Alpine A110 to be axed?
Discussion
Lexington59 said:
The new base Xenons are actually pretty good- I think you are comparing with the older cars which you needed to upgrade, in those days you were lucky to get two years' warranty thrown in.
BCR even with your owner blinkers on even you must see some areas for improvement. I do admire what they've tried to do but think it could have been so much more, with just a little refinement (marketing, price). I do admire your loyalty to the brand (is fairly unique) but a sense of balance and perspective can help give your arguments more credibility, as it is, they are not too far off becoming the ravings of a fundamentalist.
Just answer simple question how can you sensibly say that residuals are high because production is artificially restricted and on the other that they could have sold more with better marketing? You can't have it both ways!!!!! BCR even with your owner blinkers on even you must see some areas for improvement. I do admire what they've tried to do but think it could have been so much more, with just a little refinement (marketing, price). I do admire your loyalty to the brand (is fairly unique) but a sense of balance and perspective can help give your arguments more credibility, as it is, they are not too far off becoming the ravings of a fundamentalist.
And if you actual trawl my comments when I'm not talking to those determined to dismiss the Alpine irrationally, you will find I am critical of the car (and every car) using the words abysmal and leaves a lot to be desired on occasion. You won't even find me saying anywhere that its a better car than my 981S - just that I prefer it. I have absolutely no brand loyalty - I don't do brands, as I often state.
It's not me who is raving, just pointing out irrationality and the frequent simple falsehoods you, in particular, repeat.
Lexington59 said:
bcr5784 said:
Lexington59 said:
Targets were originally discussed earlier in thread. 718 base seats, lights are perfectly fine, base car comes with Xenons as standard but pay the 2 grand extra for LEDs if you wish and I'm sure many do, doesn't usually look so bad on monthly payments. Keyless ? No thanks, why make it easier to steal, I think they're thankfully one of the few who don't fit this unnecessary option as standard. Base car even comes with Nav and a digital radio these days, you really don't need to add anything at all.
Residuals - yes they're certainly interesting but with such a restricted supply all these cars should be much better than average. I actually see the base manual 718 being slightly better (difference is minimal) but depends on which index you're currently using.
The lease deals and PCP never seemed that competitive though, which may be another area to address, if they get the chance.
Targets have been discussed at length - you seem to be manufacturing completely nonsense figures to suit your arguments rather than the figures that Alpine have quoted. Some of us who have us who have waited 18 months for our cars have kept our fingers on Alpines pulse.Residuals - yes they're certainly interesting but with such a restricted supply all these cars should be much better than average. I actually see the base manual 718 being slightly better (difference is minimal) but depends on which index you're currently using.
The lease deals and PCP never seemed that competitive though, which may be another area to address, if they get the chance.
Have you actually owned a Cayman with standard seats and Xenons - I suspect not. I have and the seats were a repeated source of criticism in the family - and the lights are feeble.
You can't have both ways on the one hand saying (as you repeatedly have) that the sales have been artificially restricted - and on the other that they could have sold a lot more doing what you said! It's contradictory nonsense.
BCR even with your owner blinkers on even you must see some areas for improvement. I do admire what they've tried to do but think it could have been so much more, with just a little refinement (marketing, price). I do admire your loyalty to the brand (is fairly unique) but a sense of balance and perspective can help give your arguments more credibility, as it is, they are not too far off becoming the ravings of a fundamentalist.
The posters on here understand the issues Alpine have and they have all made it clear. It's not a perfect brand nor is the A110 a perfect car by any means but it's a damn fine one nonetheless. What I find more surprising is posters coming on these threads making the usual broad statements or arguments which aren't logical. Opinions are fine but quite often it's not clear to me what point they are making. It's not as though the Alpine guys go on the GT4 / GTS / Spyder threads making criticisms all day. Those cars are flawed too in each of their own ways and I'm sure owners are aware of that. It's just a waste of time going on and on and on and on about it.
I know quite a few Alpine owners by the way and they are incredibly smart and understand their cars incredibly well and are hugely successful individuals. It's certainly a much nicer and more intellectual crowd than the Porsche ones based on my experience.
I love Porsches but it's not the be all and end all and I would rather be open minded about it. If someone was sprouting rubbish about a Porsche I'd probably correct them too. It's not just an Alpine thing.
DoubleD said:
You always get that on these threads.
You cannot criticise, everything is perfect. It makes for amusing reading thats for sure.
