Real Good Number Plates Vol. 6

Real Good Number Plates Vol. 6

Author
Discussion

Sir Bagalot

5,334 posts

136 months

Saturday 27th June
quotequote all
CRA1G said:
rowd1284 said:
IAINSMITH said:
Much more likely, in my opinion, is that 1 AN, was a special one-off, issued yonks ago by some flexible civil servant to one of the old boys as a private number.

Said plate's owner (who had it attached to the Morris Minor) failed to update/maintain its registration by the new computerised system's deadline, and, subsequently, it was routinely re-registered to the car under the new system (in 1984) as a non-transferable plate.

Sorry for my last two long posts, but I find it interesting even if nobody else does!
Interesting theory...? However I would question your point regarding the computerised deadline system. DVLA changed the registration system in Aug 1983 at which the new V5 replaced the old style log books. DVAL gave an ammesty iirc for six months to which you could apply to register any vehicle that didn't have the old style log book,so many old vehicles,motorbikes agricultural etc were put into the new system,to do this you sent DVLA the details of the vehicle and DVLA would contact the local police authority who then sent someone from the stolen vehicle squad to inspect and check the chassis number and if they were happy everything was correct would inform DVLA who would then issue a new V5. All these numbers were transferable. DVLA Did not routinely re-register numbers without the above prosses any numbers that were not inspected at the end of the amnesty were lost for good so " 1 AN " can't have been routinely re-registerd.
I spoke briefly to the new owner a couple of months back. Not even he knows the history of how it cam eto be assigned to the moggy.

One thing is for sure.... it's staying on itlaugh

CRA1G

4,220 posts

150 months

Saturday 27th June
quotequote all
Sir Bagalot said:
I spoke briefly to the new owner a couple of months back. Not even he knows the history of how it cam eto be assigned to the moggy.

One thing is for sure.... it's staying on itlaugh
I know there's been several attempts to try and get the "no transferable" tag removed iirc a local MP was involved at one point..... but yes it does appear it's on the Moggy for good. What are the intentions of the new owner? do you know how much he paid for it? It's definitely a mystery....

IAINSMITH

144 posts

219 months

Saturday 27th June
quotequote all
CRA1G said:
IAINSMITH said:
Can I ask why 1 AN is not transferable? I’ve got 81AN and no problems there, had it for 20 years
Your plate was DVLA Auction number which I presume you bought direct the Auction in January 98 for £5800 + VAT Etc.... 1 AN was DVLA age replacement plate which was issued to the Morris Minor after the Moggys original number was transferred,strange it was issued with such a distinctive plate but never the less now deemed "No Transferable" the reason they have to do that is to stop the same happening again and again releasing old numbers on to the market.read
Your internet searching skills are better than my memory! :-) time flies, yes 98 is Probably right because the first car I remember having it on was T reg (99?) Saab Viggen convertible - I’m getting old



IAINSMITH

144 posts

219 months

Saturday 27th June
quotequote all

Thanks for taking the time to post, I have to admit I didn’t know there was a “non transferable” rule for some plates. While the number plate would be great for anyone called IAN I Suspect the fact you have to keep it on a moggie divides it’s worth by 10!





rowd1284 said:
IAINSMITH said:
Can I ask why 1 AN is not transferable? I’ve got 81AN and no problems there, had it for 20 years
T-J-C said:
Someone took the original plate off the car and DVLA issued it a new non-transferable age related plate, which was 1 AN.
CRA1G said:
Your plate was DVLA Auction number which I presume you bought direct the Auction in January 98 for £5800 + VAT Etc.... 1 AN was DVLA age replacement plate which was issued to the Morris Minor after the Moggys original number was transferred,strange it was issued with such a distinctive plate but never the less now deemed "No Transferable" the reason they have to do that is to stop the same happening again and again releasing old numbers on to the market.read
Whilst CRA1G and T-J-C have helpfully responded to this oft-asked question, might I be so bold as to suggest that they are merely speculating on how 1 AN came to be non-transferable, rather than stating an undisputed fact!

