Why did people spec auto on performance cars?
Discussion
Jaroon said:
I'd never buy a manual performance car, I can see the appeal, it's to say "I would only drive a manual" right? 
Last few cars C55 AMG, Jaguar XFR, BMW 135i and now the Alfa Quadrifoglio. I likes torques, torques need less flapping about to keep it in the zone and I don't want to drive like that. Would use the paddles on a track, does that count? I'm a one car man, short commute, some school runs etc. and fun. Zero interest in another pedal.
I'd never buy a big engine large saloon, I can see the appeal, it's to say "I would only drive a large floaty barge" right? Last few cars C55 AMG, Jaguar XFR, BMW 135i and now the Alfa Quadrifoglio. I likes torques, torques need less flapping about to keep it in the zone and I don't want to drive like that. Would use the paddles on a track, does that count? I'm a one car man, short commute, some school runs etc. and fun. Zero interest in another pedal.
Hol said:
Jaroon said:
I'd never buy a manual performance car, I can see the appeal, it's to say "I would only drive a manual" right?
Last few cars C55 AMG, Jaguar XFR, BMW 135i and now the Alfa Quadrifoglio. I likes torques, torques need less flapping about to keep it in the zone and I don't want to drive like that. Would use the paddles on a track, does that count? I'm a one car man, short commute, some school runs etc. and fun. Zero interest in another pedal.
I'd never buy a big engine large saloon, I can see the appeal, it's to say "I would only drive a large floaty barge" right? Last few cars C55 AMG, Jaguar XFR, BMW 135i and now the Alfa Quadrifoglio. I likes torques, torques need less flapping about to keep it in the zone and I don't want to drive like that. Would use the paddles on a track, does that count? I'm a one car man, short commute, some school runs etc. and fun. Zero interest in another pedal.
SidewaysSi said:
Hol said:
Jaroon said:
I'd never buy a manual performance car, I can see the appeal, it's to say "I would only drive a manual" right?
Last few cars C55 AMG, Jaguar XFR, BMW 135i and now the Alfa Quadrifoglio. I likes torques, torques need less flapping about to keep it in the zone and I don't want to drive like that. Would use the paddles on a track, does that count? I'm a one car man, short commute, some school runs etc. and fun. Zero interest in another pedal.
I'd never buy a big engine large saloon, I can see the appeal, it's to say "I would only drive a large floaty barge" right? Last few cars C55 AMG, Jaguar XFR, BMW 135i and now the Alfa Quadrifoglio. I likes torques, torques need less flapping about to keep it in the zone and I don't want to drive like that. Would use the paddles on a track, does that count? I'm a one car man, short commute, some school runs etc. and fun. Zero interest in another pedal.
Jaroon said:
SidewaysSi said:
Hol said:
Jaroon said:
I'd never buy a manual performance car, I can see the appeal, it's to say "I would only drive a manual" right?
Last few cars C55 AMG, Jaguar XFR, BMW 135i and now the Alfa Quadrifoglio. I likes torques, torques need less flapping about to keep it in the zone and I don't want to drive like that. Would use the paddles on a track, does that count? I'm a one car man, short commute, some school runs etc. and fun. Zero interest in another pedal.
I'd never buy a big engine large saloon, I can see the appeal, it's to say "I would only drive a large floaty barge" right? Last few cars C55 AMG, Jaguar XFR, BMW 135i and now the Alfa Quadrifoglio. I likes torques, torques need less flapping about to keep it in the zone and I don't want to drive like that. Would use the paddles on a track, does that count? I'm a one car man, short commute, some school runs etc. and fun. Zero interest in another pedal.
However I do really like the Quadrifoglio, and they've made a stunning noise whenever I've heard them out on the road. 
Raygun said:
For many years now (at least 40 years) I've always thought performance cars should have manual gearboxes, we've had tiptronic, auto etc but s/h it's always manual that commands a premium. I just don't understand why anyone buying a performance car with an option of a manual gearbox would not tick that box on a spec sheet?
