Why did people spec auto on performance cars?

Why did people spec auto on performance cars?

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Discussion

Byker28i

58,831 posts

216 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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Algarve said:
I wouldn't have even considered buying my Lambo in manual. I want the ease and convenience of using it around town. I can still use the paddle things if I want to change up and down myself anyway.

... I want a car I can use to take my dog to the park or go into the congested town centre and pick up a takeaway so the manual option would have been a poor one. The autos faster and safer anyway... just an all round better option.
A Lambo to pick up takeaways and take the dog to the Park? I'm impressed the old PH ethos is strong with this one biggrin

Mouse Rat

1,798 posts

91 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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a sports car needs to be a manual.
This gives more control over the car. I can engine brake better, select gears rather than sequentially, blip the throttle in gear and have control over engine speed v road speed.

However, for day to day driving or lap times a modern auto with paddle shift is perfect.


av185

18,433 posts

126 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
Unfortunately very few true performance cars have a manual option these days.

Manual is far more involving and a greater challenge hence greater fun which is what driving a performance car is all about.

Flappy paddle gearboxes have their place perhaps for commuting, city traffic or extreme winter driving for those liking uninvolving driving but for anyone interested in proper driving there really is no comparison in the manual auto debate. Every pull of the flappy paddle is the same in every gear so how is that involving or skillful. Most 12 year old kids or grannies could drive a flappy paddle gearbox car, not so manual. Whereas every gear change in every gear is different with a manual require great skill to master especially at speed. Try changing gear at speed with a manual and only one hand on the steering wheel.

A good analogy is manual is freshly ground individual quality coffee whereas auto is instant run of the mill meh meh diluted coffee marketed to please the masses.


CooperS

4,500 posts

218 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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Someone had already mentioned these points but:

To get volume car manufacturers chase the biggest market.
The biggest market demand auto because
A) Autos have improved immensely in the past 20 years
B) most people can't afford (new) to have multiple cars so if they are specing that Porsche usually it will be used for the commute as much as the fun Sunday blast
C) sports car aren't bought exclusively by car enthusiasts and are trinkets so ease of drive is a major factor.

None of these make you a bad person btw.

For me as a someone who had owned a few manual sports cars in my mid 20's time has moved on and i have a family sized mortgage and everything that comes with being mid 30's. We have two cars. An EV family everyday car and a little hot hatch in auto (predominantly wife's car). If I could buy a third car then maybe but I love my EV and whilst my wife could take the EV would never go back to a manual so whatever 'fun' car needs to be slightly practical (so no 2 seaters) and definitely an auto.

PanicBuyingBogRoll

1,936 posts

61 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
Mouse Rat said:
a sports car needs to be a manual.
This gives more control over the car. I can engine brake better, select gears rather than sequentially, blip the throttle in gear and have control over engine speed v road speed.

However, for day to day driving or lap times a modern auto with paddle shift is perfect.
If that were the case then every major motorsport would still be manual.

I can select any gear I want with the paddles (or gearstick) faster than I could with a manual.

If for some reason I really wanted to blip the throttle, I can knock it into neutral.

And probably do all that faster than the time it takes to press the clutch pedal.

I can also left foot break and keep both hands on the steering wheel all the time.


Edited by PanicBuyingBogRoll on Wednesday 24th June 14:34

NDNDNDND

2,001 posts

182 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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I think the reason why this subject is increasingly divisive is due to the erosion of choice. Ten or so years ago, if you wanted a manual you could spec a manual, and if you wanted an auto you could spec an auto. For a variety of reasons (including gaming the emissions tests) manufacturers have increasingly dropped the manual and incentivized the automatic. Cheap lease deals probably help too, where the extra cost of the 'luxury' transmission can be lost in the monthly rates.

As such, people who prefer driving a manual and find the auto a bit boring are being quite vocal and defensive about keeping the manual - because they know it's under threat. Markets where manufacturers have reintroduced the manual (I'm thinking BMW in America and Porsche in their GT cars) have done so because of vocal support from enthusiasts.

As for autos getting better than manuals, I think it's going both ways. The auto has been getting better, but manual transmissions have been getting worse. The interference of drive-by-wire throttles maps and clutch delay valves have eroded the intuitive nature of changing gear, and I've found changing gear in a couple of cars has been rendered quite a faff by having to negotiate around this nonsense.

As for people buying autos because they're better, I doubt that's actually true. Autos are bought because they're easier. When Ferrari introduced the F1 transmission it outsold the manual, even though the F1 'box was widely and publicly panned by journalists and described as frustrating and inferior to the manual. People still bought it because it was easier, even though it was worse.

Baldchap

7,507 posts

91 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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I think people are confusing drivers' cars with performance cars.

The Golf R/Audi RS/911 etc are performance cars but not necessarily drivers' cars. Auto or manual - your choice. Many suit the auto and perform better as one.