You are more than welcome to criticise - heck there are things I hated about the Alpine which I don't want to go over and over and over and over again as it's bloody boring don't you think? When guys try to end the discussion on this thread each time with yeah, but I'd never buy a manual or the headlights are gash or French things always break, it's hardly a constructive debate is it?You cannot criticise, everything is perfect. It makes for amusing reading thats for sure.
Edited by Prestonese on Saturday 23 May 14:27
I’m not sure what else Alpine could have done.
They produced a bespoke chassis/body to ensure the car was lightweight and handled well.
They made it quicker than the base Boxster and quicker to 80 than the S
They priced it alongside the base Boxster but gave it a good level of standard kit which means they can’t be making much on it given the expense of the alloy body.
Anyone who thinks they should have made it available at £30k is a lunatic.
They sold well in Europe. Alpine never expected to sell many in the U.K. because they know the place is full of weirdos and halfwits and they’ve had the years of experience of selling (or not) the previous generations of Alpines. As I’ve said before the fact that the dealerships are very low-key “corner of the Renault showroom” shows they didn’t anticipate the sales would justify massive investment. I know there is a chicken/egg argument but the views expounded on here show that it would not sell a large volume in the UK because “it is not a Porsche”.
They produced a bespoke chassis/body to ensure the car was lightweight and handled well.
They made it quicker than the base Boxster and quicker to 80 than the S
They priced it alongside the base Boxster but gave it a good level of standard kit which means they can’t be making much on it given the expense of the alloy body.
Anyone who thinks they should have made it available at £30k is a lunatic.
They sold well in Europe. Alpine never expected to sell many in the U.K. because they know the place is full of weirdos and halfwits and they’ve had the years of experience of selling (or not) the previous generations of Alpines. As I’ve said before the fact that the dealerships are very low-key “corner of the Renault showroom” shows they didn’t anticipate the sales would justify massive investment. I know there is a chicken/egg argument but the views expounded on here show that it would not sell a large volume in the UK because “it is not a Porsche”.
rockin said:
Prestonese said:
Not every brand has to be like Porsche who are increasingly just prolific money makers.Let's face it, they have increasingly become cynical as a manufacturer and there are plenty more things I dislike about the Porsche brand than the Alpine one.
How dare they sell real sports cars to real customers and make money. It's an outrage!And those nasty Japanese fellows at Mazda - they're just as bad!
As for Trump and those darned Americans - the sheer gall of launching a mid-engine V8 and taking 40,000 orders. How very dare they!
Mazda is a bit of a different kettle of fish. They are profitable and love them for their offbeat attitude to engineering. The MX5 is a great car but it also has plenty of flaws and the marketing and dealer network is terrible for such a large brand. The MX5 though has benefitted from a loyal cult following over the last 25-30 years which is quite helpful for keeping the model going. It's not certain they will continue with the MX5 though for a number of reasons.
I've owned an ND2 by the way. It's a fantastic car - the best thing about it is the simplicity. It's fun but it's not a patch on the A110.
DoubleD said:
Miserablegit said:
Alpine never expected to sell many in the U.K. because they know the place is full of weirdos and halfwits
Comments like this make alpine owners sound like rather unpleasant individuals. You would be better sticking to facts.Prestonese said:
DoubleD said:
Miserablegit said:
Alpine never expected to sell many in the U.K. because they know the place is full of weirdos and halfwits
Comments like this make alpine owners sound like rather unpleasant individuals. You would be better sticking to facts.bcr5784 said:
Lexington59 said:
The new base Xenons are actually pretty good- I think you are comparing with the older cars which you needed to upgrade, in those days you were lucky to get two years' warranty thrown in.
BCR even with your owner blinkers on even you must see some areas for improvement. I do admire what they've tried to do but think it could have been so much more, with just a little refinement (marketing, price). I do admire your loyalty to the brand (is fairly unique) but a sense of balance and perspective can help give your arguments more credibility, as it is, they are not too far off becoming the ravings of a fundamentalist.
Just answer simple question how can you sensibly say that residuals are high because production is artificially restricted and on the other that they could have sold more with better marketing? You can't have it both ways!!!!! BCR even with your owner blinkers on even you must see some areas for improvement. I do admire what they've tried to do but think it could have been so much more, with just a little refinement (marketing, price). I do admire your loyalty to the brand (is fairly unique) but a sense of balance and perspective can help give your arguments more credibility, as it is, they are not too far off becoming the ravings of a fundamentalist.
Point on supply concerns the sector vs say a true volume brand like BMW which sold 170k cars during 2019, there is a reason why a base 3 series has a residual closer to 40% or a Vauxhall at lower than 39% vs the late 60s for these, discounting not withstanding.
