Alpine A110 to be axed?

[blueg33]

Miserablegit said:

maz8062 said:

The best car for what exactly? For track work perhaps? For country road blasting at legal speeds perhaps? The question is what percentage of prospective owners even consider this? Not many I'd argue, and in the real world, these cars are much of muchness given the number of cars on the road and the heavy policing.

For example, I have 2 cars: A MY18 Tiguan for the family and an MY15 SLK 350 for "play" and occasional trips for work. The SLK has a V6 na engine with about 320bhp, sounds glorious and the roof comes off. The other day I looked at my trip meter for the last 1500 miles or so in the SLK: average mpg 26, average speed 20 mph! If I bought an Alpine how would the figure be different? mpg perhaps, but average speed, no. So why not consider a cheaper GT86/370z, or at this price point a Cayman or TTRS?

I come back to the marketing of this car. I think that is where it has gone wrong. Perhaps if they'd offered the car on a *special* lease deal at say 6x24 @ £300 per month - just to get punters into the car to appreciate its dynamics and spawn forums and the like waxing lyrical about how good the car is, how to make it go faster and what wheels to buy, etc. Alfa did precisely that for the 4c (although I'm not sure of the pricing)

Again for me, this car is not on my radar - I'm not tracking prices like I am with BMW 1m's or Alfa 4C's. Regardless of what the motoring press says, it is not a car that I'm hankering after nor do I think it ever will be. My loss I guess.

If you’re averaging 20mph then I agree a sports car is wasted in those circumstances.
Alpine have been selling well outside the UK and they didn’t feel the need to “do deals” to sell them here unlike Alfa.

I take your point on different views of the best car but this was never pushed as a track car - it’s a daily sportscar. As fluid as a Lotus and almost as practical as a Cayman.
In the UK it means enjoying speed limits of 70 mph (or 202 if you’re in an RS6)

The dealers have not invested a huge amount in branding over here- European dealers are Alpine specific sites. In the UK it merely involved shuffling a few Renaults/nissans/ Dacia to one side and hanging an Alpine banner up. I’d say that was done given the expectation of limited sales in the UK.

Indeed. They know that Alpine has always had limited success in the UK, so focused on the markets that offered low hanging fruit. Perhaps these are markets that are less badge obsessed, know a good thing when they see in and drive it,

Alpine had similar issues with the GTA and A610, both cars that had many good aspects as good as or better than others in the class. So they knew to barely bother with us.

[briSk]

blueg33 said:

Miserablegit said:

maz8062 said:

The best car for what exactly? For track work perhaps? For country road blasting at legal speeds perhaps? The question is what percentage of prospective owners even consider this? Not many I'd argue, and in the real world, these cars are much of muchness given the number of cars on the road and the heavy policing.

For example, I have 2 cars: A MY18 Tiguan for the family and an MY15 SLK 350 for "play" and occasional trips for work. The SLK has a V6 na engine with about 320bhp, sounds glorious and the roof comes off. The other day I looked at my trip meter for the last 1500 miles or so in the SLK: average mpg 26, average speed 20 mph! If I bought an Alpine how would the figure be different? mpg perhaps, but average speed, no. So why not consider a cheaper GT86/370z, or at this price point a Cayman or TTRS?

I come back to the marketing of this car. I think that is where it has gone wrong. Perhaps if they'd offered the car on a *special* lease deal at say 6x24 @ £300 per month - just to get punters into the car to appreciate its dynamics and spawn forums and the like waxing lyrical about how good the car is, how to make it go faster and what wheels to buy, etc. Alfa did precisely that for the 4c (although I'm not sure of the pricing)

Again for me, this car is not on my radar - I'm not tracking prices like I am with BMW 1m's or Alfa 4C's. Regardless of what the motoring press says, it is not a car that I'm hankering after nor do I think it ever will be. My loss I guess.

If you’re averaging 20mph then I agree a sports car is wasted in those circumstances.
Alpine have been selling well outside the UK and they didn’t feel the need to “do deals” to sell them here unlike Alfa.

I take your point on different views of the best car but this was never pushed as a track car - it’s a daily sportscar. As fluid as a Lotus and almost as practical as a Cayman.
In the UK it means enjoying speed limits of 70 mph (or 202 if you’re in an RS6)

The dealers have not invested a huge amount in branding over here- European dealers are Alpine specific sites. In the UK it merely involved shuffling a few Renaults/nissans/ Dacia to one side and hanging an Alpine banner up. I’d say that was done given the expectation of limited sales in the UK.