Just a couple of quick thoughts;- Because they prefer autos
- Because they need an auto
- Because of the type of driving they do (urban)
- Because they don't like the manual option offered
Johner said:
Raygun said:
For many years now (at least 40 years) I've always thought performance cars should have manual gearboxes, we've had tiptronic, auto etc but s/h it's always manual that commands a premium. I just don't understand why anyone buying a performance car with an option of a manual gearbox would not tick that box on a spec sheet?
Just a couple of quick thoughts;- Because they prefer autos
- Because they need an auto
- Because of the type of driving they do (urban)
- Because they don't like the manual option offered
maz8062 said:
Johner said:
Raygun said:
For many years now (at least 40 years) I've always thought performance cars should have manual gearboxes, we've had tiptronic, auto etc but s/h it's always manual that commands a premium. I just don't understand why anyone buying a performance car with an option of a manual gearbox would not tick that box on a spec sheet?
Just a couple of quick thoughts;- Because they prefer autos
- Because they need an auto
- Because of the type of driving they do (urban)
- Because they don't like the manual option offered
maz8062 said:
Johner said:
Raygun said:
For many years now (at least 40 years) I've always thought performance cars should have manual gearboxes, we've had tiptronic, auto etc but s/h it's always manual that commands a premium. I just don't understand why anyone buying a performance car with an option of a manual gearbox would not tick that box on a spec sheet?
Just a couple of quick thoughts;- Because they prefer autos
- Because they need an auto
- Because of the type of driving they do (urban)
- Because they don't like the manual option offered
Been a Petrol Head for 40 years always loved the joy of fast and precise gearboxes. — Oops now have the latest Dual Clutch in my new Car- Why would I ever want to go back to the leg aching clutch ( in queues) and gear box again- Not for me I am a happy convert, it is modern faster easier to use and can change gear if I really want to. Come on guys unless you are a classic enthusiast get Into the joys of modern motoring. Electric Cars like them or not are on their way no clutch or gearbox in any of those.
I have a 350 slk with an auto box and an audi TT with a manual gearbox. Neither of them are really sportscars but I suppose both qualify as performance cars.
I like the TT but I prefer the slk. In the overall scheme of things, the auto is cheaper to maintain, as a clutch change on the TT always warrants a new DMF which shoves the price up significantly whereas the autobox is reasonably cheap to have the valve plate cleaned plus the odd solenoid replaced on the mercedes, different kettle of fish on a dsg audi though. An oil change on my merc gearbox is about £55 including filter, oil and gaskets if one shops around and comes up every 37000 miles or five years, peanuts really.
I don't think the autobox detracts from the driving experience at all, if anything I think it actually enhances it, my TT is getting moved on but I'll hang onto the m-b for a few years yet.
I think it's horses for courses, if you don't like auto transmission spec a manual, if you're buying used tough tittie.
I like the TT but I prefer the slk. In the overall scheme of things, the auto is cheaper to maintain, as a clutch change on the TT always warrants a new DMF which shoves the price up significantly whereas the autobox is reasonably cheap to have the valve plate cleaned plus the odd solenoid replaced on the mercedes, different kettle of fish on a dsg audi though. An oil change on my merc gearbox is about £55 including filter, oil and gaskets if one shops around and comes up every 37000 miles or five years, peanuts really.
I don't think the autobox detracts from the driving experience at all, if anything I think it actually enhances it, my TT is getting moved on but I'll hang onto the m-b for a few years yet.
I think it's horses for courses, if you don't like auto transmission spec a manual, if you're buying used tough tittie.
av185 said:
Driving a car for pleasure is not about sitting in queues which is drudgery in any car irrespective of the gearbox... when will folks get this?
I don't think they will. Oooh my poor little leg hurts to pump a clutch. Oooh it is so much effort to move my left arm.
Driving is so much like hard work. The roads are full of traffic and speed cameras. I have only one eye etc.
But I am a petrol head and I love cars. Yes I do. Really. Please believe me...
drone said:
I think it's horses for courses, if you don't like auto transmission spec a manual, if you're buying used tough tittie.
