Why did people spec auto on performance cars?

Why did people spec auto on performance cars?

Author
Discussion

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
MB140 said:
Only my opinion but how often do you drive your performance car in a performance manner. As mine is my only car probably about 5% of the time. 5% is probably being generous.

With U.K. traffic being pretty much constant congestion. Then add in an over zealous state enforcement of speed limits and any kind of fun as danger, then in reality that 5% is still not really deriving any benefit of a manual. Then what is the smart option.

95% of the time an auto is the best option for the driving I’m doing. If I had the funds and I lived near some inspirational driving roads I would have a manual 3.5 Exige in the garage and be out mega early in the morning for a blast. Unfortunately I don’t.
Not sure, with that usage pattern. why you bother owning a performance car at all, though?

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
otolith said:
MB140 said:
Only my opinion but how often do you drive your performance car in a performance manner. As mine is my only car probably about 5% of the time. 5% is probably being generous.

With U.K. traffic being pretty much constant congestion. Then add in an over zealous state enforcement of speed limits and any kind of fun as danger, then in reality that 5% is still not really deriving any benefit of a manual. Then what is the smart option.

95% of the time an auto is the best option for the driving I’m doing. If I had the funds and I lived near some inspirational driving roads I would have a manual 3.5 Exige in the garage and be out mega early in the morning for a blast. Unfortunately I don’t.
Not sure, with that usage pattern. why you bother owning a performance car at all, though?
yes If you're driving in constant congestion, yes. However, that depends on where you live! There's a pretty healthy proportion of the UK that's largely half empty A, B and C roads. I spend an hour a day running on the roads around my house and I see about 5 or 6 cars each time. If you hate congestion then you can just live somewhere like this; it's one reason I'm here.

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
I live in the SE and have no issues thoroughly enjoying driving. If you genuinely are stuck in traffic from your house to your destination on every journey then just forget having a vaguely interesting car.


RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
SidewaysSi said:
I live in the SE and have no issues thoroughly enjoying driving. If you genuinely are stuck in traffic from your house to your destination on every journey then just forget having a vaguely interesting car.
yes If I lived in a city full of congestion, then I'd use a bike or public transport to get around. I'd then either do arrive and drive on trackdays or racing, or I'd own a car at home that I'd take out of the city when I wanted to enjoy a drive. It's a bit strange for the poster above to claim that all of the UK is congested; I'd guess that the majority isn't - look at Scotland and Wales for example!

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
SidewaysSi said:
I live in the SE and have no issues thoroughly enjoying driving. If you genuinely are stuck in traffic from your house to your destination on every journey then just forget having a vaguely interesting car.
Maybe I'm mis-interpreting the situation but I think he's just getting at that most journeys you get stuck behind some sort of slower car.

IE this morning I dropped my car off for some warranty work. The drive there is usually a nice open flowing A road. But most times, you get stuck behind some old lady doing 50, or some lorries. While there are some over taking spots often there is a lack of visibility for a safe overtake.

The only time I get to properly enjoy driving are on some European mountain roads once a year or the trackdays. On the road I generally just want to get to my destination as comfortably as possible.

maz8062

2,175 posts

214 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
This is an interesting discussion. For my part, I don't understand the nostalgia that surrounds manual boxes - why? I blame the journalists - them again - they test-drive a Porsche GT3 PDK (cost £158k) and pine for a manual. The car would be so good with a manual - double-declutching, heel and toe, short-shifting - blah, blah, blah. No, it won't.

Back in the day cars came standard with a manual box and 3 pedals - you would have to pay extra for an auto. Since then manufactures have spent $billions on R&D on auto boxes, with the net result that we now have DCT boxes with launch control, 9 gears, manual mode, etc. How much r&d has been spent on manual gearboxes? Ok, Porsche has spent a bit on 7-speed gearboxes, but that's about it. Funny thing is though, you can get a manual box for the same price as an automatic because that's what you want, apparently.

This is a marketing team's dream; get people to opt for manuals, charge the same as an auto and make shed loads of profit.

Oh, but manuals are more engaging people claim. Not really, they're just more effort and they're slower.

This debate is like people demanding a return of the old Motorolla flip phones instead of the current crop of smartphones - because there was no social media, internet etc. Who needs progress when we can wallow in nostalgia biggrin

Edited by maz8062 on Monday 29th June 16:50

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
Has it occurred to you that some of the people you're talking to have owned and driven both types of car and have a preference?

av185

18,434 posts

126 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
This is an interesting discussion. For my part, I don't understand the nostalgia that surrounds manual boxes - why? I blame the journalists - them again - they test-drive a Porsche GT3 PDK (cost £158k) and pine for a manual. The car would be so good with a manual - double-declutching, heel and toe, short-shifting - blah, blah, blah. No, it won't.