The whole sports compact sector is a tiny, tiny proportion of the overall market, and the residuals of both cars will reflect that. What is interesting here is that Porsche have sold vastly more cars, and the residuals are still comparatively high. Why is this ? Well for the very good reason, and the other balancing side of that price / supply equation that you know very well. Good marketing feeds strong demand and this is where I feel the Alpine really let itself down. Re-tweak the price slightly as well and wow- we can only imagine could have been.
Lexington59 said:
The whole sports compact sector is a tiny, tiny proportion of the overall market, and the residuals of both cars will reflect that. What is interesting here is that Porsche have sold vastly more cars, and the residuals are still comparatively high. Why is this ? Well for the very good reason, and the other balancing side of that price / supply equation that you know very well. Good marketing feeds strong demand and this is where I feel the Alpine really let itself down. Re-tweak the price slightly as well and wow- we can only imagine could have been.
problem is that Porsche don't make light cars anymore. they've refined their offering over time and made it not only very good, but even profitable. even then i'm not sure how profitable the cars are, i suspect the suvs are way more profitable but as many costs are shared the cars are just fine. demand is strong for these types of products - just look at the Civic thread currently where people are ecstatic about a1500kg hatch and only hope the next one has 4k oled infotainment screen!! Alpine did something that as an enthusiast i appreciate, but the market doesn't want. The A110 cannot cost 35k, it isn't a simple pressed steel shell with struts up front.what i find strange about threads like this is the nigh celebration of high tech great cars failing commercially, rather than challenging people on this site of all places to buy sports cars and not contrasting stitching. (or even 4k res sat nav screens).
the "problem" is mostly demand i think. of course manufacturers have to sell at a profit, i just think PH should be more evangelistic about driving cars.
Miserablegit said:
So, ignoring costs, what magic price point would you have put the A110 at?
If you can get the main marketing message across well enough I'm not sure it matters as much. But to do no marketing and also try to sell at a higher headline price than the main competition seems like either a massive oversight, or massive overconfidence, neither of which bode well for continued sales.Lexington59 said:
Come on BCR, even by your standards that is a very simplistic analysis.
Point on supply concerns the sector vs say a true volume brand like BMW which sold 170k cars during 2019, there is a reason why a base 3 series has a residual closer to 40% or a Vauxhall at lower than 39% vs the late 60s for these, discounting not withstanding.
The whole sports compact sector is a tiny, tiny proportion of the overall market, and the residuals of both cars will reflect that. What is interesting here is that Porsche have sold vastly more cars, and the residuals are still comparatively high. Why is this ? Well for the very good reason, and the other balancing side of that price / supply equation that you know very well. Good marketing feeds strong demand and this is where I feel the Alpine really let itself down. Re-tweak the price slightly as well and wow- we can only imagine could have been.
You keep ignoring the fact that production couldn't keep up with demand until the end of 2019. How many times do I have to say that before you cotton on? More demand is useless unless you can increase supply. Why on earth would you reduce the price in those circumstances?Point on supply concerns the sector vs say a true volume brand like BMW which sold 170k cars during 2019, there is a reason why a base 3 series has a residual closer to 40% or a Vauxhall at lower than 39% vs the late 60s for these, discounting not withstanding.
The whole sports compact sector is a tiny, tiny proportion of the overall market, and the residuals of both cars will reflect that. What is interesting here is that Porsche have sold vastly more cars, and the residuals are still comparatively high. Why is this ? Well for the very good reason, and the other balancing side of that price / supply equation that you know very well. Good marketing feeds strong demand and this is where I feel the Alpine really let itself down. Re-tweak the price slightly as well and wow- we can only imagine could have been.
Whilst waiting for that magic figure let us not lose sight of the fact that it’s a tiny market for these cars in Europe.
Even the most popular seller , the TT, only sold 8500.
Alpine sold 4400 and Porsche sold 3480 Cayman.
Massive marketing campaigns cost money. Even if Alpine was only spending £8m a year that’s almost £2000 per car.
Porsche make 15% average profit per vehicle.
I’d guess it was slightly less with the Cayster, so let’s say 12%. Porsche are the most profitable per unit.
Even if Alpine are making a profit of 10% per car and I doubt they are then at a list price of £46k that’s only £4600 profit. If we take off £2000 for an £8m marketing budget then it drops to £2600 profit which is 5.6%.
To keep the price competitive costs need to be lower. If you are using an expensive bespoke platform then it leaves less for marketing. I know which I prefer - a car where the money has gone on engineering rather than something driven by orange people on tv.
