Why did people spec auto on performance cars?
Discussion
I think auto boxes are so much better now that I would personally prefer a performance car with an auto PDK/DSG transmission. Looking back at older Porsche 996/986/987 there is no way I would choose a car with the Tiptronic box.
I think older performance cars with manual boxes sell at a premium as the auto boxes of this era were poor and the manual option was rarer.
There seems to have been a cut over in the last five to ten years were the auto boxes became so good that the manual is seen as the inferior option.
I am 46 now and driving a manual as a daily is becoming more and more of a chore that I suspect the time has come to go for an auto next time.
I think older performance cars with manual boxes sell at a premium as the auto boxes of this era were poor and the manual option was rarer.
There seems to have been a cut over in the last five to ten years were the auto boxes became so good that the manual is seen as the inferior option.
I am 46 now and driving a manual as a daily is becoming more and more of a chore that I suspect the time has come to go for an auto next time.
Joey Deacon said:
I think auto boxes are so much better now that I would personally prefer a performance car with an auto PDK/DSG transmission. Looking back at older Porsche 996/986/987 there is no way I would choose a car with the Tiptronic box.
I think older performance cars with manual boxes sell at a premium as the auto boxes of this era were poor and the manual option was rarer.
There seems to have been a cut over in the last five to ten years were the auto boxes became so good that the manual is seen as the inferior option.
I am 46 now and driving a manual as a daily is becoming more and more of a chore that I suspect the time has come to go for an auto next time.
I respectfully disagree with this. Back in the 80-90 the equivalent auto was slower than the manual. Its not surprising to me that as the changeover took place in the millennium, so the majority of drivers made their decisions based on the performance statistics not how good the box was, just how fast it was. All autos now are faster than their manual alternatives. I think older performance cars with manual boxes sell at a premium as the auto boxes of this era were poor and the manual option was rarer.
There seems to have been a cut over in the last five to ten years were the auto boxes became so good that the manual is seen as the inferior option.
I am 46 now and driving a manual as a daily is becoming more and more of a chore that I suspect the time has come to go for an auto next time.
I think people are VERY influenced by the statistics rather than a personal valued judgement of how good something is.
I suspect for this very reason there are two types of people buying electric cars. Eco-friendly, and those who see the electric can as the successor to the ICE auto due to the performance improvement.
I think it is a more powerful motivator for most, than how much fun something is.
Last year when I bought a Cayman, I was trying to decide between PDK and manual. I’d always driven manuals prior to that (aside from a few courtesy cars), and I just couldn’t gel with the PDK on test drives. It obviously is an amazing gearbox, but I just didn’t feel involved. So I bought a manual.
But then, my driving doesn’t include many traffic jams. On prior cars, whenever I’ve had to go into a major city I’ve regretted having manuals. Can completely understand why people spec PDK.
It’s good that both options are there. Though when everyone switches to electric, guess I’ll have to find something else for my left foot to do.
But then, my driving doesn’t include many traffic jams. On prior cars, whenever I’ve had to go into a major city I’ve regretted having manuals. Can completely understand why people spec PDK.
It’s good that both options are there. Though when everyone switches to electric, guess I’ll have to find something else for my left foot to do.
Slushy old fashioned auto-'boxes have no place in a performance car, but there are not many of those about these days.
A paddle-shift operated dual-clutch gearbox is much more engaging than a car which you just press-&-go, you have control over when you change gear so all the 'oh it's not engaging... ' is just tosh.
PDK and their like may have a manual option, but if you are changing gears yourself it is not an 'automatic' gearbox.
A paddle-shift operated dual-clutch gearbox is much more engaging than a car which you just press-&-go, you have control over when you change gear so all the 'oh it's not engaging... ' is just tosh.
PDK and their like may have a manual option, but if you are changing gears yourself it is not an 'automatic' gearbox.
The Surveyor said:
Slushy old fashioned auto-'boxes have no place in a performance car, but there are not many of those about these days.
A paddle-shift operated dual-clutch gearbox is much more engaging than a car which you just press-&-go, you have control over when you change gear so all the 'oh it's not engaging... ' is just tosh.
PDK and their like may have a manual option, but if you are changing gears yourself it is not an 'automatic' gearbox.
Different people find different things engaging. For me, pressing a button isnt engaging, but for others it is.A paddle-shift operated dual-clutch gearbox is much more engaging than a car which you just press-&-go, you have control over when you change gear so all the 'oh it's not engaging... ' is just tosh.
PDK and their like may have a manual option, but if you are changing gears yourself it is not an 'automatic' gearbox.
Raygun said:
For many years now (at least 40 years) I've always thought performance cars should have manual gearboxes, we've had tiptronic, auto etc but s/h it's always manual that commands a premium. I just don't understand why anyone buying a performance car with an option of a manual gearbox would not tick that box on a spec sheet?
Because it's not 1978 any more and modern autos are better than manuals for speed , consistency and economy.Unless it was a caterham or similar type of car, or perhaps a Porsche cayman gt4 then I'd always spec the auto assuming it was a good auto.
certainly in middling hatchbacks, golf R, m140i etc types of cars the auto is significantly better overall.
xjay1337 said:
Raygun said:
For many years now (at least 40 years) I've always thought performance cars should have manual gearboxes, we've had tiptronic, auto etc but s/h it's always manual that commands a premium. I just don't understand why anyone buying a performance car with an option of a manual gearbox would not tick that box on a spec sheet?
