pay good money for. The only commercial market worth looking at is the higher end pickup market & I suspect they have something in the pipe line for that.
The farmers I know might have a Land Rover but it's likely to an absolute beat up wreck, they may have bought in new in 1983 but they don't replace it very often to make much of a market. The rest drive round in low spec pick ups or just a crappy old snotter, again not much of a market.
The off- road brigade use 20 yr old Disco's, they've never waltzed into their local LR dealer and bought a brand new one to then chuck down a green lane. If they did LR would be building a car for them!
300bhp/ton said:
The trouble is, they no longer seem to sell any thing you'd actually call a "4x4". All they have is plastic posing machines that all look rather similar, are heavily compromised as proper off road vehicles. And all very very expensive.
This new vehicle looks to be a superb DISCOVERY. But it is not in any shape or form a Defender. It doesn't even look like one or share a single design clue with the heritage of the brand.
My God you are full of it. Go back to your Jimny.This new vehicle looks to be a superb DISCOVERY. But it is not in any shape or form a Defender. It doesn't even look like one or share a single design clue with the heritage of the brand.
The videos clearly demonstrate it is a very capable 4x4. The old one would get crushed by the new one on that Namibian route in terms of journey time and comfort.
It has loads of design cues from the old Defender. Like the P38 and L322 have cues from the original Range Rover without being retro pastiches.
You are not judging your new Jimny against how much you can beat up an old Land Rover. Why do it to the new Defender?
braddo said:
My God you are full of it. Go back to your Jimny.
The videos clearly demonstrate it is a very capable 4x4. The old one would get crushed by the new one on that Namibian route in terms of journey time and comfort.
It has loads of design cues from the old Defender. Like the P38 and L322 have cues from the original Range Rover without being retro pastiches.
You are not judging your new Jimny against how much you can beat up an old Land Rover. Why do it to the new Defender?
Just don't. The videos clearly demonstrate it is a very capable 4x4. The old one would get crushed by the new one on that Namibian route in terms of journey time and comfort.
It has loads of design cues from the old Defender. Like the P38 and L322 have cues from the original Range Rover without being retro pastiches.
You are not judging your new Jimny against how much you can beat up an old Land Rover. Why do it to the new Defender?
He paints himself as some sort of expert and the last word on "true 4x4s" but has very little real knowledge. Theoretical or practical.
This is just about the only SUV/4x4 thingy I'd actually consider having. The other being the Suzuki Jimny!
But wowzers that price!
I have no idea how people do it these days. The amount of JLR metal around here is bewildering, some households have two of them!
Carfection/Henry Catchpole had a really nice video covering the Namibia trip, It looked like amazing fun! He also mentioned that they had attempted a Defender update/replacement as far back as the 70's and had had numerous attempts since. This is the first one that's made to an actual product so of course its going to be a very very different vehicle.
But wowzers that price!
I have no idea how people do it these days. The amount of JLR metal around here is bewildering, some households have two of them!
Carfection/Henry Catchpole had a really nice video covering the Namibia trip, It looked like amazing fun! He also mentioned that they had attempted a Defender update/replacement as far back as the 70's and had had numerous attempts since. This is the first one that's made to an actual product so of course its going to be a very very different vehicle.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Thursday 26th March 12:47
Otispunkmeyer said:
This is just about the only SUV/4x4 thingy I'd actually consider having. The other being the Suzuki Jimny!
But wowzers that price!
I have no idea how people do it these days. The amount of JLR metal around here is bewildering, some households have two of them!
Carfection/Henry Catchpole had a really nice video covering the Namibia trip, It looked like amazing fun!
People keep mentioning the price, but not what they're specific issue with it is?But wowzers that price!
I have no idea how people do it these days. The amount of JLR metal around here is bewildering, some households have two of them!
Carfection/Henry Catchpole had a really nice video covering the Namibia trip, It looked like amazing fun!
A wrangler rubicon is £45k+ and a G350d starts at £93k
At the risk of opening up old wounds, please allow me to try to help people understand the disappointment this new Defender represents for many people.
