RE: 'Hard Top' returns to Land Rover Defender

RE: 'Hard Top' returns to Land Rover Defender

Author
Discussion

300bhp/ton

38,603 posts

145 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
camel_landy said:
IMO - This is where your thinking goes off the rails...

You are applying YOUR interpretation of what you think it should be. It is not your brand, product, etc... It is JLRs. It's not up to you to decide what parts of the original design brief and what moments in history are important, that's for JLR and JLR alone to decide.
Lol, but surely history is history. You can just rewrite it suit a current marking goal. Doesn't matter if they own the IP or not.

e.g.

If this appeared on a website being touted as the "sports car you always wanted". Do you not think some might object?


Zed Ed

934 posts

138 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Is there going to be a soft top version? Always liked that feature on the Wrangler.

DoubleD

12,721 posts

63 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Lol, but surely history is history. You can just rewrite it suit a current marking goal. Doesn't matter if they own the IP or not.

e.g.

If this appeared on a website being touted as the "sports car you always wanted". Do you not think some might object?

You are right thats history, so is the old Defender, they had to end production and create a new car and this is it.

2xChevrons

875 posts

35 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
camel_landy said:
...don't forget the door stay, switch bracket and wiper motor, all reducing that opening even further!! hehe

M
That was always one of the most egregious failings of the Land Rover from a utilitarian point of view, to me. The load bay wasn't just rather small but badly shaped (long wheel boxes, rear-sloping bulkhead behind the seats, narrow door [with wiper motor etc. as you say]), no lash-down points and so on.

There are little UTVs that can carry standard pallets, something beyond the standard Defender. They had to develop a whole dedicated body style - the HCPU - to carry loads that can be accommodated by a normal van or pick-up.

Even Santana managed to sort that out - the PS-10 had a wider rear door and smaller wheelboxes so it could carry a pallet.

I've only ever owned SWB Land Rovers, which obviously aren't primarily intended for bulky loads, but it's ridiculous the amount of fairly typical loads that either wouldn't fit in it or would fit in the load bed but not through the door or tailgate. A couple of times I resorted to taking the rear bench out of my 2CV and carrying whatever it was in that...

camel_landy

3,057 posts

138 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Doesn't matter if they own the IP or not.
Meanwhile, back on Earth...

M

Tom_Spotley_When

427 posts

112 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Looks like the perfect family car for me.

I’d imagine I’ll be signing up for a new one in 3 or 4 years time. Strikes me as being the ideal car to bumble around the South West in. Full of kids, bikes, dogs, surf-boards, tents etc.

Wife can park it by her yoga studio and coffee spots on a Saturday morning, I can park it in a mtb car park on a Saturday afternoon and we can take it skiing each winter.

There’s not another car in the Land Rover Range that I could see myself doing that with. The new Disco looks awful (and seems expensive) and the FFRR is lovely but far too pricey for me to buy new, so a Defender it is!

oldtimer2

700 posts

88 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
A.J.M said:
That’s very interesting, in a genuine way.
I’ve got a couple of his books. Quiet for a Tuesday is a fantastic read.

Is he still using his G wagon as he got fed up with the issues on his 300tdi defender and sold it having used Land Rover products for years.

If he’s considering going back to LR stuff and this new Defender then it must tick the boxes for long range unsupported off road driving.
I too have his book Quiet for a Tuesday, a fascinating read. He takes excellent photographs as well as being a very good writer. He said he has sold his G Wagen; as I recall that went into limp mode on his return from that Algerian trip causing a long slow drive back to Austria to get it fixed. But at the time they were unable to diagnose the cause.

Speaking of range I did my first fill to the brim today after c375 miles at c36 mpg. On that consumption the range was stated to be 611 miles which is respectable. Allowing for more varied driving I would expect to get ar least 500 miles in every day driving.

Aids0G

239 posts

104 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Aids0G said:
The challenge is, by this measure the Discovery should have been re-named going from D2 to D3 as it took an equally large leap in terms of the previously mentioned hardware changes.
I don't think the Discovery did take such a huge step. The Discovery was always a complimentary vehicle to the Defender rather than an alternative. They fulfilled different roles. i.e. it would not be unusual to find a person/family owning both. There is some crossover in abilities, but there is a clear distinction between them.

