Alpine A110 to be axed?

Alpine A110 to be axed?

Author
Discussion

Prestonese

793 posts

104 months

Saturday 30th May 2020
quotequote all
Wooda80 said:
Prestonese said:
Another positive press review would be more useful to its survival than an article which makes speculations about what will happen to it. At least in my view. I'd personally prefer they did not go down the electric only route for the sake of saving the brand.
Not intended as a dig at Prestonese as I can appreciate his point of view, but I wonder if there were people back in the 60s writing about how firms like Rolls Royce and Bentley shouldn't go down the route of monocoque construction 'if only for the sake of saving the brand'.

Sure you get period where the new tech is scorned but before too long it becomes inconceivable that the old tech could ever have continued.
I'd imagine that sort of chassis development was less of a step change to the character of a car than going full electric even if the manufacturer needed to change production methods significantly. Going electric also requires a significant change to user behavious. I really don't know much about this topic to say more than that.

bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Saturday 30th May 2020
quotequote all
Prestonese said:
I'd imagine that sort of chassis development was less of a step change to the character of a car than going full electric even if the manufacturer needed to change production methods significantly. Going electric also requires a significant change to user behavious. I really don't know much about this topic to say more than that.
I would like Alpine to go hybrid first. Only a small battery and small range - but nice fill-in torque to pretty much eliminate the current (fairly mild) turbo lag. If that gives good emission figures and a modest weight penaly I'd consider that a result.

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Saturday 30th May 2020
quotequote all


bcr5784 said:
I would like Alpine to go hybrid first. Only a small battery and small range - but nice fill-in torque to pretty much eliminate the current (fairly mild) turbo lag. If that gives good emission figures and a modest weight penaly I'd consider that a result.
At a glance, that sounds like a good idea.

Traditional behaviour (ie: filling up at petrol stations) is maintained. Incremental cost (to build the vehicle) can be somewhat restrained. All whilst benefiting from that "100 percent torque at zero RPM" characteristic of the electric motor. On a situational or part-time basis only, of course.

And this echoes somewhat the particular order of priority cited by some industry insiders:

“The objective is not electrification, per se, but improving fuel efficiency."
https://www.carscoops.com/2019/12/honda-ceo-bucks-...

"...we need to be able to go step by step ­– gasoline to hybrid to plugin..."
https://electrek.co/2019/11/25/interview-toyotas-s...



bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
unsprung said:
At a glance, that sounds like a good idea.

Traditional behaviour (ie: filling up at petrol stations) is maintained. Incremental cost (to build the vehicle) can be somewhat restrained. All whilst benefiting from that "100 percent torque at zero RPM" characteristic of the electric motor. On a situational or part-time basis only, of course.

And this echoes somewhat the particular order of priority cited by some industry insiders:

“The objective is not electrification, per se, but improving fuel efficiency."
https://www.carscoops.com/2019/12/honda-ceo-bucks-...

"...we need to be able to go step by step ­– gasoline to hybrid to plugin..."
https://electrek.co/2019/11/25/interview-toyotas-s...
The fact that the forthcoming Getrag DCT400 specifically supports hybridization as well as allowing 400nm of torque is very attractive. I believe it is the same size as the current DCT300, so I would hope it would fit - it probably all depends on how the starter/generator integrates.

Prestonese

793 posts

104 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
bcr5784 said:
Prestonese said:
I'd imagine that sort of chassis development was less of a step change to the character of a car than going full electric even if the manufacturer needed to change production methods significantly. Going electric also requires a significant change to user behavious. I really don't know much about this topic to say more than that.
I would like Alpine to go hybrid first. Only a small battery and small range - but nice fill-in torque to pretty much eliminate the current (fairly mild) turbo lag. If that gives good emission figures and a modest weight penaly I'd consider that a result.
My only concern with that approach is the market for hybrid sports cars hasn't been great. The i8 and NSX weren't well received for example. Granted they are in a different price range and consumer tastes may yet develop for them but I don't have much confidence it will.