This topic has been mulled for years by number plate nuts and, as it happens, I think the theory suggested by CRA1G and T-J-C is the least likely explanation.

On one of the previous occasions this question was asked, I put forward my own theory (and made clear that it was only my opinion!) as to the best explanation.

I've just looked back and I'm surprised that it was as long ago as September, 2016 - in a discussion with CRA1G!

For those who don't wish to follow the link to the page, I copy what I speculated then, below - suffice to say, the back-story on how 1 AN came to be non-transferable may never be proven with clear evidence, and the only thing I think is more likely than that happening is a change in the transfer rules which would allow 1 AN to be freed from the Morris Minor!

M3DGE said:
I've never understood 1 AN. The plate was never originally issued (AN was not reversed) so, if not bought from DVLA how did this plate end up on the Moggy? Anyone?
CRA1G said:
I have always been lead to belive the moggys original plate "was"transferred and 1 AN was issued as a similar age related replacement and therefore not transferable...
Rowd1284 said:
I've heard that too, but it seems highly implausible to me that such an obviously valuable plate would be routinely issued like that, as alleged.

Since time immemorial many authorities had an unofficial system in place which kept the 'best' combinations back - and it was not uncommon for the 'very best' to end up in the hands of the civil servants who themselves administered the registrations!

For instance, R 1 (December 1903) was reputedly issued to the head honcho at the Derbyshire licensing authority, and passed down through the family at least as far as the 1970s.

Today such an abuse would be considered clear-cut corruption in a public position.

What also often happened when two-letter combinations were reversed was that the low digits were all held back.

For example, my bible tells me that the AD series was reversed in January 1960, but started from 100 AD - all the double-digits, presumably, having been 'promised' to local car dealerships, business leaders and sundry bigwigs.

As for 1 AN, the car is from 1960 but the DVLA database shows it was first registered in October 1984 (this date refers to when it was first registered on the computerised system) - meaning that, for the back-story to be true, the number it replaced would itself have almost certainly been non-transferable.

It also raises a number of questions as to why the authorities would issue only one plate in the AN series - and the very best possible - as a non-transferable dateless replacement, when, only a handful of years later the DVLA began cashing in on all their unissued combinations at auction, which saw 2-104 AN inclusive all sold off during the 1990s.

Much more likely, in my opinion, is that 1 AN, was a special one-off, issued yonks ago by some flexible civil servant to one of the old boys as a private number.

Said plate's owner (who had it attached to the Morris Minor) failed to update/maintain its registration by the new computerised system's deadline, and, subsequently, it was routinely re-registered to the car under the new system (in 1984) as a non-transferable plate.

Sorry for my last two long posts, but I find it interesting even if nobody else does!

Sir Bagalot

5,334 posts

136 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
CRA1G said:
Sir Bagalot said:
I spoke briefly to the new owner a couple of months back. Not even he knows the history of how it cam eto be assigned to the moggy.

One thing is for sure.... it's staying on itlaugh
I know there's been several attempts to try and get the "no transferable" tag removed iirc a local MP was involved at one point..... but yes it does appear it's on the Moggy for good. What are the intentions of the new owner? do you know how much he paid for it? It's definitely a mystery....
As you know it was on ebay for ages for £40K, Then the price dropped to £20K. Then it disappeared.

Transpires he paid very close to the £20K for it and it's now tucked away in his garage awaiting the day the plate may become transferable.

He may be waiting a while.