So even accepting that the underlying chassis/suspension were very similar on both models. The Discovery used a separate body tub mounted on rubber isolating donuts. It's body was not modular or configurable like the Defenders.

NVH played a much bigger role for the Discovery. And indeed they are a refined, comfortable and quiet place to be. Especially if it was a V8. The interior space was also radically different, with much more room per person than a Defender. And a much more substantial interior.

The step from D2 to D3 was in my mind quite evolutionary. In regards to the purpose of the vehicle and its intended use. I admit, the D3 did push it up market a bit more, but that seems a trend across the board, not just with Land Rover. Fundamentally however, the D3 did exactly what the D2 did. Regardless of how it was constructed under the body.

With the Defender the step has been revolutionary. This new model is not designed to fulfil the brief of the past one, nor any variant of the Defender/Series line up since 1948. It is a radically different type of vehicle, aimed at being used for different kinds of things. So in light of your comment below. I just do not see how it shares the Defenders history. It just doesn't. It shares the 1970's Range Rover or the 1989 Discovery's history very well however.

The 'history' of the Land Rover (note the name, it was a Rover car model when introduced. The brand was not Land Rover, that was the model. A Rover for use on the land). The history of this particular model was as a multipurpose, utilitarian, configurable 4x4. The new model simply isn't this, again like the D1 it has some cross over in terms of abilities. But its design focus is clear. And it clearly is not that of its forebears or namesakes.

Aids0G said:
The new Defender is a 'Defender' because it shares a history with the previous model, will appeal to owners of the previous model (i.e me((in a few years when I have the £££)) and crucially its Landrover's discretion as to how they name their models as its their heritage, they are not as you said 'raping' the heritage, vehicle design moves forward this should be celebrated.
Just out of curiosity, would you swap/trade in your current Defender against a new one?
Interesting question, would I trade in my 90? Taking aside my emotional (15 years ownership multiple engines etc, claims I will be buried in it!!) attachment issues, yes I would trade my 90 for a new 110 base spec just the centre console and active locking rear diff. Really it would be a perfect vehicle for me, aside from the more extreme off road trials/pay&play days, it would be ideal.

I know you may disagree with me but the heritage of the model and brand I feel is very much present in the current Defender, combined with the ability of the new platform to me it is a true Defender.



300bhp/ton

38,603 posts

145 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Zed Ed said:
Is there going to be a soft top version? Always liked that feature on the Wrangler.
I wouldn't have thought so. The Wrangler is a ladder chassis, so cutting the roof off doesn't impact it as much. The new Defender is monocoque/unibody. So cutting the top off has bigger implications.

However JLR did do that with the 3 door Evoque. Which sadly meets much ridicule on here and other places (I rather liked it myself). I'm not sure it sold very well.

A.J.M

6,609 posts

141 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
oldtimer2 said:
A.J.M said:
That’s very interesting, in a genuine way.
I’ve got a couple of his books. Quiet for a Tuesday is a fantastic read.

Is he still using his G wagon as he got fed up with the issues on his 300tdi defender and sold it having used Land Rover products for years.

If he’s considering going back to LR stuff and this new Defender then it must tick the boxes for long range unsupported off road driving.
I too have his book Quiet for a Tuesday, a fascinating read. He takes excellent photographs as well as being a very good writer. He said he has sold his G Wagen; as I recall that went into limp mode on his return from that Algerian trip causing a long slow drive back to Austria to get it fixed. But at the time they were unable to diagnose the cause.

Speaking of range I did my first fill to the brim today after c375 miles at c36 mpg. On that consumption the range was stated to be 611 miles which is respectable. Allowing for more varied driving I would expect to get ar least 500 miles in every day driving.
Agreed, superb writer and very good photographer. A worthy read and one I found I couldn’t put down when started.

I didn’t know about the G wagon issue.
That’s a shame as he seemed to enjoy owning it.

I wonder if he will follow through with getting a 90. That would be a big boost to JLR as he does remarkable things.

How do you find your own D240?
Engine powerful enough etc?