DonkeyApple

54,925 posts

168 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
With the speedy shift in legislation in almost every affluent urban environment on the planet then any manufacturer who wants to keep selling unnecessary toys to people with money to burn is going to have to incorporate hybridisation to meet those legislative requirements. All sports cars are going to have to be capable of running emissionless for 30+ miles.

Interestingly, this doesn’t feel like a cultural problem for sports cars which already run 4 pots as they can keep shrinking the petrol engine and expanding the electric side with legislation but it’s going to surely be a cultural hurdle for things like the V8 sports cars, or similar, where it’s more of a step change in the tangible feelnof the product to go from a big cc, multiple cylinder engine to a small 4 pot and an EV element?


Equus

16,770 posts

100 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
craigjm said:
Rumours of Alpine’s death may have been exaggerated

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/alpine...

Who knows
the article said:
Renault has to “look very, very seriously” at the future of the Alpine brand, according to the firm’s chairman
That's very lightly disguised corporate speak for 'they're fked'.

I mean, it's not like when a politician or football club management says that an underling 'has their full support'. They're not even pretending to be positive about its chances.

DonkeyApple

54,925 posts

168 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
Plus the hospital pass to the incoming head suggests that the outgoing didn’t want the action on his CV.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
Interestingly, this doesn’t feel like a cultural problem for sports cars which already run 4 pots as they can keep shrinking the petrol engine and expanding the electric side with legislation but it’s going to surely be a cultural hurdle for things like the V8 sports cars, or similar, where it’s more of a step change in the tangible feel of the product to go from a big cc, multiple cylinder engine to a small 4 pot and an EV element?
I've been interested to see that the new mid-engine Corvette is starting out with a conventional V8 in the back. The cultural shock of changing engine position is probably enough on its own! However, I'm convinced a large part of moving the engine was to allow electrification of the front wheels. So once people have got used to the shape of the car GM can start fiddling around with 6-pots, 4-pots or whatever in the back and ramp up electrification, possibly to all 4 wheels. It will be fascinating to see how things develop.

CABC

5,533 posts

100 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
rockin said:
I've been interested to see that the new mid-engine Corvette is starting out with a conventional V8 in the back. The cultural shock of changing engine position is probably enough on its own! However, I'm convinced a large part of moving the engine was to allow electrification of the front wheels. So once people have got used to the shape of the car GM can start fiddling around with 6-pots, 4-pots or whatever in the back and ramp up electrification, possibly to all 4 wheels. It will be fascinating to see how things develop.
interesting thought.
electric to the front is problematic for a sports car. you want torque fed to the rear to adjust your line, a key part of the experience. even the Rav 4 hybrid has a punchy electric motor at the rear (ok, maybe that's packaging).
maybe the 'vette goes full 4wd? or has a city/cruise mode for fwd electric?

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
CABC said:
rockin said:
I've been interested to see that the new mid-engine Corvette is starting out with a conventional V8 in the back. The cultural shock of changing engine position is probably enough on its own! However, I'm convinced a large part of moving the engine was to allow electrification of the front wheels. So once people have got used to the shape of the car GM can start fiddling around with 6-pots, 4-pots or whatever in the back and ramp up electrification, possibly to all 4 wheels. It will be fascinating to see how things develop.
interesting thought.
electric to the front is problematic for a sports car. you want torque fed to the rear to adjust your line, a key part of the experience. even the Rav 4 hybrid has a punchy electric motor at the rear (ok, maybe that's packaging).
maybe the 'vette goes full 4wd? or has a city/cruise mode for fwd electric?
That's not particularly true.

You are more likely to reach the tractive limits of tyres at low road speed (few cars can spin the wheels at say 100mph) so using a high torque but low overall power eMachine on the front axle gives instant and very controlable transient drive to that axle. Once you are already accelerating hard, then there is little point in driving the front axle, because dynamic weight transfer has unloaded that axle already. For maximum low speed traction you set your torque bias to match your static mass distribution, but once accelerating you must derate the front axle to avoid excessive slip. For a rear/mid engined car, then having a small electrical assistance to the front axle to boost low speed dynamics and maximise longitudinal acceleration makes a lot of sense. And of course, with your eMachine on the front axle, you can best leverage regen braking, because there is only so much regen you can do off the rear axle before you have to turn it down to maintain yaw stability.