Drivers' cars are things like Caterhams, Elises etc. Cars where driving is the purpose, not simply getting to a destination quickly. These, I think most will agree, should be manual.

Alex_225

6,234 posts

200 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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paddy1970 said:
I would go for a manual if the car has less than 350-400 bhp.

After that threshold (when driving at high speed), things are happening a bit too fast for me to manage both clutch/gear stick and the rest (but I am an old fart!). However, I nearly always use the manual DCT function on the road/track. I find the paddle-shift a lot easier and faster to use than the gear shift. I only use the DTC in automatic mode when I am in traffic or cruising (rarely).
I think I'm with you on that. I bought my CLS63 and it's got a 7 speed auto, it's a normal auto not dual clutch but with a pull of the paddles it changes gear more quickly than I would. I mean I'm sure if I tailored my gear changes to be as fast as possible I might do it justice but I think 500bhp mated to that gearbox works really well. The enjoyment comes from the wafting combined with the power.

But I drove a friends 2006 911 Carrera so about 320bhp and it felt good to change gear and  it was part of the driving experience. I know a dual clutch would be quicker but it felt like a nice balance of quick and manual.

av185

18,433 posts

126 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
Alex_225 said:
I think I'm with you on that. I bought my CLS63 and it's got a 7 speed auto, it's a normal auto not dual clutch but with a pull of the paddles it changes gear more quickly than I would. I mean I'm sure if I tailored my gear changes to be as fast as possible I might do it justice but I think 500bhp mated to that gearbox works really well. The enjoyment comes from the wafting combined with the power.

But I drove a friends 2006 911 Carrera so about 320bhp and it felt good to change gear and  it was part of the driving experience. I know a dual clutch would be quicker but it felt like a nice balance of quick and manual.
Latest 991.2 GT3 manual gearbox has a flatshift facility which makes it as rapid as the PDK S box but far more involving and much more fun too.




SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
NDNDNDND said:
I think the reason why this subject is increasingly divisive is due to the erosion of choice. Ten or so years ago, if you wanted a manual you could spec a manual, and if you wanted an auto you could spec an auto. For a variety of reasons (including gaming the emissions tests) manufacturers have increasingly dropped the manual and incentivized the automatic. Cheap lease deals probably help too, where the extra cost of the 'luxury' transmission can be lost in the monthly rates.

As such, people who prefer driving a manual and find the auto a bit boring are being quite vocal and defensive about keeping the manual - because they know it's under threat. Markets where manufacturers have reintroduced the manual (I'm thinking BMW in America and Porsche in their GT cars) have done so because of vocal support from enthusiasts.

As for autos getting better than manuals, I think it's going both ways. The auto has been getting better, but manual transmissions have been getting worse. The interference of drive-by-wire throttles maps and clutch delay valves have eroded the intuitive nature of changing gear, and I've found changing gear in a couple of cars has been rendered quite a faff by having to negotiate around this nonsense.

As for people buying autos because they're better, I doubt that's actually true. Autos are bought because they're easier. When Ferrari introduced the F1 transmission it outsold the manual, even though the F1 'box was widely and publicly panned by journalists and described as frustrating and inferior to the manual. People still bought it because it was easier, even though it was worse.
It's also because guys who prefer autos don't want to feel they can't drive/appreciate cars/know nothing. So they bang on about speed etc.

This sort of chat helps them feel less insecure.

DaveCWK

1,979 posts

173 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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Don't forget 'herd mentality' or resale.
There will be a few people choosing auto purely because it's perceived/does result in a higher resale value/easier sell, rather than it being their preferred choice.
Most cars seem to be generally specced this way, 'for the next owner', hence some really good options are hardly ever chosen - BMW comfort seats being one example.

Miserablegit

4,013 posts

108 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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SturdyHSV said:
It's a great demonstration of the power of marketing that ultimate speed is such an apparently important metric to so many people on here, the gear change taking 200ms instead of what, 800ms or so if a quickish manual, being so crucial in their road car where performance times are absolutely irrelevant.

Edited by SturdyHSV on Wednesday 24th June 12:06
The same criticism can be levelled at manuals.
A lot of manual sports cars are geared for about 82mph in second. It might be emissions based, 0-62 times based or in order to allow 6th gear to get to 175mph for pub bragging rights.
I’d rather have 7 useable ratios in a dct/pdk box rather than 3 useable gears in a manual box- keeping the rest for special occasions! Changing gears in a manual from 2-3-2 is not, to me, as involving as using a pdk/dct moving from 2-3-4-5-4-3-2


J4CKO

41,287 posts

199 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
I want to go back to a manual, autos are great for when you are in traffic and doing a lot of miles but for fun, think a manual is the way to go.