A 110 is a future buy for me. Sadly having to sell my D3 to help fund a house with my gf so she’s agreed in a few years to help buy a 110 as payback as she knows how attached I am to the D3. A nice HSE spec and maybe with the 3.0 engine.

biggles330d

450 posts

105 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
2xChevrons said:
camel_landy said:
...don't forget the door stay, switch bracket and wiper motor, all reducing that opening even further!! hehe

M
That was always one of the most egregious failings of the Land Rover from a utilitarian point of view, to me. The load bay wasn't just rather small but badly shaped (long wheel boxes, rear-sloping bulkhead behind the seats, narrow door [with wiper motor etc. as you say]), no lash-down points and so on.

There are little UTVs that can carry standard pallets, something beyond the standard Defender. They had to develop a whole dedicated body style - the HCPU - to carry loads that can be accommodated by a normal van or pick-up.

Even Santana managed to sort that out - the PS-10 had a wider rear door and smaller wheelboxes so it could carry a pallet.

I've only ever owned SWB Land Rovers, which obviously aren't primarily intended for bulky loads, but it's ridiculous the amount of fairly typical loads that either wouldn't fit in it or would fit in the load bed but not through the door or tailgate. A couple of times I resorted to taking the rear bench out of my 2CV and carrying whatever it was in that...
So in summary, for all the love of the original Defender and that it is everything the new one isn't... actually the commercial version of it was pretty useless for what appeared to be its core purpose. Sounds like the new one has some of that fixed.
Have to say, capacity for a pallet in the back, flat floor, split tailgate, lash down points, off road capability, not too posh but excellent mile muncher and effortless with heavy trailers.... all things the Disco 4 commercial does very well.

300bhp/ton

38,603 posts

145 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Tom_Spotley_When said:
Looks like the perfect family car for me.

I’d imagine I’ll be signing up for a new one in 3 or 4 years time. Strikes me as being the ideal car to bumble around the South West in. Full of kids, bikes, dogs, surf-boards, tents etc.

Wife can park it by her yoga studio and coffee spots on a Saturday morning, I can park it in a mtb car park on a Saturday afternoon and we can take it skiing each winter.
I'm pretty sure this is the exact market that the original Discovery was targeted at. Sadly I can't get Google to bring up any old (1989-1990) Discovery ads.

The Defender was about having the ability to ford every river and cross every mountain.


Tom_Spotley_When

427 posts

112 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Tom_Spotley_When said:
Looks like the perfect family car for me.

I’d imagine I’ll be signing up for a new one in 3 or 4 years time. Strikes me as being the ideal car to bumble around the South West in. Full of kids, bikes, dogs, surf-boards, tents etc.

Wife can park it by her yoga studio and coffee spots on a Saturday morning, I can park it in a mtb car park on a Saturday afternoon and we can take it skiing each winter.
I'm pretty sure this is the exact market that the original Discovery was targeted at. Sadly I can't get Google to bring up any old (1989-1990) Discovery ads.

The Defender was about having the ability to ford every river and cross every mountain.
And the point is? I’d have a Defender already if it wasn’t for the fact that driving one daily requires a level of commitment that I don’t have.

Based on name and looks alone, I like the new one and expect I’ll have one. It’s highly unlikely that it’ll ford every stream and cross every valley, but it’ll look damn good with a retriever in the back at the local farm shop.

300bhp/ton

38,603 posts

145 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Aids0G said:
I know you may disagree with me but the heritage of the model and brand I feel is very much present in the current Defender, combined with the ability of the new platform to me it is a true Defender.
Just remember the Defender/Series heritage is also made up of things like this:







among many others. And I just can't see how this new model is going to fill those shoes.

FN2TypeR

7,076 posts

48 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
The three door Wilks Bro's one is cool AF in my opinion - love it cool

jakeb

185 posts

149 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Numeric said:
As for speed limits - if a vehcile retains rear seats and is a 'combi' commercial it is OK to drive at 60 on an A road, otherwise it is 50 if no rear seats - important to remember, with a further caveat that if the 'empty weight' (this is not the same as kerb weight be that EU or UK standard) exceeds 2040kg it is also restricted to 50 mph, so most posh pickups with a full hard top will likely be over that weight, though of course the vehicle would have to be tested to confirm, while without the hard top they may be under as it is often very close. Without rear seats these defenders are pure 50mph vehicles.