You and I both know it's a worthless plate simply because he can't get it off the moggy and never will be able to.

rowd1284

56 posts

112 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
CRA1G said:
Interesting theory...? However I would question your point regarding the computerised deadline system. DVLA changed the registration system in Aug 1983 at which the new V5 replaced the old style log books. DVAL gave an ammesty iirc for six months to which you could apply to register any vehicle that didn't have the old style log book,so many old vehicles,motorbikes agricultural etc were put into the new system,to do this you sent DVLA the details of the vehicle and DVLA would contact the local police authority who then sent someone from the stolen vehicle squad to inspect and check the chassis number and if they were happy everything was correct would inform DVLA who would then issue a new V5. All these numbers were transferable. DVLA Did not routinely re-register numbers without the above prosses any numbers that were not inspected at the end of the amnesty were lost for good so " 1 AN " can't have been routinely re-registerd.
Hi Craig, a failure to re-register a vehicle before the 1980s computerisation deadline may have meant that a registration number was "lost for good," I'm not sure, but I know that hasn't necessarily been true since the mid-1990s, when the DVLA's V765 "Application to register a vehicle under its original registration number" process was introduced.

For a more detailed explanation on this process and how it came about, you might be interested in my forum post last year, at the top of this linked page.

As you say, in the 1980s the DVLA moved over to computerisation. I don't know when exactly, but I'm happy to go with August, 1983 as you say.

Vehicle owners were required to send off their old log books to re-register them under the computerised system, obviously a mammoth undertaking, so no doubt there was a long grace period given, and if your recollection is correct, and it was six months from August, 1983, this would have given until February, 1984.

If a registered keeper re-registered their vehicle on time they were issued a V5 and everything continued as normal. Those who missed the deadline not only suffered the temporary consequence of not being able to use their vehicle on the road legally until re-registration had taken place, but their inaction caused a 'permanent' consequence.

Whether this 'permanent' consequence was that the number would be completely relinquished, or that the registration number would remain permanently attached to that vehicle never in the future to be transferred off, or re-issued to any other vehicle, is somewhat of a moot point I guess.

Either way, since the V765 process was introduced by the DVLA in the 1990s, you can apply to re-register a 'barn find' car under its original number, however long it’s not been road legal, provided everything stacks up and the number is not in use or retained.

If your dates are correct, Craig, and the end of the six-month grace period ended in February, 1984, it wasn't for another eight months that the 1960 Morris Minor in question was registered (or re-registered) according to the DVLA's online records - so I think it's more than likely that, whatever number it was registered under at the time of the computerisation deadline lapsing, there was a failure to re-register it on time.

Going with my theory, at some point in the latter half of 1984, the owner of the 1960 Morris Minor (whichever plate it was on - it doesn't really matter) realised that this car was not legally road registered, so they liaised with the DVLC.

The DVLC obliged, and the vehicle was legally road registered (again) as of 1st October, 1984. As for which number the DVLC issued to the car, let's break my theory down to three sub-theories:

a) The 1960 Morris Minor was registered as 1 AN at the time the computerisation deadline lapsed, so the DVLC allowed the car to be re-registered under this same number, 1 AN, but on a non-transferable basis.

b) The 1960 Morris Minor was registered as 1 AN at the time the computerisation deadline lapsed, but sadly this nice plate was completely relinquished by this failure to act on time, so the DVLC re-register the car, but under the new number, for example 984 XYK.

c) The 1960 Morris Minor was first registered in 1960 with the number 1 AN. But it didn't stay on this slug of a car for long, because wealthy businessman Ian was a total petrolhead, and soon transferred it to his brand new Jaguar E-Type. Ian then sold the Morris Minor, with its insignificant replacement number, to an old lady called Mildred. Ian had a heavy right foot and an even heavier drinking habit. Sozzled Ian completely smashed up his Jag in a terminal late-night smash in 1962. Clerically inept, Ian's widow allowed the registration number to be lost forever. The 1960 Morris Minor, meanwhile, was Mildred's faithful daily runner until she gave up driving in 1982. It lay untouched in elderly Mildred's heated garage until she died in 1984. Her grandson inherited the 1960 Morris Minor and realised he had to re-register it because granny had failed to keep on top of the paperwork. It was re-registered as of 1st October, 1984, under whatever number the DVLC decide - let's say 692 GXF.