Back in the day cars came standard with a manual box and 3 pedals - you would have to pay extra for an auto. Since then manufactures have spent $billions on R&D on auto boxes, with the net result that we now have DCT boxes with launch control, 9 gears, manual mode, etc. How much r&d has been spent on manual gearboxes? Ok, Porsche has spent a bit on 7-speed gearboxes, but that's about it. Funny thing is though, you can get a manual box for the same price as an automatic because that's what you want, apparently.

This is a marketing team's dream; get people to opt for manuals, charge the same as an auto and make shed loads of profit.

Oh, but manuals are more engaging people claim. Not really, they're just more effort and they're slower.

This debate is like people demanding a return of the old Motorolla flip phones instead of the current crop of smartphones - because there was no social media, internet etc. Who needs progress when we can wallow in nostalgia biggrin

Edited by maz8062 on Monday 29th June 16:50
You clearly haven't owned or driven a 991.2 GT3. For road use the manual is no slower.

The difference in cost to Porsche between a manual and PDK S in negligible. The manual is 6 not 7 speed and around 33% of gen 2 GT3s are manual including 43 UK GT3 Tourings.

nickfrog

20,874 posts

216 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
The only time I get to properly enjoy driving are on some European mountain roads once a year or the trackdays. On the road I generally just want to get to my destination as comfortably as possible.
Same for me exactly, and I live in SE England too, Sussex. For me a road journey is essentially about traffic, speed traps and pot holes.

ddom

6,657 posts

47 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
Oh, but manuals are more engaging people claim. Not really, they're just more effort and they're slower.

This debate is like people demanding a return of the old Motorolla flip phones instead of the current crop of smartphones - because there was no social media, internet etc. Who needs progress when we can wallow in nostalgia biggrin

Edited by maz8062 on Monday 29th June 16:50
Auto's (for me) have two uses. One, to enable a daily car to commute without fuss, certain cars, most diesels suit a manual, it works well. Second, to go as fast as possible in competition. If you put a really good auto into a fast car they all (in my experience) make you drive much harder, and tbh there is much less involvement. A sequential in a road car, that's actually asking for trouble, as they are only happy when you are flat out.

Having said that, a life without social media, battery life measured in days not hours and phones that you could actually hear yourself talking on. Progress biggrin

shaunroche

208 posts

145 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
av185 said:
maz8062 said:
This is an interesting discussion. For my part, I don't understand the nostalgia that surrounds manual boxes - why? I blame the journalists - them again - they test-drive a Porsche GT3 PDK (cost £158k) and pine for a manual. The car would be so good with a manual - double-declutching, heel and toe, short-shifting - blah, blah, blah. No, it won't.

Back in the day cars came standard with a manual box and 3 pedals - you would have to pay extra for an auto. Since then manufactures have spent $billions on R&D on auto boxes, with the net result that we now have DCT boxes with launch control, 9 gears, manual mode, etc. How much r&d has been spent on manual gearboxes? Ok, Porsche has spent a bit on 7-speed gearboxes, but that's about it. Funny thing is though, you can get a manual box for the same price as an automatic because that's what you want, apparently.

This is a marketing team's dream; get people to opt for manuals, charge the same as an auto and make shed loads of profit.

Oh, but manuals are more engaging people claim. Not really, they're just more effort and they're slower.

This debate is like people demanding a return of the old Motorolla flip phones instead of the current crop of smartphones - because there was no social media, internet etc. Who needs progress when we can wallow in nostalgia biggrin

Edited by maz8062 on Monday 29th June 16:50
You clearly haven't owned or driven a 991.2 GT3. For road use the manual is no slower.

The difference in cost to Porsche between a manual and PDK S in negligible. The manual is 6 not 7 speed and around 33% of gen 2 GT3s are manual including 43 UK GT3 Tourings.
Top quote, couldn't agree more, absolutely nailed it!

Next quote - Av, think you're being a bit picky there, he's clearly talking figuratively not, specifically.


Anyhoo, I find it absolutely extraordinary that in the 21st century we still consider stirring a box of gears with a stick to change gear is somehow good?

Even on my old E46 M3 SMG-II in non sport mode, the gear change was something crazy like 0.8 of a second. The pure joy of driving over the Peak District giving it death without having to take my hands off the wheel was a revelation. Better still in my 16 plate AMG A45, a few years later.

I Sprint and Hillclimb a 1975 Dolomite Sprint and let me thank Christ that I don't have to commute anywhere on today's congested roads in that - given that the roads are jam packed and there's a hold up around every corner, the thought of depressing that clutch hundreds of times is just that, depressing!.....even my Brabus Vito is an Auto!
Manual boxes - a bit too 20th century for me I'm afraid smile

Edited by shaunroche on Monday 29th June 18:12

DoubleD

22,154 posts

107 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
maz8062 said:
Oh, but manuals are more engaging people claim. Not really, they're just more effort and they're slower.

Edited by maz8062 on Monday 29th June 16:50
The good thing is we still have choice, which allows people with different opinions like many of us do, to buy and drive what they like.



