RE: 'Hard Top' returns to Land Rover Defender
Discussion
FA57REN said:
595Heaven said:
Seriously though, I can't believe that your opinion is seemingly totally swung by the name. Would you still like the Jimny if it was called something else?
Well I still refuse to consider buying a 500 or Mini because to do so would be to concede to the cynical use of heritage to promote cars that have none of the ethos of their predecessors. At some point one has to draw a line and say "I'm not going to be influenced by marketing psychology"
So yes, the choice of name is important on principle
If JLR had come out with something like a SWB AWD Transit and called it Defender, I'd actually be onboard with that because it instill the values of the predecessor if not the configuration.
Edited by FA57REN on Sunday 5th July 08:03
I asked this on another thread, but received no response - I hear a lot of people are buying these to replace their Discovery - how many people are buying them to replace legacy Defenders?
I just can't get on with the thing's looks, setting aside all preconceptions about the badge or its quality or fitness for purpose. I think that, like most recent LR products, it's ill-conceived and poorly styled... whereas, in the right spec and colour, the Disco 4 looks superb, to my eyes. It's just a purposeful, practical brick, with real presence. The new car doesn't have anything like that brutish aura about it, there's too much gimmickry in the styling and it has too many rounded/curved edges, yet it isn't pretty or elegant in the way that, say, the Porsche Macan is (in the right spec). It falls uneasily between the two stools of utilitarian and fashion design, where the Disco managed to capture a kind of industrial chic brilliantly, and, in its own way, so has the Grenadier, through combining Defender and G-Wagen design cues with a contemptuous disregard for trendiness, which frankly makes the latest Landy look bland and generic. Dare I say, there's too much whiff of the Beckhams about it. Things have never been the same at LR since they allowed Gerry McGovern to meet Posh Spice...
RoverP6B said:
I just can't get on with the thing's looks, setting aside all preconceptions about the badge or its quality or fitness for purpose. I think that, like most recent LR products, it's ill-conceived and poorly styled... whereas, in the right spec and colour, the Disco 4 looks superb, to my eyes. It's just a purposeful, practical brick, with real presence. The new car doesn't have anything like that brutish aura about it, there's too much gimmickry in the styling and it has too many rounded/curved edges, yet it isn't pretty or elegant in the way that, say, the Porsche Macan is (in the right spec). It falls uneasily between the two stools of utilitarian and fashion design, where the Disco managed to capture a kind of industrial chic brilliantly, and, in its own way, so has the Grenadier, through combining Defender and G-Wagen design cues with a contemptuous disregard for trendiness, which frankly makes the latest Landy look bland and generic. Dare I say, there's too much whiff of the Beckhams about it. Things have never been the same at LR since they allowed Gerry McGovern to meet Posh Spice...
Its the grenadier thats going for the trendy look, not the Defender. The name is such a non-issue. It was designed from the ground up to be a new Defender, and it is, or at least the modern interpretation. With it's heavy off road ethos, styling and marketing.
The Defender name is relatively new anyway, it's hardly iconic, when the car evolved from simply 'Land Rover'. LR have only ever had 3 'new' model names (discounting the line of Range Rover offshoots) if the 2 original names are Land Rover and Range Rover, we've only had Discovery, Defender (which was name change) and Freelander.
Of all the things to be annoyed about - I mean it's not even built in the UK for one! Although, if it proves to be reliable, that might be a good thing.
Youd think the above would draw a line under that, but I think it may be beyond the comprehension of certain posters.
The Defender name is relatively new anyway, it's hardly iconic, when the car evolved from simply 'Land Rover'. LR have only ever had 3 'new' model names (discounting the line of Range Rover offshoots) if the 2 original names are Land Rover and Range Rover, we've only had Discovery, Defender (which was name change) and Freelander.
Of all the things to be annoyed about - I mean it's not even built in the UK for one! Although, if it proves to be reliable, that might be a good thing.
Youd think the above would draw a line under that, but I think it may be beyond the comprehension of certain posters.
LimaDelta said:
The endless discussion would suggest otherwise.
Nope it's still a non-issue. Just because some people are making noise about it, it doesn't change anything. One of the people making said noise hasn't owned any Land Rover for 40 years and has no experience off roading. Majority of people making noise are a nonentity. AngryPartsBloke said:
LimaDelta said:
The endless discussion would suggest otherwise.
Nope it's still a non-issue. Just because some people are making noise about it, it doesn't change anything. One of the people making said noise hasn't owned any Land Rover for 40 years and has no experience off roading. Majority of people making noise are a nonentity. DoubleD said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
LimaDelta said:
The endless discussion would suggest otherwise.