On the basis that b) or c) is correct, at some point in the car's life - maybe even as recently as 2006/7 or so, before it was famously auctioned on eBay - the latest owner of this Morris Minor (let's call him Alan) delves into the car's history.

Alan is amazed to discover that the original, or possibly even the last valid, registration number of his humble classic was 1 AN, which also happens to no longer exist on a vehicle or retention.

Using the DVLA's V765 process, "Application to register a vehicle under its original registration number," Alan applies to reunite his vehicle with its original registration number, 1 AN.

Success! The DVLA re-issued 1 AN, on a non-transferable basis!

The simplest theory, that 1 AN was simply issued as a replacement number following a registration number transfer, is not even slightly credible to me.

There are so many obvious flaws to that theory, one of which is why no plate in the reverse AN series was similarly issued as a replacement number following other transfers.

We would expect to see so many other x AN or xx AN plates, 2 AN, 3 AN, 20 AN, 99 AN, etc. etc. etc. similarly saddled on classic cars today on a non-transferable basis, however they weren't ever issued to vehicles this way - they were all sold off by the DVLA in the 1990s.

So, my theory surrounding re-registration (via my sub-theories) would credibly explain how the plate came to be non-transferable. It wouldn't, however, attempt to explain how 1 AN was the only number from the AN reverse series to be issued back in the day.

As I say, that conundrum is far easier to understand and explain - because in the pre-centralised old network of local licensing authorities, 'nice' numbers were often issued as favours, and, I strongly suspect, solicited with back-handers.

Someone was very fortunate in getting the West Ham/London licensing authority to issue 1 AN out of sequence in the first place, but that same person, or their successor, was extraordinarily unlucky in subsequently losing the transferability of this most valuable of numbers!

I doubt it will ever be registered to another vehicle.

Macron

4,957 posts

121 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
Yes spacing but on a car like this would you expect anything else?


CRA1G

4,220 posts

150 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
Macron said:
Yes spacing but on a car like this would you expect anything else?

£2300 + the bits in Jan 02... but some will still say wrong thread....nono

Yankee Romeo

68 posts

2 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all

Issued by Gloucester County Council in 1961. Reverse DD ran from April 1961 - July 1962 and started from 100.

Sir Bagalot

5,334 posts

136 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
This is rapidly becoming an often transferred plate after spending many years in hiding.

Not seen for many years it sprung up on an old white Micra but then was moved onto more expensive cars.... Ferrari, Porsche, Rolls... you get the picture. Apparently it was bought from someone who ran with it on his Merc SL.... despite selling the plate he still runs the SL showing the plate

From memory this is the only Dawn running a 1x1 (pic lifted from elsewhere)


CRA1G

4,220 posts

150 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
Sir Bagalot said:
Apparently it was bought from someone who ran with it on his Merc SL.... despite selling the plate he still runs the SL showing the plate
That's what happened when I bought my plate 30 years ago from a guy in Scotland I found out 12 months after me purchasing the plate he was still driving round with it on his car......

Sir Bagalot

5,334 posts

136 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
CRA1G said:
Sir Bagalot said:
Apparently it was bought from someone who ran with it on his Merc SL.... despite selling the plate he still runs the SL showing the plate
That's what happened when I bought my plate 30 years ago from a guy in Scotland I found out 12 months after me purchasing the plate he was still driving round with it on his car......
Apparently it's only a £100 fine. There are eight cars out there wearing fake 1x1's.

CRA1G

4,220 posts

150 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
Sir Bagalot said:
CRA1G said:
Sir Bagalot said:
Apparently it was bought from someone who ran with it on his Merc SL.... despite selling the plate he still runs the SL showing the plate
That's what happened when I bought my plate 30 years ago from a guy in Scotland I found out 12 months after me purchasing the plate he was still driving round with it on his car......
Apparently it's only a £100 fine. There are eight cars out there wearing fake 1x1's.
Then there's the look alikes ie- "GRA 1G" and CRA 1C both with conveniently placed screw caps placed in obvious places.... so had to deal with a few parking/speeding tickets over the years but Ha Ho it's all a bit of fun and not to mention investment my plate still makes me smile....smile

nonsequitur

13,143 posts

71 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
Sir Bagalot said:
This is rapidly becoming an often transferred plate after spending many years in hiding.

