RE: McLaren seeks extra funding to mitigate losses
Discussion
Turn7 said:
Matty3 said:
Wierd UK attitude to British success that they should not to be successful?
Standard isnt it ? Love the underdog then hate the successfull version it becomes.I think we have become quite a vindictive and unpleasant version of ourselves lately.
Matty3 said:
Turn7 said:
Matty3 said:
Wierd UK attitude to British success that they should not to be successful?
Standard isnt it ? Love the underdog then hate the successfull version it becomes.I think we have become quite a vindictive and unpleasant version of ourselves lately.
The McLaren debate always seems so utterly meaningless, with both sides talking past one another.
- It's clear that the cars are very highly rated for their dynamic qualities by those who know about cars and driving.
- It's also clear that one to two year old McLarens are currently remarkably good value compared to their new list prices with options, selling for little more than half the new price in a few recent cases.
The above are observable facts, and do not contradict one another - residual values are about far more than a car's dynamic appeal (c.f. Audi). A 'debate' between two sides arguing the above positions is utterly inane, since they don't contradict one another.
By various mechanisms, lower residual values tend to lead to weaken a manufacturer's business; in today's PCP-driven marketplace this is particularly so, since you are literally paying the expected depreciation in your monthly payment. It's not "unpatriotic" to point this out. There is no national glory in adopting the ostrich position, we should strive to see the world as it is, not merely as we wish it to be.
The only sane enthusiast response I can see is the line that both Chris Harris and the Youtuber who shall not be named have taken, which is to observe that McLaren have some business issues, and to investigate how affordably it's now possible to get hold of one of these exciting cars.
- It's clear that the cars are very highly rated for their dynamic qualities by those who know about cars and driving.
- It's also clear that one to two year old McLarens are currently remarkably good value compared to their new list prices with options, selling for little more than half the new price in a few recent cases.
The above are observable facts, and do not contradict one another - residual values are about far more than a car's dynamic appeal (c.f. Audi). A 'debate' between two sides arguing the above positions is utterly inane, since they don't contradict one another.
By various mechanisms, lower residual values tend to lead to weaken a manufacturer's business; in today's PCP-driven marketplace this is particularly so, since you are literally paying the expected depreciation in your monthly payment. It's not "unpatriotic" to point this out. There is no national glory in adopting the ostrich position, we should strive to see the world as it is, not merely as we wish it to be.
The only sane enthusiast response I can see is the line that both Chris Harris and the Youtuber who shall not be named have taken, which is to observe that McLaren have some business issues, and to investigate how affordably it's now possible to get hold of one of these exciting cars.
CAR Magazine has uploaded a 2011 article about what's in McLaren's Unit 2:
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/features/opinion/ben...
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/features/opinion/ben...
Argleton said:
Right, so if they're struggling or 'don't want to' where does that leave other investors?
In terms of what, why don't they invest/lend instead? Probably the same reasons except perhaps replace "been directed to..." with 'don't have deep enough pockets'.To be honest, this does seem a bit over-dramatised. Raising debt was probably planned to follow the equity raising, it looks like they may just have been a bit cheeky going straight to the government for that and not trying hard enough elsewhere first.
JxJ Jr. said:
Argleton said:
Right, so if they're struggling or 'don't want to' where does that leave other investors?
In terms of what, why don't they invest/lend instead? Probably the same reasons except perhaps replace "been directed to..." with 'don't have deep enough pockets'.To be honest, this does seem a bit over-dramatised. Raising debt was probably planned to follow the equity raising, it looks like they may just have been a bit cheeky going straight to the government for that and not trying hard enough elsewhere first.
Matty3 said:
Turn7 said:
Matty3 said:
Wierd UK attitude to British success that they should not to be successful?
Standard isnt it ? Love the underdog then hate the successfull version it becomes.I think we have become quite a vindictive and unpleasant version of ourselves lately.
rodericb said:
Matty3 said:
Turn7 said:
Matty3 said:
Wierd UK attitude to British success that they should not to be successful?
Standard isnt it ? Love the underdog then hate the successfull version it becomes.I think we have become quite a vindictive and unpleasant version of ourselves lately.
Wills2 said:
I seriously don't get the hate for Mclaren on these pages
It’s “group” mentality - You need to make disparaging comments about McLaren whenever a thread comes up to fit in. Key things to repeat in order to fit into the group - poor reliability, no soul, lacks passion, same engine, same carbon tub, all look the same, another special edition, bad management. Think I hit all the catch phrases there. You also don’t need to be an owner or have driven one to know they are boring to drive / lack passion / have no soul / did I mention boring? As an owner (and ex Ferrari, Porsche and Lotus owner) I know I am probably wrong in my opinion but so far I haven’t found it boring, lacking soul, I can tell the difference between the models and it hasn’t broken down or failed me - not even once!
But then, what do I know??
rodericb said:
Matty3 said:
Turn7 said:
Matty3 said:
Wierd UK attitude to British success that they should not to be successful?
Standard isnt it ? Love the underdog then hate the successfull version it becomes.I think we have become quite a vindictive and unpleasant version of ourselves lately.
EK993 said:
It’s “group” mentality
It really isn't. I'm quite capable of thinking for myself. If I think that they all look alike and I have real difficulty in differentiating the various models then that's what I think regardless of what others may opine.
If I think that the one-tub-fits-all construction method is lazy and means the end result is very samey then that's down to my own thoughts.