Imagine if you will a pub. Let's call it 'The Defender'. It is a nice old country pub. It has been around for years and is a little rough around the edges but is comforting, unthreatening, familiar. There is a real fire and condensation dripping down the windows. The drink selection is adequate and there is a dog sleeping happily in the corner. The clientel are a cosmopolitan bunch. A real mix of world adventurers, builders, military types, farmers, old money, new money and no money. The pub is a happy place, if not hugely successful.
Then one day the landlord decides to renovate. He spends a fortune on new decor, double glazing, bright lights. There is now music, and food eaten from pieces of slate instead of plates. The dog now lives in a handbag and the locals have been replaced by boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones who pop in for lunch now and then. Everybody is loud and the drinks are now treble the price. Instead of traditional ales there are 27 micro-brewed beers. There are 100 different gins and a dozen tonics. The real fire has been replaced with a flat-screen TV.
The locals move on. They are neither welcome nor comfortable in the new pub. They find other watering holes (I've heard the Hilux Head is decent and the Isuzu's Arms does a good roast). Some might pop back every so often but always leave with a sense of sadness, remembering the good times which are no more. The landlord is happy and business is booming. By most metrics the pub is 'better', but it is not the same. It's not a bad pub, it's just not 'The Defender'.
The locals had no right to claim any real sense of ownership of the pub, but that doesn't stop them feeling a real loss when it is taken away. Maybe they should have tipped the landlord a bit more
Imagine if you will a pub. Let's call it 'The Defender'. It is a nice old country pub. It has been around for years and is a little rough around the edges but is comforting, unthreatening, familiar. There is a real fire and condensation dripping down the windows. The drink selection is adequate and there is a dog sleeping happily in the corner. The clientel are a cosmopolitan bunch. A real mix of world adventurers, builders, military types, farmers, old money, new money and no money. The pub is a happy place, if not hugely successful.
Then one day the landlord decides to renovate. He spends a fortune on new decor, double glazing, bright lights. There is now music, and food eaten from pieces of slate instead of plates. The dog now lives in a handbag and the locals have been replaced by boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones who pop in for lunch now and then. Everybody is loud and the drinks are now treble the price. Instead of traditional ales there are 27 micro-brewed beers. There are 100 different gins and a dozen tonics. The real fire has been replaced with a flat-screen TV.
The locals move on. They are neither welcome nor comfortable in the new pub. They find other watering holes (I've heard the Hilux Head is decent and the Isuzu's Arms does a good roast). Some might pop back every so often but always leave with a sense of sadness, remembering the good times which are no more. The landlord is happy and business is booming. By most metrics the pub is 'better', but it is not the same. It's not a bad pub, it's just not 'The Defender'.
The locals had no right to claim any real sense of ownership of the pub, but that doesn't stop them feeling a real loss when it is taken away. Maybe they should have tipped the landlord a bit more
AngryPartsBloke said:
No but there's clearly something wrong with you, despite any objective evidence to the contrary you continue to bang out the same rubbish.
I notice you haven't entered into the longer thread about the Namibia trip.
So if my view doesn't tally with yours, you'll ignore anything I've said and label it as rubbish and insult me instead. How mature and reasoned of you I notice you haven't entered into the longer thread about the Namibia trip.
BTW - what objective evidence???
I think that it is generally a good effort and man. The model tested is the top of the range version. The commercial version has not been launched yet and the cheapest current one on steel wheels looks really good.
Couple of points. I would like to have read more info on the 6 cylinder Ingenium engine.
Shame it is not assembled in the UK. However it is developed in the UK with a UK engine compared with the Grenadier project that is foreign developed and just assembled here.
Couple of points. I would like to have read more info on the 6 cylinder Ingenium engine.
Shame it is not assembled in the UK. However it is developed in the UK with a UK engine compared with the Grenadier project that is foreign developed and just assembled here.
300bhp/ton said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
People keep mentioning the price, but not what they're specific issue with it is?