One of my big bugbears is that Mercedes don't even offer a manual in their performance cars though. I've been considering a SLK350 or a SLC 43 AMG over the last few months, and if I did go for one I'd have to compromise with the auto gearbox. I do still fancy one though, because I really like 2 seaters and I also prefer a folding metal roof to a fabric one.
SidewaysSi said:
av185 said:
Driving a car for pleasure is not about sitting in queues which is drudgery in any car irrespective of the gearbox... when will folks get this?
I don't think they will. Oooh my poor little leg hurts to pump a clutch. Oooh it is so much effort to move my left arm.
Driving is so much like hard work. The roads are full of traffic and speed cameras. I have only one eye etc.
But I am a petrol head and I love cars. Yes I do. Really. Please believe me...
I'd deem myself more of a petrolhead than most - look at what type of cars i've had and what mods i've done to them, many at home / with friends. myself and many friends like me literally only ever talk about cars, all we spend money on is our cars, all our trips are planned around cars...
sure i haven't ever owned a porsche or a mclaren but that doesn't matter. av has a nice history of cars for example. i don't know him in person. he might really be a serious petrol head, or he might just like cars and have a lot of money. i don't care, his choice is his choice and more power to him.
just for me and my personal preference with my current car and driving usage auto is a much better all around option.
and the fact is even on a "pLeAsUrE dRiVE" you still get traffic - you still get average camera zones - static and mobile speed cameras - you often run into speed bumps or busy town centres. unless you literally live in the Scottish or welsh highlands or a few very rural parts of england.
as i said before i rarely take any pleasure from road driving and nearly all of my enjoyment comes from the 6 to 8 track days I do per year. doesn't mean i don't enjoy a journey but - FOR ME - my main aim is to arrive safely and comfortably.
and yes i can tell you in my last manual car (my scirocco) my serious last memory of it was driving back from Cadwell park (4hr drive) and getting stuck in some traffic at around 8:30pm. stop start stop start. 6 paddle clutch , clutch delay removal , braided clutch line , single mass flywheel , solid engine mounts , harnesses and recaros , bilstein b16 , fully polybushed , it was very stiff - it was not pleasurable whatsoever at that moment. after being up for 16 hours with 2 hours of driving left.. there's only so much coasting along in 1st gear you can do
it completely overshadowed all of the fun of the day - infact i was even considering converting it to DSG but i split the car for parts before that happened.
again that's my personal opinion. and let's remember this is all personal - but no need to imply that people who raise concerns about the "day to day" living with a car (and again MOST PEOPLE only have 1 car!!!!) ....
eta:
as a direct comparison to my scirocco, 2 weeks after i picked up my m135i i went to snetterton for an evening session. i drove there (about 3 hours). it lapped all evening with NO problems at all. i drove it home. i got back quite late and was completely comfortable and relaxed and i had much more fun on track than i ever did in the scirocco (rwd beats all).
at no point for me was a manual gearbox a really key part of the driving experience, and i was always using rev matching, left foot braking on track etc etc. it doesn't make you more manly or a bigger petrol head to have a manual gearbox . you can agree to disagree on if you prefer auto or manual but to put down anyone else as a "lesser petrolhead" because of a choice of gearbox is f
king pathetic tbh. Edited by xjay1337 on Thursday 2nd July 20:51
Om said:
SidewaysSi said:
But I am a petrol head and I love cars. Yes I do. Really. Please believe me...
So that must mean you love auto and manual cars alike? Or are you just a closet auto-ist?Jaroon said:
Om said:
SidewaysSi said:
But I am a petrol head and I love cars. Yes I do. Really. Please believe me...
So that must mean you love auto and manual cars alike? Or are you just a closet auto-ist?I just take the easy option and sit on my arse and watch it on TV.
xjay1337 said:
SidewaysSi said:
av185 said:
Driving a car for pleasure is not about sitting in queues which is drudgery in any car irrespective of the gearbox... when will folks get this?
I don't think they will. Oooh my poor little leg hurts to pump a clutch. Oooh it is so much effort to move my left arm.
