RE: 'Hard Top' returns to Land Rover Defender
Discussion
bnseven said:
That was a question I asked at my dealers and seems apparently not making one, which was disappointing....
My D4 due for replacement so I ordered one with windows anyway, despite the obvious shortcomings in airdrop durability....
My D4 due for replacement so I ordered one with windows anyway, despite the obvious shortcomings in airdrop durability....
At some point some poor salesman is now going to get the question never mind what alloys does it come with does it airdrop from 15 feet or 30 and is that half loaded full loaded . . . Does the black with silver alloys air drop better then the red with steel wheels.
Come to think about it I should have asked that when looking for my last Saab after all it “came from jets”
Edited by travisc on Wednesday 8th July 14:57
I consider it pretty likely that the Ur-Disco had some form of help... those don't look like Commonwealth bogies (no yellow Timken roller bearing covers), the railhead conditions are not ideal, too much friction to get the carriages rolling smoothly, tyres on the railhead again...
Remember the famous ad with the Series/Defender scaling the dam? That was faked too, there was a bloody great glider winch (funnily enough) on top of the dam, hauling the (IIRC engineless?) LR up the sheer rock face.
Remember Clarkson moving the Dunsfold 747 with the VW Touareg V10? That thing had a lot of torque, multiple tons of sandbags as ballast for stability, moving a stripped-out engineless carcass of a Jumbo, and even with the advantage of full traction on a very grippy old concrete surface, enabling the use of full engine torque without wheelspin, it took forever just to get moving at all. Now, try doing the same thing (weight reduced in proportion to torque) on a slippery, rusty railhead, with knackered old plain bearings putting up a fight...
So yes, these ads were and are fake... and now we've got Nude Offenders jumping like Baja trophy trucks in a trailer for the latest Bond film. Absolute b
ks.
Remember the famous ad with the Series/Defender scaling the dam? That was faked too, there was a bloody great glider winch (funnily enough) on top of the dam, hauling the (IIRC engineless?) LR up the sheer rock face.
Remember Clarkson moving the Dunsfold 747 with the VW Touareg V10? That thing had a lot of torque, multiple tons of sandbags as ballast for stability, moving a stripped-out engineless carcass of a Jumbo, and even with the advantage of full traction on a very grippy old concrete surface, enabling the use of full engine torque without wheelspin, it took forever just to get moving at all. Now, try doing the same thing (weight reduced in proportion to torque) on a slippery, rusty railhead, with knackered old plain bearings putting up a fight...
So yes, these ads were and are fake... and now we've got Nude Offenders jumping like Baja trophy trucks in a trailer for the latest Bond film. Absolute b
ks.2xChevrons said:
Personally I don't see all that much difference between the MIni/MINI and the old/new Defenders in terms of their changed purpose and image.
You're right that the MINI was explicitly sold as a fashionable, premium small car. The same pretty much went for the old Mini in the 1990s (from 1992 it wasn't possible to buy a basic 998cc Mini. They were all 1275s in either Cooper or various luxury/special edition flavours). The MINI leant - and still leans - really heavily on the heritage, 'brand DNA' and cute factor of the original. That's why it can be sold as a premium product rather than just another competent FWD hatch.
The Defender follows almost exactly the same life cycle - utilitarian product, beloved by many, gains cultural status far beyond its original purpose, stays in production for too long while losing virtually all its original market to superior competition, gets re-vamped as a fashion accessory selling on its own uniqueness and heritage rather than objective reasons, then gets comprehensively updated by an entirely new modern interpretation which half the fan-base of the original loathe. Let's see if the Defender can complete the set by, like the MINI, selling far better than the original and bringing swathes of new customers to the marque that the old one would never have attracted.
I'm really not convinced by the bit that I've bolded. Leaving aside the tedious name-calling, I haven't seen any current Defender advertising that even tries to show it as an agricultural, industrial or commercial utility vehicle. I haven't seen any depicted towing livestock trailers, carrying engineers to remote power lines, launching fishing boats, ferrying aid workers to African deserts, helping an Australian cattle rancher build a new fence or any of the other stuff that you might expect if it was being sold as a "utilitarian and an off-road hero". The launch advert showed a Defender carrying someone home (across rugged terrain) from a rock-climbing adventure. Most of the publicity pics seem to show it being driven by prosperous-looking middle-class families going camping, kayaking. mountain biking or caravaning. Yes, the adverts still push the car's off-road capabilities but then it is undeniably a very capable off-road vehicle - just in a different way to the old generation.
In the same way that the MINI was a completely different take on the 'small fun-to-drive family car' than the 1959 version.