Not seen for many years it sprung up on an old white Micra but then was moved onto more expensive cars.... Ferrari, Porsche, Rolls... you get the picture. Apparently it was bought from someone who ran with it on his Merc SL.... despite selling the plate he still runs the SL showing the plate

From memory this is the only Dawn running a 1x1 (pic lifted from elsewhere)

Posh buses round your way.

Hatson

1,200 posts

77 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
CRA1G said:
Then there's the look alikes ie- "GRA 1G" and CRA 1C both with conveniently placed screw caps placed in obvious places.... so had to deal with a few parking/speeding tickets over the years but Ha Ho it's all a bit of fun and not to mention investment my plate still makes me smile....smile
If you want to really test your sense of humour put your plate on retention and wait to receive a letter from Swansea saying someone else claims your plate and if you don’t reply quick enough they become the new owner. I was living abroad and happened to visit just before the prospective new “displayer“ of my plate took over their rights. hehe

CRA1G

4,220 posts

150 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
Hatson said:
If you want to really test your sense of humour put your plate on retention and wait to receive a letter from Swansea saying someone else claims your plate and if you don’t reply quick enough they become the new owner. I was living abroad and happened to visit just before the prospective new “displayer“ of my plate took over their rights. hehe
Iirc " JON 1" was involved in a similar scam were as someone applied for a V5 knowing the UK owner spent most of his time abroad and a new V5 "WAS" issued in their name but when it all came to light all be it hassle/worry DVLA did reverse the application and I believe the alleged new owner was prosecuted and the plate re-registerd to the right full owner....clap

Hatson

1,200 posts

77 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
CRA1G said:
Hatson said:
If you want to really test your sense of humour put your plate on retention and wait to receive a letter from Swansea saying someone else claims your plate and if you don’t reply quick enough they become the new owner. I was living abroad and happened to visit just before the prospective new “displayer“ of my plate took over their rights. hehe
Iirc " JON 1" was involved in a similar scam were as someone applied for a V5 knowing the UK owner spent most of his time abroad and a new V5 "WAS" issued in their name but when it all came to light all be it hassle/worry DVLA did reverse the application and I believe the alleged new owner was prosecuted and the plate re-registerd to the right full owner....clap
I expect they weren’t quick enough selling it on in JON’s case. laugh

Sir Bagalot

5,334 posts

136 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
CRA1G said:
Hatson said:
If you want to really test your sense of humour put your plate on retention and wait to receive a letter from Swansea saying someone else claims your plate and if you don’t reply quick enough they become the new owner. I was living abroad and happened to visit just before the prospective new “displayer“ of my plate took over their rights. hehe
Iirc " JON 1" was involved in a similar scam were as someone applied for a V5 knowing the UK owner spent most of his time abroad and a new V5 "WAS" issued in their name but when it all came to light all be it hassle/worry DVLA did reverse the application and I believe the alleged new owner was prosecuted and the plate re-registerd to the right full owner....clap
Similar happed a 1x1, IIRC 1 S, was actually placed on another car by fraud. Rightful owner did get his plate back.

CRA1G

4,220 posts

150 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
Sir Bagalot said:
Similar happed a 1x1, IIRC 1 S, was actually placed on another car by fraud. Rightful owner did get his plate back.
That "1S" nice to know....hehe

jcuthell

148 posts

62 months

Sunday 28th June
quotequote all
My wife saw D50 on a Land Rover Defender on Friday on the A428 near Bedford. Must be valuable and early issue perhaps around 1905?