Autos are a bit like having someone sat next to doing the gears for you and not doing exactly what you expect, used to be horrendous, now they are very good but its still a feeling of being partly disconnected from whats going on

It isnt a macho purist thing either, autos enhance 90 percent of time driving but largely ruin that last ten percent when you do get to drive a car properly when there isnt traffic and its the right kind of road. never really got with the paddles aspect, this most of its missing the clutch.

Might live to regret going back but can always get another auto but it is getting people ready for self driving EV's quite nicely.

The Surveyor

7,576 posts

236 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
Miserablegit said:
SturdyHSV said:
It's a great demonstration of the power of marketing that ultimate speed is such an apparently important metric to so many people on here, the gear change taking 200ms instead of what, 800ms or so if a quickish manual, being so crucial in their road car where performance times are absolutely irrelevant.

Edited by SturdyHSV on Wednesday 24th June 12:06
The same criticism can be levelled at manuals.
A lot of manual sports cars are geared for about 82mph in second. It might be emissions based, 0-62 times based or in order to allow 6th gear to get to 175mph for pub bragging rights.
I’d rather have 7 useable ratios in a dct/pdk box rather than 3 useable gears in a manual box- keeping the rest for special occasions! Changing gears in a manual from 2-3-2 is not, to me, as involving as using a pdk/dct moving from 2-3-4-5-4-3-2
Exactly, the main (or only..) criticism of the new GT4 is that the ratio's are all wrong. No point having a manual gearbox if it actually spoils the driver involvement with over-long gearing.

I had a manual Aston Martin V8 Vantage and whilst the ratio's were spot-on, the shift action and numb clutch ruined a decent sports car. There are too many examples around where manual does not equal 'best' IMHO.

WJNB

2,637 posts

160 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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I have often wondered that myself then realised that it's F1 motor racing that have got it all wrong. A tinsy little gearstick & a third pedal is the trick they are missing so go tell Mr McLaren & all the rest because they obviously know less than Phers.

J4CKO

41,287 posts

199 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
WJNB said:
I have often wondered that myself then realised that it's F1 motor racing that have got it all wrong. A tinsy little gearstick & a third pedal is the trick they are missing so go tell Mr McLaren & all the rest because they obviously know less than Phers.
F1 is about winning races, not the driver enjoying the ride, simply about fitting within the rules and going as fast as possible.

Plus its a personal thing, some folk hate manuals and dont ever want to drive one, some hate autos and a lot inbetween.

Autos have got better and much more popular, and for most drivers, in most situations its the better choice. There will always be those that relish the additional level of interaction and control you have, but even they sometimes fancy a day off, its no fun on the nose to tail M6 for three hours with your left leg complaining.

McLaren make Supercars and Hypercars, they are at the cutting edge and have only been around a few years, they have never offered a manual, in fact not sure you can buy a manual supercar any more, thats where the market is going but supercars arent relevant for most of us.

Manuals will die out as most will migrate to autos and EV's, the folk who have any experience of them will get old and die out.


DoubleD

22,154 posts

107 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
WJNB said:
I have often wondered that myself then realised that it's F1 motor racing that have got it all wrong. A tinsy little gearstick & a third pedal is the trick they are missing so go tell Mr McLaren & all the rest because they obviously know less than Phers.
Good point, manual F1 cars were more fun to watch.

Mouse Rat

1,798 posts

91 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
PanicBuyingBogRoll said:
Mouse Rat said:
a sports car needs to be a manual.
This gives more control over the car. I can engine brake better, select gears rather than sequentially, blip the throttle in gear and have control over engine speed v road speed.

However, for day to day driving or lap times a modern auto with paddle shift is perfect.
If that were the case then every major motorsport would still be manual.

I can select any gear I want with the paddles (or gearstick) faster than I could with a manual.

If for some reason I really wanted to blip the throttle, I can knock it into neutral.

And probably do all that faster than the time it takes to press the clutch pedal.

I can also left foot break and keep both hands on the steering wheel all the time.


Edited by PanicBuyingBogRoll on Wednesday 24th June 14:34
Like I said, for laptimes an auto / paddle shift is fine.

But you can select any gear at any time and control the engine speed with a manual. You cant rev match from 5th to 2nd in an auto.

av185

18,433 posts

126 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
The Surveyor said:
Exactly, the main (or only..) criticism of the new GT4 is that the ratio's are all wrong. No point having a manual gearbox if it actually spoils the driver involvement with over-long gearing.
The 718 GT4 gearbox is the same as the 981 GT4 gearbox and you are correct the gears are slightly long although this is an issue more in the 981 than the 718 as it has less torque.

Porsche deliberately made the GT4 ratios long to preserve the performance crown of certain 911s.

A PDK GT4 is due late this year/early next.

vikingaero

10,256 posts

168 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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Not all of us live in Buttfksville Population 0. Even you average surburbia is congested as hell. Drive on the average British motorway - congestion and tailbacks.

I couldn't care less that someone thinks my car isn't a performance car as it is an auto. It suits my needs.