Nope it's still a non-issue. Just because some people are making noise about it, it doesn't change anything. One of the people making said noise hasn't owned any Land Rover for 40 years and has no experience off roading. Majority of people making noise are a nonentity. LimaDelta said:
DoubleD said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
LimaDelta said:
The endless discussion would suggest otherwise.
Nope it's still a non-issue. Just because some people are making noise about it, it doesn't change anything. One of the people making said noise hasn't owned any Land Rover for 40 years and has no experience off roading. Majority of people making noise are a nonentity. 
DoubleD said:
LimaDelta said:
DoubleD said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
LimaDelta said:
The endless discussion would suggest otherwise.
Nope it's still a non-issue. Just because some people are making noise about it, it doesn't change anything. One of the people making said noise hasn't owned any Land Rover for 40 years and has no experience off roading. Majority of people making noise are a nonentity. LimaDelta said:
DoubleD said:
LimaDelta said:
DoubleD said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
LimaDelta said:
The endless discussion would suggest otherwise.
Nope it's still a non-issue. Just because some people are making noise about it, it doesn't change anything. One of the people making said noise hasn't owned any Land Rover for 40 years and has no experience off roading. Majority of people making noise are a nonentity. DoubleD said:
LimaDelta said:
DoubleD said:
LimaDelta said:
DoubleD said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
LimaDelta said:
The endless discussion would suggest otherwise.
Nope it's still a non-issue. Just because some people are making noise about it, it doesn't change anything. One of the people making said noise hasn't owned any Land Rover for 40 years and has no experience off roading. Majority of people making noise are a nonentity. But we are getting way off topic now.
LimaDelta said:
DoubleD said:
LimaDelta said:
DoubleD said:
LimaDelta said:
DoubleD said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
LimaDelta said:
The endless discussion would suggest otherwise.
Nope it's still a non-issue. Just because some people are making noise about it, it doesn't change anything. One of the people making said noise hasn't owned any Land Rover for 40 years and has no experience off roading. Majority of people making noise are a nonentity. But we are getting way off topic now.
Argleton said:
The name is such a non-issue. It was designed from the ground up to be a new Defender, and it is, or at least the modern interpretation. With it's heavy off road ethos, styling and marketing.
The Defender name is relatively new anyway, it's hardly iconic, when the car evolved from simply 'Land Rover'. LR have only ever had 3 'new' model names (discounting the line of Range Rover offshoots) if the 2 original names are Land Rover and Range Rover, we've only had Discovery, Defender (which was name change) and Freelander.
Of all the things to be annoyed about - I mean it's not even built in the UK for one! Although, if it proves to be reliable, that might be a good thing.
Youd think the above would draw a line under that, but I think it may be beyond the comprehension of certain posters.
Half the old codgers freaking out at this car being called Defender were also appalled when the Land Rover was ruined and decades of heritage destroyed when it was renamed Defender a few years back. Let’s face reality, codgers just bThe Defender name is relatively new anyway, it's hardly iconic, when the car evolved from simply 'Land Rover'. LR have only ever had 3 'new' model names (discounting the line of Range Rover offshoots) if the 2 original names are Land Rover and Range Rover, we've only had Discovery, Defender (which was name change) and Freelander.
Of all the things to be annoyed about - I mean it's not even built in the UK for one! Although, if it proves to be reliable, that might be a good thing.
Youd think the above would draw a line under that, but I think it may be beyond the comprehension of certain posters.
h about everything that dares to change or evolve. It’s just their nature. They are the ones holding everyone up everywhere you go with their endless complaining about anything that is different that week. They are a complete pain in the arse, blighting ever corner of the country with their witless gobsting. DonkeyApple said:
Half the old codgers freaking out at this car being called Defender were also appalled when the Land Rover was ruined and decades of heritage destroyed when it was renamed Defender a few years back. Let’s face reality, codgers just bh about everything that dares to change or evolve. It’s just their nature. They are the ones holding everyone up everywhere you go with their endless complaining about anything that is different that week. They are a complete pain in the arse, blighting ever corner of the country with their witless gobsting.
C'mon, tell us what you really think? h about everything that dares to change or evolve. It’s just their nature. They are the ones holding everyone up everywhere you go with their endless complaining about anything that is different that week. They are a complete pain in the arse, blighting ever corner of the country with their witless gobsting. 
Ok, let's put it this way. Imagine if Porsche's new 911 was front engined. Every generation of 911 had been compromised by that lump of weight hanging behind the rear axle. It is wrong, but it's what makes a 911 a 911. The front engined one would be faster, and better handling, safer and improved in everyway, just the engine was now in the correct place - how do you think their 'fanbase' would react? Would it be accepted as a 'real' 911?
