RE: INEOS Grenadier officially unveiled
Discussion
citizensm1th said:
If only somehow we as a nation could make dinosaurs popular around the world it would be like the old days of empire. We could make an absolute killing exporting the ones we have here.
Just think how quiet this part of PistonHeads would be, if they all went... oh “perchance to dream”Not sure why there is all the debate about Brexit. At £40k+ for a lifestyle toy that’s mostly built of foreign stuff by a tax exile and now might even be built overseas, it couldn’t be more a Remainer product if anyone tried. It’ll probably sell much more as a result and in a decade filter down to the more destructive leisure market.
RoverP6B said:
AngryPartsBloke said:
soxboy said:
Article on Autocar website:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/confir...
I can't see a way forward for Wales on this one.
P6 will be pleased.https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/confir...
I can't see a way forward for Wales on this one.
Sway said:
It would be particularly daft, and potentially massively irresponsible to the staff concerned, to build an entirely new plant when the whole industry has realised there is massive overcapacity and there's one now available (likely for an utter song) that's perfect for their needs other than it's not based in the UK...
In contrast, existing British factories are doing pretty well out of hoovering up lines coming from closed overseas plants.
If you were only going to buy it due to it's perceived nationality, then you'd likely not have bought it once you saw the badges on the wings. Surely if it's overall the right vehicle for you the longer term prospects of the company are important?
Or would you genuinely like them to waste millions when they've (literally in the last week or two) found out about a new option that could save them a fortune?
Note, none of the above has any influence relating to brexit.
I cannot disagree with a word of the above.In contrast, existing British factories are doing pretty well out of hoovering up lines coming from closed overseas plants.
If you were only going to buy it due to it's perceived nationality, then you'd likely not have bought it once you saw the badges on the wings. Surely if it's overall the right vehicle for you the longer term prospects of the company are important?
Or would you genuinely like them to waste millions when they've (literally in the last week or two) found out about a new option that could save them a fortune?
Note, none of the above has any influence relating to brexit.
Sway said:
Do explain?
If you're referring to Land Rover, why would they build a new factory, instead of contract manufacturing that they're doing with much less risky or capital intensive startup?
For fear of further complicating this thread... If you're referring to Land Rover, why would they build a new factory, instead of contract manufacturing that they're doing with much less risky or capital intensive startup?
Land Rover HAVE built a new factory... In Slovakia. (Well, I say new, it has been open 18mths). It's where the Disco 5 & Defender are being built.
Granted, the decision to build was probably made before Brexit and both the Ford (Bridgend) & Honda (Swindon) announcements but even so, there are plenty of potential sites they could have used in the UK.
M
I suspect that there are, indeed other sites in the U.K. where you already have a potential workforce. As mentioned, Honda in Swindon would be an obvious one, albeit I don’t think it’s shut up shop yet. Ford could be another source and - something that would never happen - I dare say JLR has excess production capacity wherever they make Jaguars these days..
Within reason, I’m not exercised by where products are physically made other than there needs to be a degree of authenticity to it. It’s nothing to do with Brexity chat to think that - all automotive companies play on their nationality as do other - mainly luxury - brands. I’ve bought German cars made in Finland, British cars made in Slovakia and Italian cars made in Poland. I dare say there are others that I’ve forgotten.
To me though - and I could be wrong - the Grenadier has very much been positioned as a British, or at least mainly British product. It’s certainly styled and marketed that way. The reality of the international automotive world means, of course, that in reality any product is the sum of various parts of differing nationality.
But.... it is nonetheless about authenticity and this is starting to sound like a real mongrel.
Within reason, I’m not exercised by where products are physically made other than there needs to be a degree of authenticity to it. It’s nothing to do with Brexity chat to think that - all automotive companies play on their nationality as do other - mainly luxury - brands. I’ve bought German cars made in Finland, British cars made in Slovakia and Italian cars made in Poland. I dare say there are others that I’ve forgotten.
To me though - and I could be wrong - the Grenadier has very much been positioned as a British, or at least mainly British product. It’s certainly styled and marketed that way. The reality of the international automotive world means, of course, that in reality any product is the sum of various parts of differing nationality.
But.... it is nonetheless about authenticity and this is starting to sound like a real mongrel.