If I think that using the same engine over and again is similar to how VAG operates and means a similarly predictable product range, then it's my thinking which has made that conclusion.
If I think that the numerous reports of questionable build quality issues and their subsequent effect on retained monetary value are a concern to any potential buyer on the used market then those are my own thoughts.
Other people may well have reached the same conclusions, but none have had a collective group-think to do so. And it's the independence of these thoughts and their respective agreement which should be of concern to McLaren.
Cold said:
It really isn't. I'm quite capable of thinking for myself.
If I think that they all look alike and I have real difficulty in differentiating the various models
No need to quote beyond this tbh; if you struggle to identify the difference between a 570S & a 720 then I'll weight my opinion of of your opinion accordinglyIf I think that they all look alike and I have real difficulty in differentiating the various models
Cold said:
If I think that the numerous reports of questionable build quality issues and their subsequent effect on retained monetary value are a concern to any potential buyer on the used market then those are my own thoughts.
Thoughts versus first hand real life experience to form an opinion with based on reality. Confirms what I said about “group” mentality and thinking. You have read it enough you now believe it and repeat it. Confirms my comments. Thanks. EK993 said:
Thoughts versus first hand real life experience to form an opinion with based on reality. Confirms what I said about “group” mentality and thinking. You have read it enough you now believe it and repeat it. Confirms my comments. Thanks.
Are you suggesting that you do no research when contemplating a car purchase? Cold said:
Are you suggesting that you do no research when contemplating a car purchase?
Yes but I generally don’t repeat opinion as fact which happens on these threads and was my point - poor reliability being the main example that gets stated as fact by others that have no first hand experience but just repeat it as they have read it countless times in every thread about McLarens. If it keeps getting repeated enough times by more and more people that don’t actually have any first hand experience - suddenly it’s fact.
Edited by EK993 on Saturday 16th May 01:59
Edited by EK993 on Saturday 16th May 02:23
EK993 said:
Yes but I generally don’t repeat opinion as fact - poor reliability being the main example that gets stated as fact by others that have no first hand experience. If it keeps getting repeated enough times by everyone that hears it without any experience - suddenly it’s fact.
You are making assumptions about what individuals have learned and how they have come by that information. Surely that is just as flawed as repeating opinion as fact?You don't need first hand experience to become aware of something and to conclude it is true. I've never dropped a bowling ball on my toe but speaking to those who have I conclude that it hurts. Reading reports of others who have had an unfortunate ball/toe interface shows me that this experience is not one to be relished.
Am I wrong to conclude I should avoid dropping a bowling ball on my toe or should I just do it myself to find out for sure?
Cold said:
You are making assumptions about what individuals have learned and how they have come by that information. Surely that is just as flawed as repeating opinion as fact?
You don't need first hand experience to become aware of something and to conclude it is true. I've never dropped a bowling ball on my toe but speaking to those who have I conclude that it hurts. Reading reports of others who have had an unfortunate ball/toe interface shows me that this experience is not one to be relished.
Am I wrong to conclude I should avoid dropping a bowling ball on my toe or should I just do it myself to find out for sure?
No that’s pretty much common sense - drop any heavy weight on your foot and it will hurt. Isn’t unique to a bowling bowl You don't need first hand experience to become aware of something and to conclude it is true. I've never dropped a bowling ball on my toe but speaking to those who have I conclude that it hurts. Reading reports of others who have had an unfortunate ball/toe interface shows me that this experience is not one to be relished.
Am I wrong to conclude I should avoid dropping a bowling ball on my toe or should I just do it myself to find out for sure?
EK993 said:
Cold said:
Are you suggesting that you do no research when contemplating a car purchase?
Yes but I generally don’t repeat opinion as fact which happens on these threads and was my point - poor reliability being the main example that gets stated as fact by others that have no first hand experience but just repeat it as they have read it countless times in every thread about McLarens. If it keeps getting repeated enough times by more and more people that don’t actually have any first hand experience - suddenly it’s fact.
Edited by EK993 on Saturday 16th May 01:59
Edited by EK993 on Saturday 16th May 02:23
so fortunate...
You can believe what you want but you have no reason to challenge the experience of a wider population.
Whilst I have driven a few, personally I wouldn't put any money into one.
I think Mclaren are fabulous- I’ve never owned (nor been in position to own!) one I do know someone that had an early MP4 which had couple of issues but still a fabulous drive.
I would find it sad seeing a British company go under, who wouldn’t?! Even if they have overseas investment.
Why criticise carbon tub- if it’s great why not use it across the board.... should they have something else for novelty value?! I think it’s widely regarded that they are superb to drive.
All the super car manufacturers have been overdoing special editions recently and why not when times were good. No one could have predicted this year, nor would any business be prepared for it.
Brand loyalty, hate against companies I find most odd unless you have detailed experience of the product.
I hope they survive and keep producing excellent motors along with racing and materials science and research.
I would find it sad seeing a British company go under, who wouldn’t?! Even if they have overseas investment.
Why criticise carbon tub- if it’s great why not use it across the board.... should they have something else for novelty value?! I think it’s widely regarded that they are superb to drive.
All the super car manufacturers have been overdoing special editions recently and why not when times were good. No one could have predicted this year, nor would any business be prepared for it.
Brand loyalty, hate against companies I find most odd unless you have detailed experience of the product.
I hope they survive and keep producing excellent motors along with racing and materials science and research.
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