CABC

5,533 posts

100 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
That's not particularly true.

You are more likely to reach the tractive limits of tyres at low road speed (few cars can spin the wheels at say 100mph) so using a high torque but low overall power eMachine on the front axle gives instant and very controlable transient drive to that axle. Once you are already accelerating hard, then there is little point in driving the front axle, because dynamic weight transfer has unloaded that axle already. For maximum low speed traction you set your torque bias to match your static mass distribution, but once accelerating you must derate the front axle to avoid excessive slip. For a rear/mid engined car, then having a small electrical assistance to the front axle to boost low speed dynamics and maximise longitudinal acceleration makes a lot of sense. And of course, with your eMachine on the front axle, you can best leverage regen braking, because there is only so much regen you can do off the rear axle before you have to turn it down to maintain yaw stability.
help me understand.
i like rwd for the feel of rotation and however hamfistedly, the control of that rotation. are you proposing that once up and running the front axle would be free rolling? or would it be controlled by selectable driving mode? do you think the vette would be able to drive 30miles as fwd electric only, or would this just be an overall efficiency effort with the ICE always on?

in the P1 was the hybrid power combined then delivered to the wheels? hence "filling in the torque". whereas separate power sources for each angle presents different challenges / opportunities.

NDNDNDND

2,001 posts

182 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
rockin said:
I've been interested to see that the new mid-engine Corvette is starting out with a conventional V8 in the back. The cultural shock of changing engine position is probably enough on its own! However, I'm convinced a large part of moving the engine was to allow electrification of the front wheels. So once people have got used to the shape of the car GM can start fiddling around with 6-pots, 4-pots or whatever in the back and ramp up electrification, possibly to all 4 wheels. It will be fascinatingdepressing to see how things develop.
FTFY

blue_haddock

3,143 posts

66 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
Saw my first Alpine out in the wild today.

Looked kind of OK but a bit awkward from certain angles.

craigjm

17,909 posts

199 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
Schmed said:
Keep up at the back we posted that on Friday hehe

HighwayStar

4,216 posts

143 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
craigjm said:
Schmed said:
Keep up at the back we posted that on Friday hehe
Schmed... off the pace again, tut tut wink
Couldn’t resist, hope you’ve had a good weekend. smile

David87

6,648 posts

211 months

Sunday 31st May 2020
quotequote all
Saw an A110 on the road for the first time today, in that blue colour they all seem to be. Looked okay, but still a little awkward I think. Nice four-ring LED daytime running lamps though.

DonkeyApple

54,925 posts

168 months

Monday 1st June 2020
quotequote all
On a slightly separate note, what is it that is making modern mid engined sports cars look so dumpy?

Is it legislative restrictions on design that are the reason or something more subtle like having to make access easier for the target demographic?

Even when they paint an instep between the wheels to create an illusion of slimness many still seem very chunky compared to their ancestors.

Even Ferrari’s of the last couple of generations have started to look ‘Vegas’ in more than just the glitz.

SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

252 months

Monday 1st June 2020
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
On a slightly separate note, what is it that is making modern mid engined sports cars look so dumpy?

Is it legislative restrictions on design that are the reason or something more subtle like having to make access easier for the target demographic?

Even when they paint an instep between the wheels to create an illusion of slimness many still seem very chunky compared to their ancestors.

Even Ferrari’s of the last couple of generations have started to look ‘Vegas’ in more than just the glitz.
The lower the stylists make the front, the further the pedestrian protection impact requirements stretch up the bonnet, so there's an engineering reason (not a styling reason) to want a higher, bluffer front.

If the 'head' of the test 'dummy' reaches the rear edge of the bonnet, the scuttle, wipers etc, that's a major headache (sorry) for the engineers. They need vertical space under the bonnet to pass the test, and that's all adding height to the front of the car.

Then once you're high at the front, you've got to carry that high waistline all the way to the back, or it looks odd.