Because it's not 1978 any more and modern autos are better than manuals for speed , consistency and economy.Unless it was a caterham or similar type of car, or perhaps a Porsche cayman gt4 then I'd always spec the auto assuming it was a good auto.
certainly in middling hatchbacks, golf R, m140i etc types of cars the auto is significantly better overall.
I wouldn't have even considered buying my Lambo in manual. I want the ease and convenience of using it around town. I can still use the paddle things if I want to change up and down myself anyway.
If I was buying a car to use 45 minutes every Sunday morning I might have considered a manual. But I want a car I can use to take my dog to the park or go into the congested town centre and pick up a takeaway so the manual option would have been a poor one. The autos faster and safer anyway... just an all round better option.
If I was buying a car to use 45 minutes every Sunday morning I might have considered a manual. But I want a car I can use to take my dog to the park or go into the congested town centre and pick up a takeaway so the manual option would have been a poor one. The autos faster and safer anyway... just an all round better option.
Edited by Algarve on Wednesday 24th June 11:45
I had no choice, the manual option was dropped by the time I ordered y vat, but I’d have ordered the auto anyway...
BMW manuals gearboxes that I’ve owned / driven have largely not been that pleasant and my car is a daily driver and an auto makes them majority if it’s use better. I do sometimes miss a manual gearbox but not all that often. The ZF8 in my car seems to weird well with and complement the engine well.
BMW manuals gearboxes that I’ve owned / driven have largely not been that pleasant and my car is a daily driver and an auto makes them majority if it’s use better. I do sometimes miss a manual gearbox but not all that often. The ZF8 in my car seems to weird well with and complement the engine well.
kambites said:
Ultimately this is what it comes down to - preference. Personally I wouldn't buy an automatic sports car but I wouldn't buy another manual family car either.
Mrs changed from a manual Arona to a new automatic Toyota CHR and loves it, she says she wouldn't want to go back to manual. That was the first auto she's had. I wanted my Ford Ranger in auto but took one in manual cos I'd rather compromise on that and get it now, than wait 5+ months. Autos just so much better for, well everything really.
Algarve said:
kambites said:
Ultimately this is what it comes down to - preference. Personally I wouldn't buy an automatic sports car but I wouldn't buy another manual family car either.
Mrs changed from a manual Arona to a new automatic Toyota CHR and loves it, she says she wouldn't want to go back to manual. That was the first auto she's had. I wanted my Ford Ranger in auto but took one in manual cos I'd rather compromise on that and get it now, than wait 5+ months. Autos just so much better for, well everything really.
xjay1337 said:
certainly in middling hatchbacks, golf R, m140i etc types of cars the auto is significantly better overall.
I have a Golf GTI DSG. I can perhaps agree that it's better than a manual *overall*, but on specifics like pure enjoyment of driving, or engagement, it's simply worse than a manual.plfrench said:
paddy1970 said:
I would go for a manual if the car has less than 350-400 bhp.
If you're talking new, I don't think you'd have much choice other than auto if above 350-400 bhp... Do any manufacturers other than Porsche still offer a manual with over 400 bhp? 
Once you get above 600bhp you're pretty much stuck with the yanks if you want a mansmission
It's a great demonstration of the power of marketing that ultimate speed is such an apparently important metric to so many people on here, the gear change taking 200ms instead of what, 800ms or so if a quickish manual, being so crucial in their road car where performance times are absolutely irrelevant.
Edited by SturdyHSV on Wednesday 24th June 12:06
Olivera said:
xjay1337 said:
certainly in middling hatchbacks, golf R, m140i etc types of cars the auto is significantly better overall.
I have a Golf GTI DSG. I can perhaps agree that it's better than a manual *overall*, but on specifics like pure enjoyment of driving, or engagement, it's simply worse than a manual.SturdyHSV said:
First ones that spring to mind are Chevrolet, Ford and Dodge, I assume some of the BMWs must do as well (M2/3/4?) if one simply must have something German
Once you get above 600bhp you're pretty much stuck with the yanks if you want a mansmission
It's a great demonstration of the power of marketing that ultimate speed is such an apparently important metric to so many people on here, the gear change taking 200ms instead of what, 800ms or so if a quickish manual, being so crucial in their road car where performance times are absolutely irrelevant.
Good shout - I knew there must have been other options, but none sprang to mind Once you get above 600bhp you're pretty much stuck with the yanks if you want a mansmission
It's a great demonstration of the power of marketing that ultimate speed is such an apparently important metric to so many people on here, the gear change taking 200ms instead of what, 800ms or so if a quickish manual, being so crucial in their road car where performance times are absolutely irrelevant.
Edited by SturdyHSV on Wednesday 24th June 12:06
I am also in the manual sports car camp. As the OP points out, they usually command a premium as the years go by, but I think that is a generational thing, which might not last much longer, unless you’re talking super rare models. If you’ve grown up wanting a McLaren since the MP4-12C days, you won’t necessarily be interested in buying any manual supercar when you’re old and lucky enough to be able to afford one.
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