The fact that this car has been named Defender has no influence on whether I am likely or not to buy one. I would have preferred if they'd called it the Disco 5 (and just pretended that the wonky-plated blob never existed) as i feel that it is exactly filling the void that the Disco 4 left - a car for people like me, active, reasonably affluent middle class families. Not world adventurers or the UN or farmers who have to hose sheep out of the back of it (or something). I don't give a toss what axles are under it, but I will care if one of the 100 little-black-boxes-of-magic pack up and leave me and my family stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Perhaps it is just there are few cars as iconic as the Defender/Series shape LRs. The new one has big boots to fill. Maybe eventually it will be as warmly regarded as the legacy Defender but it has a long way to go yet (and with the inbuilt obsolesence of modern cars I doubt it will ever be).
Anyway, this has already been discussed ad nauseum, to bring it back on topic I am glad they have done a HT/commercial version. When they announce a BEV pickup version I may consider swapping the Hilux for one (unless the Cybertruck is here before then). Getting bikes in and out of the HT Defender looks like it will still be a wheels-off affair.
LimaDelta said:
C'mon, tell us what you really think?
Ok, let's put it this way. Imagine if Porsche's new 911 was front engined. Every generation of 911 had been compromised by that lump of weight hanging behind the rear axle. It is wrong, but it's what makes a 911 a 911. The front engined one would be faster, and better handling, safer and improved in everyway, just the engine was now in the correct place - how do you think their 'fanbase' would react? Would it be accepted as a 'real' 911?
The fact that this car has been named Defender has no influence on whether I am likely or not to buy one. I would have preferred if they'd called it the Disco 5 (and just pretended that the wonky-plated blob never existed) as i feel that it is exactly filling the void that the Disco 4 left - a car for people like me, active, reasonably affluent middle class families. Not world adventurers or the UN or farmers who have to hose sheep out of the back of it (or something). I don't give a toss what axles are under it, but I will care if one of the 100 little-black-boxes-of-magic pack up and leave me and my family stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Perhaps it is just there are few cars as iconic as the Defender/Series shape LRs. The new one has big boots to fill. Maybe eventually it will be as warmly regarded as the legacy Defender but it has a long way to go yet (and with the inbuilt obsolesence of modern cars I doubt it will ever be).
Anyway, this has already been discussed ad nauseum, to bring it back on topic I am glad they have done a HT/commercial version. When they announce a BEV pickup version I may consider swapping the Hilux for one (unless the Cybertruck is here before then). Getting bikes in and out of the HT Defender looks like it will still be a wheels-off affair.
I'm not sure I get your Porsche 911 point. How is moving the drivetrain of it comparable to this new Defender? Is the engine in the boot?Ok, let's put it this way. Imagine if Porsche's new 911 was front engined. Every generation of 911 had been compromised by that lump of weight hanging behind the rear axle. It is wrong, but it's what makes a 911 a 911. The front engined one would be faster, and better handling, safer and improved in everyway, just the engine was now in the correct place - how do you think their 'fanbase' would react? Would it be accepted as a 'real' 911?
The fact that this car has been named Defender has no influence on whether I am likely or not to buy one. I would have preferred if they'd called it the Disco 5 (and just pretended that the wonky-plated blob never existed) as i feel that it is exactly filling the void that the Disco 4 left - a car for people like me, active, reasonably affluent middle class families. Not world adventurers or the UN or farmers who have to hose sheep out of the back of it (or something). I don't give a toss what axles are under it, but I will care if one of the 100 little-black-boxes-of-magic pack up and leave me and my family stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Perhaps it is just there are few cars as iconic as the Defender/Series shape LRs. The new one has big boots to fill. Maybe eventually it will be as warmly regarded as the legacy Defender but it has a long way to go yet (and with the inbuilt obsolesence of modern cars I doubt it will ever be).
Anyway, this has already been discussed ad nauseum, to bring it back on topic I am glad they have done a HT/commercial version. When they announce a BEV pickup version I may consider swapping the Hilux for one (unless the Cybertruck is here before then). Getting bikes in and out of the HT Defender looks like it will still be a wheels-off affair.
And anyway they did make a front engined 911 it's called the 928 and it didn't work out - good enough though it was - the reason they didn't call it a 911 is because they sold it side by side with it. To answer your (very odd, and in no way comparable question) no, a front engined 911 wouldn't be well received, but then they're not going to make one anyway...
You would prefer for this to be called the Discovery 5? Why do you place the Defender name higher than the Discovery? Both nameplates were pretty much launched at the same time. I understand the Defender is iconic, but so is the Discovery. LR have consistently pushed upmarket so it was only natural that the Disco 5 went beyond the utilitarian Disco 4 which left this obvious gap to launch the Defender.
LimaDelta said:
C'mon, tell us what you really think?