The thing is that the one thing the original Mini was good at had long since been surpassed by other rivals... milking brand loyalty as a cash cow was all Rover could do while developing the R53. The Defender, however, for its size and price, was stronger and more capable (if not more reliable) than anything else at or around its price point. As such, it always sold well as a work/farm truck. It wasn't just an anti-style fashion statement. Now JLR are marketing the new thing with this hardtop, stuntmen jumping it etc, posed photos of it struggling to swallow a Europallet, etc... clearly trying to pretend it can be a work truck.You're right that the MINI was explicitly sold as a fashionable, premium small car. The same pretty much went for the old Mini in the 1990s (from 1992 it wasn't possible to buy a basic 998cc Mini. They were all 1275s in either Cooper or various luxury/special edition flavours). The MINI leant - and still leans - really heavily on the heritage, 'brand DNA' and cute factor of the original. That's why it can be sold as a premium product rather than just another competent FWD hatch.
The Defender follows almost exactly the same life cycle - utilitarian product, beloved by many, gains cultural status far beyond its original purpose, stays in production for too long while losing virtually all its original market to superior competition, gets re-vamped as a fashion accessory selling on its own uniqueness and heritage rather than objective reasons, then gets comprehensively updated by an entirely new modern interpretation which half the fan-base of the original loathe. Let's see if the Defender can complete the set by, like the MINI, selling far better than the original and bringing swathes of new customers to the marque that the old one would never have attracted.
I'm really not convinced by the bit that I've bolded. Leaving aside the tedious name-calling, I haven't seen any current Defender advertising that even tries to show it as an agricultural, industrial or commercial utility vehicle. I haven't seen any depicted towing livestock trailers, carrying engineers to remote power lines, launching fishing boats, ferrying aid workers to African deserts, helping an Australian cattle rancher build a new fence or any of the other stuff that you might expect if it was being sold as a "utilitarian and an off-road hero". The launch advert showed a Defender carrying someone home (across rugged terrain) from a rock-climbing adventure. Most of the publicity pics seem to show it being driven by prosperous-looking middle-class families going camping, kayaking. mountain biking or caravaning. Yes, the adverts still push the car's off-road capabilities but then it is undeniably a very capable off-road vehicle - just in a different way to the old generation.
In the same way that the MINI was a completely different take on the 'small fun-to-drive family car' than the 1959 version.
NomduJour said:
Stop digging, it’s embarrassing.
I'm not the one digging. Blatantly dishonest ad men and their apologists are. Land Rovers can't jump, not unless very highly modified. Land Rovers can't haul trains without something else helping to get them moving. Land Rovers can't climb dams unassisted either, even if Richard Hammond got part way up one.RoverP6B said:
I'm not the one digging. Blatantly dishonest ad men and their apologists are. Land Rovers can't jump, not unless very highly modified. Land Rovers can't haul trains without something else helping to get them moving. Land Rovers can't climb dams unassisted either, even if Richard Hammond got part way up one.
Whatever, now go away...M
RoverP6B said:
NomduJour said:
Stop digging, it’s embarrassing.
I'm not the one digging. Blatantly dishonest ad men and their apologists are. Land Rovers can't jump, not unless very highly modified. Land Rovers can't haul trains without something else helping to get them moving. Land Rovers can't climb dams unassisted either, even if Richard Hammond got part way up one.Did you watch the video i posted from Engineering Explained on you tube that covers "pulling heavy things with cars"?
If you had (rather than again assume you know everything) then you'd know why it's harder to pull a 747 than a train!
(hint, aeroplanes have rubber tyres)
By ignoring facts, all you do is make everyone reading this thread think you are a trolling idiot. Like most people, you probably have some good idea's, some interesting view points, some valid and factually true and intereting input to these threads. BUT, nobody will give you the time of day because you come across so badly, you are digging your own grave every time you reply i'm sorry to say.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 8th July 15:14
The aircraft having rubber tyres does of course increase rolling resistance. I know that. The surface giving the driver full traction offsets it. You cannot use peak torque on a railhead, even a rusty one. The 747 also does not have 80-year-old plain bearings with several million miles on them like those railway carriages do.
RoverP6B said:
posed photos of it struggling to swallow a Europallet, etc... clearly trying to pretend it can be a work truck.
Jesus man, give it a rest. The door opening (including the open door) is wider than a Euro pallet so 'struggling to swallow a Euro pallet' is absolute rubbish...again. It can be a work truck, like my 2 Disco 4 commercials were.And as for posed photos, what do you think all photos are when it comes to marketing? Real world, raw photos? Dear lord man, please just stop typing.