Driving is so much like hard work. The roads are full of traffic and speed cameras. I have only one eye etc.
But I am a petrol head and I love cars. Yes I do. Really. Please believe me...
I'd deem myself more of a petrolhead than most - look at what type of cars i've had and what mods i've done to them, many at home / with friends. myself and many friends like me literally only ever talk about cars, all we spend money on is our cars, all our trips are planned around cars...
sure i haven't ever owned a porsche or a mclaren but that doesn't matter. av has a nice history of cars for example. i don't know him in person. he might really be a serious petrol head, or he might just like cars and have a lot of money. i don't care, his choice is his choice and more power to him.
just for me and my personal preference with my current car and driving usage auto is a much better all around option.
and the fact is even on a "pLeAsUrE dRiVE" you still get traffic - you still get average camera zones - static and mobile speed cameras - you often run into speed bumps or busy town centres. unless you literally live in the Scottish or welsh highlands or a few very rural parts of england.
as i said before i rarely take any pleasure from road driving and nearly all of my enjoyment comes from the 6 to 8 track days I do per year. doesn't mean i don't enjoy a journey but - FOR ME - my main aim is to arrive safely and comfortably.
and yes i can tell you in my last manual car (my scirocco) my serious last memory of it was driving back from Cadwell park (4hr drive) and getting stuck in some traffic at around 8:30pm. stop start stop start. 6 paddle clutch , clutch delay removal , braided clutch line , single mass flywheel , solid engine mounts , harnesses and recaros , bilstein b16 , fully polybushed , it was very stiff - it was not pleasurable whatsoever at that moment. after being up for 16 hours with 2 hours of driving left.. there's only so much coasting along in 1st gear you can do
it completely overshadowed all of the fun of the day - infact i was even considering converting it to DSG but i split the car for parts before that happened.
again that's my personal opinion. and let's remember this is all personal - but no need to imply that people who raise concerns about the "day to day" living with a car (and again MOST PEOPLE only have 1 car!!!!) ....
eta:
as a direct comparison to my scirocco, 2 weeks after i picked up my m135i i went to snetterton for an evening session. i drove there (about 3 hours). it lapped all evening with NO problems at all. i drove it home. i got back quite late and was completely comfortable and relaxed and i had much more fun on track than i ever did in the scirocco (rwd beats all).
at no point for me was a manual gearbox a really key part of the driving experience, and i was always using rev matching, left foot braking on track etc etc. it doesn't make you more manly or a bigger petrol head to have a manual gearbox . you can agree to disagree on if you prefer auto or manual but to put down anyone else as a "lesser petrolhead" because of a choice of gearbox is f
king pathetic tbh. Edited by xjay1337 on Thursday 2nd July 20:51
I agree some cars are MORE suited to an 'auto' box than others but I tend to think this is because of other factors such as less linear power delivery and perhaps overall detachment of the car itself, Mclaren being a prime example. 570S and 720S both great packages undoubtedly but to me (I have owned a 570 S not a 720 S but have done extensive road trips in one) the typically elastic turbo power delivery makes for a frustrating and somewhat detached road car. Equally the GT2 RS is frustrating in that it is too fast and detached for the road and imo the only suitable environment where it can possibly be in its element would be the Nurburgring which partly explains why it effectively holds the fastest production car lap record there although some argue the Performante pipped it.
Your comments on the clutch weighting can be related to clutch feel demanded by most buyers of focused cars over the last ten years or so.
The GT3 RS 4.0 and 3.8 997 both had a really ott heavy knee crunching clutches which are disliked by many including myself but bizarrly Porsche have now gone to the other extreme with the 718 GT4 Spyder and 991.2 GT3 manual where the clutches are now too light for a relatively hardcore Porsche GT car (esp the GT3) however Porsche presumably think this is what their customers want but many including myself would disagree.
The sweetspot in terms of clutch weighting is probably the 981 GT4 which had just the right amount of feel but was not too heavy for regular use but not too light to feel disengaged from the transmission.
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