RE: 'Hard Top' returns to Land Rover Defender

[DonkeyApple]

RoverP6B said:

Disco 3/4 was still a body-on-frame ladder-chassis job, though. It just used a welded bodyshell like the Yanks have been doing since the 1930s...

Personally, I can't understand why JLR haven't done a Chevrolet Suburban/Silverado rival. That would be a genuinely useful bit of kit in so many parts of the world. Massive, spacious, tough... they might even sell some in the UK. Could also look good with an updated P5B grille on it...

Volume. Simple as that. JLR is a volume restricted business so it cannot enter the ‘stack em high, sell em cheap’ space. And despite what people might think, they have been since they began.

The ecomocs don’t work for a cheap, mass market vehicle unless you have cheap land and cheap labour so as to be able to build them cheaply and then a global distribution network built around the poorest markets of a loacality. This three metrics are the absolute antithesis of what LR has ever been.

[camel_landy]

FA57REN said:

The original Discovery was a clever reuse of the outgoing RR chassis with a large, utilitarian body. It was practical, focused and classless.

I'd describe that more as a gamble which paid off rather than clever reuse and even then, it wasn't 'outgoing' as the chassis was still in use under the RR for another 6yrs.

M

[SuperPav]

DonkeyApple said:

RoverP6B said:

Disco 3/4 was still a body-on-frame ladder-chassis job, though. It just used a welded bodyshell like the Yanks have been doing since the 1930s...

Personally, I can't understand why JLR haven't done a Chevrolet Suburban/Silverado rival. That would be a genuinely useful bit of kit in so many parts of the world. Massive, spacious, tough... they might even sell some in the UK. Could also look good with an updated P5B grille on it...

Volume. Simple as that. JLR is a volume restricted business so it cannot enter the ‘stack em high, sell em cheap’ space. And despite what people might think, they have been since they began.

The ecomocs don’t work for a cheap, mass market vehicle unless you have cheap land and cheap labour so as to be able to build them cheaply and then a global distribution network built around the poorest markets of a loacality. This three metrics are the absolute antithesis of what LR has ever been.

Also, unless you manufacture IN USA, it's impossible to compete in that market with a light truck (and especially pick ups) due to the protectionist regulations. So JLR would need to team up with someone who's got facilities there. Remember, American trucks are only viable because of local sales.

Something to compete with a Ranger/Hilux in the rest of world could theoretically work, but again, JLR don't have a facility to pump out 500k of cheap pick-up trucks, and if they were to get one, it certainly wouldn't be in Europe! So other than ridiculous amounts of investment, they'd need to set up a new supplier base and presence somewhere else.

It's all very costly, all just to try and beat Toyota and Ford at their own game which they're actually good at - it's not a market segment that's crying out for a newcomer to change things up, I'm pretty sure most Hilux/Ranger customers are *relatively* happy with them and stick with them..

[Drekly]

DanielSan said:

I'll take mine in green please, 90 spec with the 3 seats so we can take the dog, and add the roof tent option. The perfect mountain bike weekend chariot.

I'm with you there, I'd want the same with white steel wheels, but you'd still have to mount the bike on a tow hitch mounted carrier and then the spare wheel might get in the way. Not sure if a 90 would take a couple of bikes inside with front wheels off. If only they could employ Tardis-technology.

[80sMatchbox]

Ed. said:

Are there really enough artisanal bakers and dog groomers to justify this?
Any current pickup drivers who see this as a viable option or is this just a marketing exercise to help family car sales?

These are my thoughts. More a marketing exercise than a financial one.

[bristolracer]

All the farmers around my way drive Isuzu's.

Anyone doing real work on the land buys an isuzu or a hilux.

Land rover cannot compete with toyota who probably make 20p on a hilux

Land rover can compete with the audi q7, the touareg, the cayenne, the x5, and the ML

Land rover would be stupid not to trade on their heritage, even though the isuzu is closer in purpose to the series one than the new defender is.

I think it possibly is trying a bit to hard with the looks,but I reckon it will be a big seller and a great export for them

[RoverP6B]

Cheap land and cheap labour to enable increased volume - isn't that what the JLR plants in Slovakia and India were for?

[TheOrangePeril]

Why does the 110 have rear doors?

[rustyuk]

I'd love one but with a decent spec they are pushing £70k. Think I will be sticking with the T6 and hope they lose 50% of their value in 3 years.

[300bhp/ton]

Max_Torque said:

I'm not sure how old you are, but i'm old enough to remember people saying EXACTLY THIS ^^^^ in 1983 when Land Rover replaced the series cars with the coilers! Not rugged enough, to namby pamby, not a properly Land rover, too much tech, too fancy. And they were as wrong back then as you are today........

Can you back this up? I don't recall anything like this and have not read anything along these lines. I think this was probably your view back then, more than anything else or of a single person you knew. Rather than general or common consensus.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 1st July 11:22

[300bhp/ton]

DonkeyApple said:

Not a single one of those is remotely relevant. And you actually know this.

No, you just can't read.

I never said the new model should do this. I said the PAST model had, the thing that actually makes up the history and heritage. That is factual, not an opinion. So remove yourself from your hobbyhorse and stop trying to counter anything I say, just because you couldn't be bothered to read it properly.

[300bhp/ton]

TheOrangePeril said:

Why does the 110 have rear doors?