Edited by Numeric on Tuesday 30th June 07:05
And i dont think it can be a combi because you cant get a euro pallet in the back without putting the seats down to satisfy HMRC for VAT. All though perhaps you can be a commercial without claiming the vat back but then what's the point! Its all very complex and boring and i certainly wouldnt want the arguement. Heads HMRC wins, tails HMRC wins in these sort of cases.

oldtimer2

700 posts

88 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
JLR's Land Rover line up in the 4x4 3.5 ton GVW category is very straightforward and with the new Defender, as the dual purpose variant, is now complete. It is consistent with the approach adopted from the early 1980s when Range Rover started to evolve, in response to customer demand, into a luxury vehicle, supplemented by the Discovery as a family vehicle in the late 1980s.

Time alone will tell how well the new Defender fares in the global market place. It seems to me that the focus on the hard top as the commercial version makes sense for that slice of the market whose needs are not met by pick ups, and for which there is already abundant choice. Much will depend on how it meets tax considerations in different markets. That may well rule out the USA as a target market, unlike the passenger versions which seem well adapted to US needs. Based on my early impressions, and the reports of others who have actually driven it, Nick Rogers and his team have engineered a very capable vehicle. I wish it every success.

Max_Torque

15,176 posts

172 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
among many others. And I just can't see how this new model is going to fill those shoes.
OK, lets try this just one more time.

THE NEW MODEL DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING OF THE SORT.


Just like the new ford fiesta isn't a ModelT, the new Merc SLR isn't a pagoda, the new BMW isn't a 507 and in fact any new modern cars isn't an old car.


For some reason, Defender fanboys seem to think they own the brand, and that somehow, buying a single car gives them some say in the matter. It doesn't.. JLR own the defender name, they make they car, they can do anything they like with it, including reaslising that the old car was for a market that no-longer exists, and had 60 years of bagage (yes, like those old rear body internal box arches, making for an impactical load area, which were simply like that because the series 1 model, made 60 years before, had to use only folded panels and not pressed ones, because they couldn't afford the press tools in the post war recession.


The new car is the first proper, clean sheet design and ALL THE BETTER FOR IT. It now suits its target market (and no that isn't anyone who does "serious offroading" in a car thats 20 years old and cost £3k) it's a FAR better real world compromise, with JLR realsising that in the world today, for every "serious" off road mile driven, the car and occupants needs to be able to drive 10,000 road and gravel track type miles. This is precisely where the old defender fell down, and the reason everybody bought a toyota. Driving slowly, 20 miles down the road on 35" mud tyres and then playing in a small quarry just outside banbury for 3 hours until your roll upside down into a lake is NOT the offroading that the vast majority of owners of modern cars, and certainly not >£45k ones at that, actually do. They want to drive comfortably, reliably, without stress for large distances along tarmac'd roads mostly, sometimes along gravel roads, and they want to get where they are going (not break down on the way) and they want to be able to hear the radio, to have somewhere to put their right arm, and yes even to be able to walk away from an RTA when karen drives into them because she's too busy texting.



Am i being clear?



THE KING IS DEAD, LONG LIVE THE KING.........

Aids0G

239 posts

104 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Aids0G said:
I know you may disagree with me but the heritage of the model and brand I feel is very much present in the current Defender, combined with the ability of the new platform to me it is a true Defender.
Just remember the Defender/Series heritage is also made up of things like this:







among many others. And I just can't see how this new model is going to fill those shoes.
The Heritage certainly is made up of those uses, trouble is nowadays:

PTO implements & Grading/Farm use really is done by lightweight ATV's, Mules Gators etc.

The forestry commission special is very cool but limited scope for actual use.

Military stopped using Defenders front-line for very clear reasons.

Cherry pickers go on the much cheaper Pickup Truck frames.

I understand why the pictures/uses are relevant but the Defender has not really been used for 90% of those uses for many years now. The vehicle has to evolve and change to meet its real market.

Personally I think Land rover missed a real opportunity by stopping developing the 'Defender' effectively in 2007. Continual development i.e wider range of engines/transmissions, better drive-lines, wider body's, airbags etc would have kept it much more relevant. Easy to look backwards tho.



ate one too

2,047 posts

101 months

Tuesday 30th June
quotequote all
Common sense from Max Torque (as usual)

Bigoted bolux from 300 posts / month (as usual)

Bottom line is, as always, if you don't like it don't buy one.