A wrangler rubicon is £45k+ and a G350d starts at £93k
Wrangler is a ripoff in the UK. Base price in the USA is around $27kA wrangler rubicon is £45k+ and a G350d starts at £93k
Jammez said:
British car manufactures have this really strange habit (I guess it's related to investment) that they keep cars going for way to long without replacing them. When they finally do get round to it the change becomes so radical that there's always going to be a bunch of people that just don't get it.
The thing is, this statement isn't really all that true or accurate.Firstly other car makers from other countries have also kept models going a long time.
And in direct regards to the Defender model, it has had many evolutionary steps and was updated. Maybe not always in the areas hoped for or to the extent of other models. But this was largely because it's base design didn't really have all that much wrong with.
The only real issue with the design was all the separate body panels, which where labour intensive to assemble, caused a lot of the leaks and their mounting system was not great for NVH.
Ford, Chevy, GMC, Dodge, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Toyota, VW, Jeep, Suzuki, Mercedes, Fiat and others.
All currently sell or build a vehicle(s) that uses a very similar style of ladder chassis and axle/suspension design to the Defender. The only real differences are many use modern hydroformed chassis' and a newer single piece body tub.
Jammez said:
lets be honest the original Defender was ridiculously out of date at the end
In what regard specifically?The sad thing is, the last of the line Defenders are now at an age where a farmer will want to replace them. But they now have to buy something else, as LR offer nothing for them. A good farming friend has his late model D90 pickup stolen and written off only end of last year. He is now in an Isuzu pickup, not because it is better than the 90 (it actually isn't). But he couldn't buy a new 90.
Jammez said:
The off- road brigade use 20 yr old Disco's, they've never waltzed into their local LR dealer and bought a brand new one to then chuck down a green lane. If they did LR would be building a car for them!
The world is far bigger than the UK and you are showing complete ignorance to the wider world. Just go on Youtube and type in Wrangler or JL Wrangler, Jimny, ZR2, Triton or a host of other modern 4x4's and there will be 1000's of videos of them being off roaded.People do off road new vehicles - fact!
LimaDelta said:
At the risk of opening up old wounds, please allow me to try to help people understand the disappointment this new Defender represents for many people.
Imagine if you will a pub. Let's call it 'The Defender'. It is a nice old country pub. It has been around for years and is a little rough around the edges but is comforting, unthreatening, familiar. There is a real fire and condensation dripping down the windows. The drink selection is adequate and there is a dog sleeping happily in the corner. The clientel are a cosmopolitan bunch. A real mix of world adventurers, builders, military types, farmers, old money, new money and no money. The pub is a happy place, if not hugely successful.
Then one day the landlord decides to renovate. He spends a fortune on new decor, double glazing, bright lights. There is now music, and food eaten from pieces of slate instead of plates. The dog now lives in a handbag and the locals have been replaced by boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones who pop in for lunch now and then. Everybody is loud and the drinks are now treble the price. Instead of traditional ales there are 27 micro-brewed beers. There are 100 different gins and a dozen tonics. The real fire has been replaced with a flat-screen TV.
The locals move on. They are neither welcome nor comfortable in the new pub. They find other watering holes (I've heard the Hilux Head is decent and the Isuzu's Arms does a good roast). Some might pop back every so often but always leave with a sense of sadness, remembering the good times which are no more. The landlord is happy and business is booming. By most metrics the pub is 'better', but it is not the same. It's not a bad pub, it's just not 'The Defender'.
The locals had no right to claim any real sense of ownership of the pub, but that doesn't stop them feeling a real loss when it is taken away. Maybe they should have tipped the landlord a bit more
Very well done. I like a nicely crafted analogy.Imagine if you will a pub. Let's call it 'The Defender'. It is a nice old country pub. It has been around for years and is a little rough around the edges but is comforting, unthreatening, familiar. There is a real fire and condensation dripping down the windows. The drink selection is adequate and there is a dog sleeping happily in the corner. The clientel are a cosmopolitan bunch. A real mix of world adventurers, builders, military types, farmers, old money, new money and no money. The pub is a happy place, if not hugely successful.