Indeed. They know that Alpine has always had limited success in the UK, so focused on the markets that offered low hanging fruit. Perhaps these are markets that are less badge obsessed, know a good thing when they see in and drive it,

Alpine had similar issues with the GTA and A610, both cars that had many good aspects as good as or better than others in the class. So they knew to barely bother with us.

the fact they went through with it and produce(d) a RHD model was a relatively big surprise to me. I suspect it's off the back of the UK being a good market for RS models that they thought it worth a punt.

[Miserablegit]

Yes, it was a huge surprise to me too but I’m glad they did. Must have been difficult getting that approved - can we make 140 RHD models initially?

On the basis it’s handbuilt anyway with a DCT gearbox perhaps it wasn’t a massive engineering issue - only needed space for 2 pedals but that’s massively oversimplifying it.

[TWPC]

limpsfield said:

The OP who brought this tragedy to the attention of PH drives a Volvo and a Citroen.

That is not meant as a dig.

Car manufacturers don't profit from cars that many admire, but don't actually buy.

Exactly.

Porsche is an exception in that it normally does make some profit on its admirable cars, albeit nothing like the margin on its popular cars,
But... Bugatti, Lambo, Maserati... all manufacturers of admirable cars that survive only because they are part of larger groups selling popular cars.

P.S. The OP intends to buy a fun car when the kids are off his hands but it just ain't feasible now...!

Edited by TWPC on Friday 22 May 11:17

[blueg33]

briSk said:

blueg33 said:

Miserablegit said:

maz8062 said:

The best car for what exactly? For track work perhaps? For country road blasting at legal speeds perhaps? The question is what percentage of prospective owners even consider this? Not many I'd argue, and in the real world, these cars are much of muchness given the number of cars on the road and the heavy policing.

For example, I have 2 cars: A MY18 Tiguan for the family and an MY15 SLK 350 for "play" and occasional trips for work. The SLK has a V6 na engine with about 320bhp, sounds glorious and the roof comes off. The other day I looked at my trip meter for the last 1500 miles or so in the SLK: average mpg 26, average speed 20 mph! If I bought an Alpine how would the figure be different? mpg perhaps, but average speed, no. So why not consider a cheaper GT86/370z, or at this price point a Cayman or TTRS?

I come back to the marketing of this car. I think that is where it has gone wrong. Perhaps if they'd offered the car on a *special* lease deal at say 6x24 @ £300 per month - just to get punters into the car to appreciate its dynamics and spawn forums and the like waxing lyrical about how good the car is, how to make it go faster and what wheels to buy, etc. Alfa did precisely that for the 4c (although I'm not sure of the pricing)

Again for me, this car is not on my radar - I'm not tracking prices like I am with BMW 1m's or Alfa 4C's. Regardless of what the motoring press says, it is not a car that I'm hankering after nor do I think it ever will be. My loss I guess.

If you’re averaging 20mph then I agree a sports car is wasted in those circumstances.
Alpine have been selling well outside the UK and they didn’t feel the need to “do deals” to sell them here unlike Alfa.

I take your point on different views of the best car but this was never pushed as a track car - it’s a daily sportscar. As fluid as a Lotus and almost as practical as a Cayman.
In the UK it means enjoying speed limits of 70 mph (or 202 if you’re in an RS6)

The dealers have not invested a huge amount in branding over here- European dealers are Alpine specific sites. In the UK it merely involved shuffling a few Renaults/nissans/ Dacia to one side and hanging an Alpine banner up. I’d say that was done given the expectation of limited sales in the UK.

Indeed. They know that Alpine has always had limited success in the UK, so focused on the markets that offered low hanging fruit. Perhaps these are markets that are less badge obsessed, know a good thing when they see in and drive it,

Alpine had similar issues with the GTA and A610, both cars that had many good aspects as good as or better than others in the class. So they knew to barely bother with us.

the fact they went through with it and produce(d) a RHD model was a relatively big surprise to me. I suspect it's off the back of the UK being a good market for RS models that they thought it worth a punt.

Japan, Australia etc are also right hand drive markets

[anonymous-user]

SidewaysSi said:

DeejRC said:

It looks st and costs £50k. End of.

I am the very definition of the Alpine’s target demographic. Kam and I are or have been part of that even smaller sub demographic from Donkey’s post of being the blokes who only run small impractical sports cars as our only cars. I’ve known the Alpine brand for nearly 40yrs and I can happily talk Alpine 110s on the Monte.

And it looks st and costs £50k.

Most of you are fairly average drivers. You are, you just don’t want to admit it. You wouldn’t know the difference between “a drivers car” and “not a drivers car” unless someone told you one was and another wasn’t. If that’s true for most car enthusiasts then think how true it is for the rest of the car buying demographic?