By creating a great car Alpine got plenty of exposure in the UK and beyond. They won plenty of awards and so I struggle to imagine the reason people buying a £50k sportscar in the U.K. didn’t buy one was down to them not knowing about it...there will be a few, sure, but surely even the least knowledgeable would google
“best sportscar £50k“ before buying anything ?
Try it...
Even the most popular seller , the TT, only sold 8500.
Alpine sold 4400 and Porsche sold 3480 Cayman.
Massive marketing campaigns cost money. Even if Alpine was only spending £8m a year that’s almost £2000 per car.
Porsche make 15% average profit per vehicle.
I’d guess it was slightly less with the Cayster, so let’s say 12%. Porsche are the most profitable per unit.
Even if Alpine are making a profit of 10% per car and I doubt they are then at a list price of £46k that’s only £4600 profit. If we take off £2000 for an £8m marketing budget then it drops to £2600 profit which is 5.6%.
To keep the price competitive costs need to be lower. If you are using an expensive bespoke platform then it leaves less for marketing. I know which I prefer - a car where the money has gone on engineering rather than something driven by orange people on tv.
By creating a great car Alpine got plenty of exposure in the UK and beyond. They won plenty of awards and so I struggle to imagine the reason people buying a £50k sportscar in the U.K. didn’t buy one was down to them not knowing about it...there will be a few, sure, but surely even the least knowledgeable would google
“best sportscar £50k“ before buying anything ?
Try it...
Miserablegit said:
So, ignoring costs, what magic price point would you have put the A110 at?
What does that ^^ mean "ignoring costs"?You can't ignore costs! I suspect that the price of the Apline is pretty close to the minimum it could be and to stay profitable! Any one can sell a car at a loss, for what ever reason they want, but ultimately, they won't do it for very long before going bust.......
the "Problem" if there is one, is that today we expect our cars to be, yes, primarily means of transport, but also so much more. We want to be safe, comfortable, with lots of toys, we want the car to look good, to be reliable, to even have an aspiration badge on the front. Ideally it won't be too environmentally damaging, and doing decent MPG is nice, and if it had enough room to get the kids in, and our luggage for when we go on our holibobs, and it needs to be easy to drive, and ft both me (6.2) and the wife (5.1) and be easy to park. Decent stereo too please, oh and really easy to use satnav, of and good headlights so driving at night is easy, and i'd like a bit of safety tech too, like lane assist or auto brake etc.
And thanks to the modern system of mass production, you CAN actually have ALL that in a car, and it cost a reasonable amount of money. The typical £35k BMW, or Merc, or Volvo or Ford, or Renault, or whatever do that. They leverage massive economys of scale to present buyers with what is actually terrific value for money.
This unfortunately leaves anything that can't leverage those economys of scale looking, frankly, expensive for what you get. A mazda Mx-5 is affordable in a way the A110 isn't because it sacrifices "special" for "average" and "performance" for "cost". If you made an Alpine that cost what an Mx-5 cost, it would be, well, another Mx-5.
THIS is the problem imo, for all modern sports cars, and the more niche they are, the worse the problem becomes.....
I think one of the reasons, as mentioned by a poster pages ago and given by him for not buying one even if he did have the money, was it wouldn’t impress the neighbours.
Much as that view seems tragic, contemporary society does seem to be based around a “look at me, look at me” ethos.
I’d say the Alpine marketing has reached most if not all potential buyers but for some people it is important the man in the street needs to know what it is and what it cost so he can be impressed.
Perhaps Alpine can put stickers in the boot for the owner to apply to the doors “This is an Alpine sports car. It’s brilliant and it cost me £50,000 so it means I’m better than you”
Of course that runs the risk of the owner of an S turning up with his own stickers that say “Alpine S so I’m better than all of you” which works fine until a 911 owner with monogrammed headrest and mother of pearl dash inlays turns up in an even more expensive car...
I don’t know how I’d cope...
Much as that view seems tragic, contemporary society does seem to be based around a “look at me, look at me” ethos.
I’d say the Alpine marketing has reached most if not all potential buyers but for some people it is important the man in the street needs to know what it is and what it cost so he can be impressed.
Perhaps Alpine can put stickers in the boot for the owner to apply to the doors “This is an Alpine sports car. It’s brilliant and it cost me £50,000 so it means I’m better than you”
Of course that runs the risk of the owner of an S turning up with his own stickers that say “Alpine S so I’m better than all of you” which works fine until a 911 owner with monogrammed headrest and mother of pearl dash inlays turns up in an even more expensive car...
I don’t know how I’d cope...