Ok, let's put it this way. Imagine if Porsche's new 911 was front engined. Every generation of 911 had been compromised by that lump of weight hanging behind the rear axle. It is wrong, but it's what makes a 911 a 911. The front engined one would be faster, and better handling, safer and improved in everyway, just the engine was now in the correct place - how do you think their 'fanbase' would react? Would it be accepted as a 'real' 911?
The fact that this car has been named Defender has no influence on whether I am likely or not to buy one. I would have preferred if they'd called it the Disco 5 (and just pretended that the wonky-plated blob never existed) as i feel that it is exactly filling the void that the Disco 4 left - a car for people like me, active, reasonably affluent middle class families. Not world adventurers or the UN or farmers who have to hose sheep out of the back of it (or something). I don't give a toss what axles are under it, but I will care if one of the 100 little-black-boxes-of-magic pack up and leave me and my family stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Perhaps it is just there are few cars as iconic as the Defender/Series shape LRs. The new one has big boots to fill. Maybe eventually it will be as warmly regarded as the legacy Defender but it has a long way to go yet (and with the inbuilt obsolesence of modern cars I doubt it will ever be).
Anyway, this has already been discussed ad nauseum, to bring it back on topic I am glad they have done a HT/commercial version. When they announce a BEV pickup version I may consider swapping the Hilux for one (unless the Cybertruck is here before then). Getting bikes in and out of the HT Defender looks like it will still be a wheels-off affair.
The thing is that the Land Rover that we all love in many ways died as a utilitarian vehicle when they renamed it the Defender. The whole history of the Defender name has been about trying to move forward, go upmarket, cater less and less for the pure utility market and more and more for the affluent end of the market. All they’ve done with the new car is achieve that. Finally. They aren’t calling this car the Land Rover and aiming it at the original customers of the Land Rover. They’ve called it the Defender. Ok, let's put it this way. Imagine if Porsche's new 911 was front engined. Every generation of 911 had been compromised by that lump of weight hanging behind the rear axle. It is wrong, but it's what makes a 911 a 911. The front engined one would be faster, and better handling, safer and improved in everyway, just the engine was now in the correct place - how do you think their 'fanbase' would react? Would it be accepted as a 'real' 911?
The fact that this car has been named Defender has no influence on whether I am likely or not to buy one. I would have preferred if they'd called it the Disco 5 (and just pretended that the wonky-plated blob never existed) as i feel that it is exactly filling the void that the Disco 4 left - a car for people like me, active, reasonably affluent middle class families. Not world adventurers or the UN or farmers who have to hose sheep out of the back of it (or something). I don't give a toss what axles are under it, but I will care if one of the 100 little-black-boxes-of-magic pack up and leave me and my family stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Perhaps it is just there are few cars as iconic as the Defender/Series shape LRs. The new one has big boots to fill. Maybe eventually it will be as warmly regarded as the legacy Defender but it has a long way to go yet (and with the inbuilt obsolesence of modern cars I doubt it will ever be).
Anyway, this has already been discussed ad nauseum, to bring it back on topic I am glad they have done a HT/commercial version. When they announce a BEV pickup version I may consider swapping the Hilux for one (unless the Cybertruck is here before then). Getting bikes in and out of the HT Defender looks like it will still be a wheels-off affair.
I suspect it will gut Disco sales in many regions and I suspect we all look at it and know it’s more of a Disco than a Land Rover but an awful lot of people are not understanding why the Land Rover was rebranded as Defender and what the purpose of that new name and all the mod cons they added was all about. There is a huge amount of shouting at pigeons going on by people who just don’t want to accept that the world moves forward. And of course, there are a lot of Ian Bone fans frothing just because they dislike a certain group of their society.
Don’t forget that the Corvette has just gone mid engined but for some of the bigots this remains ok because it’s still a blue collar car. For those people that’s what’s they are really upset about. Probably the same tools that are frothing over in NPE about whatever it is that they froth about that week.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Sunday 5th July 22:40
LimaDelta said:
Ok, let's put it this way. Imagine if Porsche's new 911 was front engined. Every generation of 911 had been compromised by that lump of weight hanging behind the rear axle. It is wrong, but it's what makes a 911 a 911. The front engined one would be faster, and better handling, safer and improved in everyway, just the engine was now in the correct place - how do you think their 'fanbase' would react? Would it be accepted as a 'real' 911?
It's down to how YOU interpret it.In reality, each of the 911s DO have a different model number... 996, 997, 991.1, etc... But everyone refers to that basic shape as the 911. The fact the latest RSR even has the engine (heaven forbid) in FRONT of the rear axle, still doesn't stop it being referred to as a 911.
It's exactly the same as, for example, the Range Rover... P38... L322... L405... Etc...
The New Defender is the L663. Tough s
t... It's Land Rover's baby. Get over yourself....and this thread is about the Hard Top, start a new thread if you want to talk about anything else.
M
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