Cars are not bought for their “drivers car’ness”. Even drivers cars are not bought for that. They aren’t because A) most of you aren’t good enough to exploit the bit about the “drivers cars” which make them good “drivers cars” in the fairly limited context of where and when most of you drive. And B) because the vast vast majority of blokes with the disposal dosh to spend on a £50k sports car have wives & families expect them not to tt about exploiting the chassis characteristics of said motor when they should be doing more husband/dad stuff.
And you wife just asked Why the fk did you buy something that looks st? AND YOU SPENT HOW fkING MUCH??? WHAT DO YOU BLOODY MEAN ITS FRENCH???

Of course now I’m fat old and married I just do what Donkey says and run an SUV with my sports car. I have some of the best roads in the U.K. and during the last 2 months of the golden age of driving the roads have been perfectly clear of the rest of you fkwits. What did I take to the shops? The SUV. Because it’s just less hassle. And unlike 99.5% of you on this thread I just put 50,000 miles on my carbon fibre mid engined extremely impractical sports car in the last two years. But then my car looks like Sophia Loren giving blow jobs at 10yrds away. The Alpine looks st.

You obviously don't know a driver's car from the centre of his ass if you drive a 4C. I would rather be shot at than drive 25k miles in one.

What a joke.

You manage to be an even bigger tt than him above, which I quite an achievement.

[Fastdruid]

Ignoring that I can't afford one and it's only got two seats which would make picking two children up from school somewhat problematic, the lack of a manual option, a particularly interesting engine *and* it doesn't look particularly special combined with an outrageous price tag from a middling car manufacturer would make it a no.

Autocar have a list of 10 best affordable sports cars 2020 which it tops the list....but ignoring that I don't particularly think £50k should be considered affordable(!) I'd pick every single one of the other cars in the list over it.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/best-cars/top-1...

[Miserablegit]

blueg33 said:

Japan, Australia etc are also right hand drive markets

Australia, yes but it seems they were not in the initial allocation of 1955 cars. Their version of the PE was not specced the same. Different wheels at the very least.
I understand Japan‘s market is LHD for foreign sports cars as one PH’er has suggested it’s some bizarre show of exclusivity to be driving a car with the wheel on the wrong side.

[TWPC]

blueg33 said:

rockin said:

blueg33 said:

a. Weak marketing
b. Wrong badge
c. Marmite looks

a. Feeble excuse
b. Feeble excuse
c. Feeble excuse

I'm with Lexington - if they could have done a cheaper entry model to get punters into the showroom they might have been in with a chance of selling more cars. It's all about that product/price combination.

You are struggling with the nuances between reasons and excuses

Kia stinger, excellent car highly praised in reviews priced well below its competition, poor badge - poor sales

Porsche Cayenne (VW Toureg in a dress) - High prices for average car, but flashy marketing and right badge - enough sales to saves Porsche's proper cars

Surely the reason that the Alpine factory and potentially the A110 are under threat are because of the impact coronavirus is having on the global economy and specifically the structurally weak economics of car manufacturing in western Europe. i.e. There is massive overcapacity resulting in very low profitability and massive capital risk for most of the companies involved. Unfortunately cars are such complex products requiring huge supply chains that the industry employs so many Europeans that governments have felt obliged to intervene for decades now, preventing companies from reducing production capacity.

The potential closure of the Dieppe factory has nothing to do with whether A110 sales volumes will not reach 3,000 units; it's to do with the survival of Renault which, like all car companies, needs to cut costs drastically.

Urged by the French government, senior management will be looking for economies around the whole group. Three years ago the resurrection of Alpine as a halo brand was a good marketing investment which would hopefully pay back its R&D costs but was never going to be a major profit centre for the company. Today, in a coronavirus-ridden global economy when, for example, UK car sales fell 97% last month on April 2019's number and EVs were the two best selling vehicles, a glorious vanity project like Alpine is unjustifiable.

This is my guess for the reason why the Dieppe factory may close. I think it is a huge shame because I like cars and would love there to be more A110s in the world - I believe the principles of lightness and a function-specific chassis design (in the A110's case no convertible, small engine, ideal suspension) show the way forward for sports cars.

[ToastMan76]

Can we forget all these ‘price’ ‘gearbox’ ‘convertible’ arguments and agree that the main thing wrong with the car is those weird nostril lights.

[Miserablegit]

Fastdruid said:

Ignoring that I can't afford one and it's only got two seats which would make picking two children up from school somewhat problematic, the lack of a manual option, a particularly interesting engine *and* it doesn't look particularly special combined with an outrageous price tag from a middling car manufacturer would make it a no.