Then one day the landlord decides to renovate. He spends a fortune on new decor, double glazing, bright lights. There is now music, and food eaten from pieces of slate instead of plates. The dog now lives in a handbag and the locals have been replaced by boring but solvent suburban middle-management drones who pop in for lunch now and then. Everybody is loud and the drinks are now treble the price. Instead of traditional ales there are 27 micro-brewed beers. There are 100 different gins and a dozen tonics. The real fire has been replaced with a flat-screen TV.
The locals move on. They are neither welcome nor comfortable in the new pub. They find other watering holes (I've heard the Hilux Head is decent and the Isuzu's Arms does a good roast). Some might pop back every so often but always leave with a sense of sadness, remembering the good times which are no more. The landlord is happy and business is booming. By most metrics the pub is 'better', but it is not the same. It's not a bad pub, it's just not 'The Defender'.
The locals had no right to claim any real sense of ownership of the pub, but that doesn't stop them feeling a real loss when it is taken away. Maybe they should have tipped the landlord a bit more
300bhp/ton said:
Nothing really wrong with the rest of the design however.
The old Defender handled very well, was fun to pilot. Was generally pretty comfortable and rode well.
I have not been without a Defender for 25 years and though I like them I don’t agree with most of that.The old Defender handled very well, was fun to pilot. Was generally pretty comfortable and rode well.
I think the new one is great and as long as it proves reliable, with reviews like this and most of the others I have seen it should prove a success, though optioned up, it does seem expensive.
LimaDelta said:
Maybe they should have tipped the landlord a bit more
The military will never again want a vehicle based on a civilian vehicle. Utility vehicle buyers are better served by the Japanese - JLR is on a hiding to nothing if they try to compete directly.
braddo said:
The videos clearly demonstrate it is a very capable 4x4.
Where have I said it isn't capable? I said the design doesn't natively support good off road performance.They are fairly unstable, proof by lifting wheels in the air all the time. And rely fully on a heavy electronics package to make them capable. It is a bit like forcing a heavy saloon car to be good on the track. 100% possible, but never ideal and always a compromise.
braddo said:
The old one would get crushed by the new one on that Namibian route in terms of journey time and comfort.
And your proof for this is????? :whislte:BTW when the air sprung vehicles are jacked up to their highest clearance, ride quality drops significantly and they become bouncy. You can clearly see this in lots and lots of vids across YouTube from the D3 model onwards. Yes the cabin and seats are comfy..... but I've never said they weren't.
braddo said:
It has loads of design cues from the old Defender.
Where?Are you meaning the fake plastic chequer plating on the fake plastic Defender?
Look at a Wrangler or a Jimny and you can see clear evidence of a common design theme compared to past models. This new LR model shares nothing with the Defender or Series. Flat top wings, round headlights, wheel arch spats, narrow flat sided body panels, flat windscreen.
The silhouette isn't even that of a Defender. If you glance at one or scroll past a picture of one, they look rather like a D3/4 in shape.
300bhp/ton said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
People keep mentioning the price, but not what they're specific issue with it is?
A wrangler rubicon is £45k+ and a G350d starts at £93k
Wrangler is a ripoff in the UK. Base price in the USA is around $27kA wrangler rubicon is £45k+ and a G350d starts at £93k
Wrangler Sahara: € 83.490
Wrangler Ribicon: € 87.990
Mercedes G350d: € 176.907
New Defender 90 D200: € 95.325
New Defender 110 D200: € 101.325
Does has it advantages though, National Debt to GDP Ratio:
USA: 106.70%
UK: 85.67%
NL: 52.04%
andyxxx said:
I have not been without a Defender for 25 years and though I like them I don’t agree with most of that.
I think the new one is great and as long as it proves reliable, with reviews like this and most of the others I have seen it should prove a success, though optioned up, it does seem expensive.
Why don't you agree?I think the new one is great and as long as it proves reliable, with reviews like this and most of the others I have seen it should prove a success, though optioned up, it does seem expensive.
And what does this model offer than a Disco 2/3/4 can't do equally as well?
I'm not knocking the capability of this new vehicle. All I'm saying is, it isn't remotely a Defender in ethos, design, looks, style, construction, capabilities or heritage. I simply do not see how any of that can be argued.
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