Look at the commercial offerings for the D2/3/4 they are the same.

[camel_landy]

300bhp/ton said:

I think this was probably your view back then, more than anything else or of a single person you knew. Rather than general or common consensus.

Morissette Meter once again off the scale!!

M

[300bhp/ton]

Bill said:

2xChevrons said:

Sensible stuff

Exactly.

The Defender has basically gone from air-cooled, wayward handling 911 to PDKed AWD turbo 99whatever model in one hit.

But it hasn't. As the current 911 today is still aimed at exactly the same use and person. The new Defender is not aimed at the same use or even the same people. It is a completely different vehicle and completely different sector.

I'm not debating how good or bad the vehicle actually is. Or even if I personally like it or not. Just looking at it rationally, without bias and completely objectively.

Bill said:

It's all good in my book, and I wish I could afford one.

Me too. As I'm not saying I wouldn't buy one. But my personal like for the vehicle, does not alter the facts behind what it is or isn't.

[300bhp/ton]

Mr.Jimbo said:

That and the fact that to my knowledge those are all aftermarket implements/attachments/mods so a little irrelevant to what Land Rover actually made

Actually they had quite a hand in a lot in past times. You could buy what is known as a Chassis cab, so that it could be modified with a crane or something on the back. Land Rover also had (still has????) a Special Vehicle Operations department. That would aid, assist and build bespoke commercial offerings.

[NomduJour]

Well, this is disgraceful - Land Rover now refuses to sell me a Defender crane/wood chipper/floating snow plough to replace the ones I’ve been buying new for the past sixty years.
What will real men do when they can’t even buy a Defender crane/wood chipper/floating snow plough?
Do Land Rover really think they’ll survive as a business by ignoring the crane/wood chipper/floating snow plough market?
Now I - and all the other real men in my asylum - will* buy Ineos Grenadiers!

* won’t

[2xChevrons]

300bhp/ton said:

Can you back this up? I don't recall anything like this and have not read anything along these lines. I think this was probably your view back then, more than anything else or of a single person you knew. Rather than general or common consensus.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 1st July 11:22

I can only give you anecdotes about this, but while this wasn't the view of the journos/critics and most of the LR customer base - who by and large welcomed the fact that the vehicle was now more comfortable and refined - there were definitely a hard core of LR buyers who were either initially sceptical about the coil-sprung models or outright hostile.

Certainly in my Land Rover club there were a few people who would never countenance driving, let alone owning, a 'Zebedee' - mostly this took the form of good-natured banter but they were, at heart, convinced that a Land Rover with coil springs, permanent 4WD, winding windows, a turbo and power steering wasn't a 'proper' Land Rover because they were too complicated and had concessions to comfort.

That's more akin to 911 fans who see the liquid-cooled models as usurpers or VW Bug enthusiasts who get sniffy about the Super Beetle, but I also knew a couple of local farmers who also spurned the coil-sprung Landys on various grounds. One kept buying Series models to run into the ground, another switched to buying pre-IFS Fourtraks (he didn't like coil-sprung vehicles because if you broke a leaf spring you could drag a welding rig into the field and fix it)...and another went from an old Series to a succession of Disco 1s on the basis that "if it's going to be full of st I don't really need I might as well have something big and comfy".

Are these people representative of the 4x4 buyer market? No. Do they even usefully represent the LR user base? No. But they definitely existed.

LR itself kept Series production going for three years after the introduction of the One Ten, in large part to assuage sceptical fleet buyers.

We can trade anecdotes all day, of course, but yet again you're assuming that your experience encompasses all of reality.

[BRR]

I love the commercial variant, the 3 seats up front and then a big cargo space for bikes etc would be perfect for me, comfortable for every day use and practical for throwing stuff into it without worrying too much about it getting filthy etc. Also helps that IMO it looks really good, especially in the 90 variant

[camel_landy]

300bhp/ton said:

Mr.Jimbo said:

That and the fact that to my knowledge those are all aftermarket implements/attachments/mods so a little irrelevant to what Land Rover actually made

Actually they had quite a hand in a lot in past times. You could buy what is known as a Chassis cab, so that it could be modified with a crane or something on the back. Land Rover also had (still has????) a Special Vehicle Operations department. That would aid, assist and build bespoke commercial offerings.

However, don't forget SVO is still there (as well as their fleet dept) and they will still adapt vehicle(s) for your requirements...

It'll be interesting to see HOW they can adapt the New Defender and what projects roll out. Whilst I'm sure people will argue the toss about what they think (in their opinion) LR will (or will not) be able to provide, LR haven't stated they won't be offering conversions, so we'll just have to wait and see.

M

[Bill]

300bhp/ton said:

Bill said:

The Defender has basically gone from air-cooled, wayward handling 911 to PDKed AWD turbo 99whatever model in one hit.

But it hasn't. As the current 911 today is still aimed at exactly the same use and person. The new Defender is not aimed at the same use or even the same people. It is a completely different vehicle and completely different sector.

It's not aimed at the military and utilities markets because that boat has long sailed. But that's not the whole Defender market. It is a completely different vehicle, one that's better in every way.

300bhp/ton said:

I'm not debating how good or bad the vehicle actually is. Or even if I personally like it or not. Just looking at it rationally, without bias and completely objectively.

Priceless.