Autocar have a list of 10 best affordable sports cars 2020 which it tops the list....but ignoring that I don't particularly think £50k should be considered affordable(!) I'd pick every single one of the other cars in the list over it.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/best-cars/top-1...

What do you mean by “a middling car manufacturer”
Alpine is the only one building a bespoke aluminium platform for its coupe...
Whilst you might not agree with car reviews and I certainly don’t agree with all of them I’m not sure you can justify calling a car “middling” on the basis of all of the glowing reports.

You’re perfectly entitled not to like it but, as you’ve said yourself, you’re not in the market for one anyway so none of those manufacturers have sold a car to you which means Alpine haven’t lost a sale to you...

[Miserablegit]

ToastMan76 said:

Can we forget all these ‘price’ ‘gearbox’ ‘convertible’ arguments and agree that the main thing wrong with the car is those weird nostril lights.

No! To some of us that makes the car attractive.
Apes the old A110
I appreciate not everyone likes it though

[Fastdruid]

Miserablegit said:

What do you mean by “a middling car manufacturer”

Renault.

[Prestonese]

Fastdruid said:

Ignoring that I can't afford one and it's only got two seats which would make picking two children up from school somewhat problematic, the lack of a manual option, a particularly interesting engine *and* it doesn't look particularly special combined with an outrageous price tag from a middling car manufacturer would make it a no.

Autocar have a list of 10 best affordable sports cars 2020 which it tops the list....but ignoring that I don't particularly think £50k should be considered affordable(!) I'd pick every single one of the other cars in the list over it.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/best-cars/top-1...

To be fair, there are quite a few cars on that list which are as expensive as the Alpine. For me, I wouldn't consider the TT, Z4, Mustang, 718 Cayman/Boxster or Supra.

[Prestonese]

ToastMan76 said:

Can we forget all these ‘price’ ‘gearbox’ ‘convertible’ arguments and agree that the main thing wrong with the car is those weird nostril lights.

No. The infotainment system, slightly high seating position and the stupid engine hatch are much more annoying items.

[Miserablegit]

Agree on the engine hatch. PITA to open regularly to check levels.

[ntiz]

Alpine seem to be suffering from the same thing most do when coming up against Porsche.

Which In my mind is that Porsche is bloody good at selling cars to people who don’t actually like cars that much. I have the theory that if Porsche sold 10,000 911s only 1,000 to 2,000 are actually bought by real enthusiasts. The rest go to casual petrolheads who buy it because it’s the go to sports car when you have made it. That’s why they are successful and that’s okay it’s taken them years to build that position. Breaking it will take even longer.

If Porsche made a simple light weight sportscar called it the speedster they wouldn’t be able to make them fast enough.

It doesn’t matter to enthusiasts about brand but you seem to need to sell a few to punters to make a real success of it. By the sounds of it Alpine has actually been a success though in its small way. It’s a shame that when times get tough the niche sports car was always going to be the first thing in question.

They might be working on the assumption that if we go into recession sales will drop through the floor better to stop now whilst in profit?

[blueg33]

Miserablegit said:

blueg33 said:

Japan, Australia etc are also right hand drive markets

Australia, yes but it seems they were not in the initial allocation of 1955 cars. Their version of the PE was not specced the same. Different wheels at the very least.
I understand Japan‘s market is LHD for foreign sports cars as one PH’er has suggested it’s some bizarre show of exclusivity to be driving a car with the wheel on the wrong side.

Weird people sometimes.....

[Miserablegit]

blueg33 said:

Weird people sometimes.....

I’d agree with you but then I’d feel a hypocrite being in a country that claims to be full of car enthusiasts and yet we see that something is not popular “ ‘cos it won’t impress the neighbours”
People are just weird full stop

[Fastdruid]

Prestonese said:

Fastdruid said:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/best-cars/top-1...

To be fair, there are quite a few cars on that list which are as expensive as the Alpine. For me, I wouldn't consider the TT, Z4, Mustang, 718 Cayman/Boxster or Supra.

Well quite, starting list prices for that list are

1) £46,900
2) £50,500
3) £46,651/£44,790
4) £51,384
5) £23,530
6) £25,769
7) £47,750
8) £44,640
9) £53,325
10) £43,685

I would only really consider two on that list to be "affordable", you are after all talking twice the price of a "normal" car and close to double the UK average salary...but for arguments sake I was pretending that I would consider that affordable and that I was in the market for such a car.

I'd still pick it last.