Hungrymc

6,643 posts

136 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
otolith said:
Has it occurred to you that some of the people you're talking to have owned and driven both types of car and have a preference?
And some may prefer different gearboxes for different applications. it’s a broad spectrum from purely for fun through to purely for easy commuting. I think many will own several vehicles across this range.

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
Where are these jam packed roads everyone seems to get stuck on? I can go to the supermarket and have a blast. A couple of roundabouts in a 40 mph zone - link them up nicely and I can absolutely push my car to the limit.

I don't need to go to Europe or drive a Ferrari to enjoy driving.

MB140

4,028 posts

102 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
SidewaysSi said:
I live in the SE and have no issues thoroughly enjoying driving. If you genuinely are stuck in traffic from your house to your destination on every journey then just forget having a vaguely interesting car.
Maybe I'm mis-interpreting the situation but I think he's just getting at that most journeys you get stuck behind some sort of slower car.

IE this morning I dropped my car off for some warranty work. The drive there is usually a nice open flowing A road. But most times, you get stuck behind some old lady doing 50, or some lorries. While there are some over taking spots often there is a lack of visibility for a safe overtake.

The only time I get to properly enjoy driving are on some European mountain roads once a year or the trackdays. On the road I generally just want to get to my destination as comfortably as possible.
Exactly this xj, that’s what I mean. Lovely road between Newark and Mansfield In Notts. They have double white lined the whole road. It’s notorious for the police hiding on the road. Even though it’s a lovely open road how often do I get to use the full performance of the car. Not much really. I still have one for those few moments. (Drive to work for a flight at 2am etc. But not enough % of my driving time means I would spec a manual. If I lived out in the middle of nowhere. Hell yeah. I would have an exige in my garage.

maz8062

2,175 posts

214 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
maz8062 said:
Oh, but manuals are more engaging people claim. Not really, they're just more effort and they're slower.

Edited by maz8062 on Monday 29th June 16:50
The good thing is we still have choice, which allows people with different opinions like many of us do, to buy and drive what they like.
I agree DD, you're spot on.

My point is that manual boxes haven't come on much since I used to thrash an Austin Maestro (GTI wink) around country lanes back in the day. In those days autos were just for easy driving, although kick down could be quite addictive.

In terms of innovation for manual gearboxes I can only think of the Porsche 7 speed boxes or the 370z rev-matching trickery. Other than that manual boxes are the same as they've always been.

The other day I was watching an onboard of Senna driving a manual F1 car - it looked amazing - I think F1 are missing a trick with their super-fast auto boxes biggrin

ddom

6,657 posts

47 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
Manual boxes haven’t come on much. Really? You think the high point was BL?

smile

av185

18,434 posts

126 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
Ah yes the innovative quartic steering wheel of the delightful BL Maestro.

With a gearbox to match.

cerb4.5lee

30,197 posts

179 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
MB140 said:
Lovely road between Newark and Mansfield In Notts. They have double white lined the whole road. It’s notorious for the police hiding on the road. Even though it’s a lovely open road how often do I get to use the full performance of the car.
I've used that road for 30 years and they have completely ruined it now I agree. All the main roads around me are terrible for getting your foot down(you are always stuck behind a lorry/van/car with an almost impossible overtaking opportunity).

I do however also have some brilliant and very quiet country roads around me as well though. They are great roads to use to drive just for pleasure, all very quiet NSL roads with plenty of overtaking opportunities and very little traffic. It is just the main roads that suck.

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Monday 29th June 2020
quotequote all
MB140 said:
xjay1337 said:
SidewaysSi said:
I live in the SE and have no issues thoroughly enjoying driving. If you genuinely are stuck in traffic from your house to your destination on every journey then just forget having a vaguely interesting car.
Maybe I'm mis-interpreting the situation but I think he's just getting at that most journeys you get stuck behind some sort of slower car.

IE this morning I dropped my car off for some warranty work. The drive there is usually a nice open flowing A road. But most times, you get stuck behind some old lady doing 50, or some lorries. While there are some over taking spots often there is a lack of visibility for a safe overtake.

The only time I get to properly enjoy driving are on some European mountain roads once a year or the trackdays. On the road I generally just want to get to my destination as comfortably as possible.
Exactly this xj, that’s what I mean. Lovely road between Newark and Mansfield In Notts. They have double white lined the whole road. It’s notorious for the police hiding on the road. Even though it’s a lovely open road how often do I get to use the full performance of the car. Not much really. I still have one for those few moments. (Drive to work for a flight at 2am etc. But not enough % of my driving time means I would spec a manual. If I lived out in the middle of nowhere. Hell yeah. I would have an exige in my garage.
If only eh? We can all make excuses but if you want to do something, there is always a way. I live near the underground on the outskirts of London and manage to enjoy cars, so surely you can't too.

If you want an Exige, buy one and bloody well find places to enjoy it because they exist everywhere. But if you honestly don't care about it or don't want to spend the money etc., there's no need to find excuses.. smile