Edited by Miserablegit on Saturday 23 May 15:36
Lexington59 said:
bcr5784 said:
Lexington59 said:
The new base Xenons are actually pretty good- I think you are comparing with the older cars which you needed to upgrade, in those days you were lucky to get two years' warranty thrown in.
BCR even with your owner blinkers on even you must see some areas for improvement. I do admire what they've tried to do but think it could have been so much more, with just a little refinement (marketing, price). I do admire your loyalty to the brand (is fairly unique) but a sense of balance and perspective can help give your arguments more credibility, as it is, they are not too far off becoming the ravings of a fundamentalist.
Just answer simple question how can you sensibly say that residuals are high because production is artificially restricted and on the other that they could have sold more with better marketing? You can't have it both ways!!!!! BCR even with your owner blinkers on even you must see some areas for improvement. I do admire what they've tried to do but think it could have been so much more, with just a little refinement (marketing, price). I do admire your loyalty to the brand (is fairly unique) but a sense of balance and perspective can help give your arguments more credibility, as it is, they are not too far off becoming the ravings of a fundamentalist.
Point on supply concerns the sector vs say a true volume brand like BMW which sold 170k cars during 2019, there is a reason why a base 3 series has a residual closer to 40% or a Vauxhall at lower than 39% vs the late 60s for these, discounting not withstanding.
The whole sports compact sector is a tiny, tiny proportion of the overall market, and the residuals of both cars will reflect that. What is interesting here is that Porsche have sold vastly more cars, and the residuals are still comparatively high. Why is this ? Well for the very good reason, and the other balancing side of that price / supply equation that you know very well. Good marketing feeds strong demand and this is where I feel the Alpine really let itself down. Re-tweak the price slightly as well and wow- we can only imagine could have been.
Max_Torque said:
What does that ^^ mean "ignoring costs"?
You can't ignore costs! I suspect that the price of the Apline is pretty close to the minimum it could be and to stay profitable! Any one can sell a car at a loss, for what ever reason they want, but ultimately, they won't do it for very long before going bust.......
The previous poster had suggested the price should have been lower to attract more buyers. I just wanted to know what price point he thought it should be pitched at. You can't ignore costs! I suspect that the price of the Apline is pretty close to the minimum it could be and to stay profitable! Any one can sell a car at a loss, for what ever reason they want, but ultimately, they won't do it for very long before going bust.......
It is my view, in line with yours it seems, that the Alpine is priced as low as it can be to still turn a profit.
There are still a few on PH that seem to think it should be possible to sell them at £35k
Lexington59 said:
Miserablegit said:
So, ignoring costs, what magic price point would you have put the A110 at?
If you can get the main marketing message across well enough I'm not sure it matters as much. But to do no marketing and also try to sell at a higher headline price than the main competition seems like either a massive oversight, or massive overconfidence, neither of which bode well for continued sales.bcr5784 said:
Lexington59 said:
Come on BCR, even by your standards that is a very simplistic analysis.
Point on supply concerns the sector vs say a true volume brand like BMW which sold 170k cars during 2019, there is a reason why a base 3 series has a residual closer to 40% or a Vauxhall at lower than 39% vs the late 60s for these, discounting not withstanding.
The whole sports compact sector is a tiny, tiny proportion of the overall market, and the residuals of both cars will reflect that. What is interesting here is that Porsche have sold vastly more cars, and the residuals are still comparatively high. Why is this ? Well for the very good reason, and the other balancing side of that price / supply equation that you know very well. Good marketing feeds strong demand and this is where I feel the Alpine really let itself down. Re-tweak the price slightly as well and wow- we can only imagine could have been.
You keep ignoring the fact that production couldn't keep up with demand until the end of 2019. How many times do I have to say that before you cotton on? More demand is useless unless you can increase supply. Why on earth would you reduce the price in those circumstances?Point on supply concerns the sector vs say a true volume brand like BMW which sold 170k cars during 2019, there is a reason why a base 3 series has a residual closer to 40% or a Vauxhall at lower than 39% vs the late 60s for these, discounting not withstanding.
The whole sports compact sector is a tiny, tiny proportion of the overall market, and the residuals of both cars will reflect that. What is interesting here is that Porsche have sold vastly more cars, and the residuals are still comparatively high. Why is this ? Well for the very good reason, and the other balancing side of that price / supply equation that you know very well. Good marketing feeds strong demand and this is where I feel the Alpine really let itself down. Re-tweak the price slightly as well and wow- we can only imagine could have been.
The bottom line is you don't can the product lines that make a healthy profit. As it is, Covid probably puts paid to demand for a while irrespective, but perhaps they can just put the car on hiatus why they re-tweak the UK marketing strategy...
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