RoverP6B said:
The aircraft having rubber tyres does of course increase rolling resistance. I know that. The surface giving the driver full traction offsets it. You cannot use peak torque on a railhead, even a rusty one. The 747 also does not have 80-year-old plain bearings with several million miles on them like those railway carriages do.
right thats it. I've not called you names, i've explained in detail where you are mistaken, i've linked you to videos showing cars pulling train, and yet you keep making up st why you can't be wrong. The boy who called wolf gets his comupence eventually.well enoughs enough, sod off you troll, i'm out. Sorry to the rest of PH who might have learnt something, and might have been interested to learn about these interesting vehicles, but i just can't be bothered any more.
Max_Torque said:
right thats it. I've not called you names, i've explained in detail where you are mistaken, i've linked you to videos showing cars pulling train, and yet you keep making up st why you can't be wrong. The boy who called wolf gets his comupence eventually.
well enoughs enough, sod off you troll, i'm out. Sorry to the rest of PH who might have learnt something, and might have been interested to learn about these interesting vehicles, but i just can't be bothered any more.
I'd really rather you didn't leave. We can get this thread back on track with some facts.t why you can't be wrong. The boy who called wolf gets his comupence eventually.well enoughs enough, sod off you troll, i'm out. Sorry to the rest of PH who might have learnt something, and might have been interested to learn about these interesting vehicles, but i just can't be bothered any more.
The Land Rover videos are fake. Always have been. With that kind of setup, you're looking at 300kg on each rubber tyre - not nearly enough to provide sufficient traction to put down full torque. Now, if the car can drive along the ballast, it can put the torque down - but any railhead condition which provides more friction for the tyres also provides more friction for the train wheels. Add in decades-old plain bearings on carriages which clearly hadn't moved in years, given the rust on the railheads...
RoverP6B said:
The Land Rover videos are fake. Always have been. With that kind of setup, you're looking at 300kg on each rubber tyre - not nearly enough to provide sufficient traction to put down full torque. Now, if the car can drive along the ballast, it can put the torque down - but any railhead condition which provides more friction for the tyres also provides more friction for the train wheels. Add in decades-old plain bearings on carriages which clearly hadn't moved in years, given the rust on the railheads...
M
RoverP6B said:
I consider it pretty likely that the Ur-Disco had some form of help... those don't look like Commonwealth bogies (no yellow Timken roller bearing covers), the railhead conditions are not ideal, too much friction to get the carriages rolling smoothly, tyres on the railhead again...
Remember the famous ad with the Series/Defender scaling the dam? That was faked too, there was a bloody great glider winch (funnily enough) on top of the dam, hauling the (IIRC engineless?) LR up the sheer rock face.
Remember Clarkson moving the Dunsfold 747 with the VW Touareg V10? That thing had a lot of torque, multiple tons of sandbags as ballast for stability, moving a stripped-out engineless carcass of a Jumbo, and even with the advantage of full traction on a very grippy old concrete surface, enabling the use of full engine torque without wheelspin, it took forever just to get moving at all. Now, try doing the same thing (weight reduced in proportion to torque) on a slippery, rusty railhead, with knackered old plain bearings putting up a fight...
So yes, these ads were and are fake... and now we've got Nude Offenders jumping like Baja trophy trucks in a trailer for the latest Bond film. Absolute bks.
Do you do children’s parties?Remember the famous ad with the Series/Defender scaling the dam? That was faked too, there was a bloody great glider winch (funnily enough) on top of the dam, hauling the (IIRC engineless?) LR up the sheer rock face.
Remember Clarkson moving the Dunsfold 747 with the VW Touareg V10? That thing had a lot of torque, multiple tons of sandbags as ballast for stability, moving a stripped-out engineless carcass of a Jumbo, and even with the advantage of full traction on a very grippy old concrete surface, enabling the use of full engine torque without wheelspin, it took forever just to get moving at all. Now, try doing the same thing (weight reduced in proportion to torque) on a slippery, rusty railhead, with knackered old plain bearings putting up a fight...
So yes, these ads were and are fake... and now we've got Nude Offenders jumping like Baja trophy trucks in a trailer for the latest Bond film. Absolute b
ks.bnseven said:
That was a question I asked at my dealers and seems apparently not making one, which was disappointing....
My D4 due for replacement so I ordered one with windows anyway, despite the obvious shortcomings in airdrop durability....
I think you should be able to airdrop. Blackberry users will need to buy the Landwind Pomegranite Tributo and just throw ring binders or 8 tracks at it. My D4 due for replacement so I ordered one with windows anyway, despite the obvious shortcomings in airdrop durability....
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