AngryPartsBloke said:
So it's okay for Captain Brexit to have his entire operation in Europe but you take issue with JLR using one factory in Slovakia?
It's not quite the same thing. Ineos is a multinational corporation entering the automotive sector for the first time with a new product which we always knew was going to be made of components almost entirely sourced and manufactured outside the UK. Land Rover is an iconic British brand that manufactured solely in the UK for seven decades (rather more than that if you count Rover, which was already 65 years old when the Series One went on sale). Its marketing of the Defender plays heavily on the heritage of the original - right down to that "Wilks Bros" signage on the SWB "hard top". What is more, JLR already has production capacity in the UK, some of which (in the form of its admittedly still-Ford-owned engine plant at Bridgend) is being closed - it isn't that it can't build the thing (or the Disco) in the UK, as it had temporarily closed its factories even before Covid19, and Castle Bromwich remains closed for at least another month - it's simply that it is cheaper to build them overseas and they can make nice fat profit margins on cheap Slovakian product.RoverP6B said:
It's not quite the same thing. Ineos is a multinational corporation entering the automotive sector for the first time with a new product which we always knew was going to be made of components almost entirely sourced and manufactured outside the UK. Land Rover is an iconic British brand that manufactured solely in the UK for seven decades (rather more than that if you count Rover, which was already 65 years old when the Series One went on sale). Its marketing of the Defender plays heavily on the heritage of the original - right down to that "Wilks Bros" signage on the SWB "hard top". What is more, JLR already has production capacity in the UK, some of which (in the form of its admittedly still-Ford-owned engine plant at Bridgend) is being closed - it isn't that it can't build the thing (or the Disco) in the UK, as it had temporarily closed its factories even before Covid19, and Castle Bromwich remains closed for at least another month - it's simply that it is cheaper to build them overseas and they can make nice fat profit margins on cheap Slovakian product.
Apart from the overseas operations that manufactured Land Rovers and/or Range Rovers (as of 1976):Spain
Portugal
Morocco
Sudan
Ethiopia
Ghana
Nigeria
Zaire
Kenya
Tanzania
Zambia
Malawi
Mozambique
South Africa
Iran
Pakistan
Thailand
Malaysia
Indonesia
The Philippines
Australia
New Zealand
Costa Rica
Venezuela
Ecuador
Trinidad
As for the the 'cheapness' of manufacturing the present-day Defender in Slovakia, I'm sure it's both lower-cost and more cost-effective to build in Slovakia rather than Solihull, but there's precious little evidence that the result is an inferior product. Quite a lot of evidence so far to the contrary, it seems.
The abovementioned sites were only body assembly plants. Manufacturing was still here in the UK - completed chassis left Solihull with merely needing the bodies to be bolted together from flat-packed panels and the interiors installed. The sole exceptions were Minerva in Belgium and Santana in Spain, who made the things under license, and, crucially, applied their own branding to their vehicles - they were never called Land Rovers. Similarly, more recently, French-assembled G-wagens wore Peugeot badging even though they were partly built by Mercedes-Benz, with Peugeot merely supplying and installing the engines and gearboxes, welding the body together and putting in the interior and electrics. It wasn't a case of using a cheap foreign factory, slapping three-pointed stars on them and exporting them to Germany... which is what JLR is doing with its Slovakian imports.
In response to the tangential comment about my 760Li, it's the old naturally-aspirated N73-powered E66, not the turbo N74 powered F02, so more closely related to the Phantom 7, and somehow I can't imagine even the Ghost handling like a big E39 on a twisty Devon B-road in the way the E66 does. The ride is rather firmer than I'd expect in a Rolls-Royce, which suits me fine. Plus I personally can't stand the looks of the modern Rolls-Royces. Roy Axe got it right with the Seraph/Arnage. The E66 is no beauty, but at least it's not conspicuously vulgar. It's anonymous and doesn't attract the wrong sort of attention like a Rolls-Royce does. Most people don't even notice the bootlid identifier or the little V12 badges on the wings. Plus it's hardly any bigger than a G30 5-series, which helps it blend in. Getting back on topic, what unites it and the Grenadier is their shared absolute faithfulness to themselves and fitness for purpose. Neither is a cheap knock-off of something more prestigious. The Grenadier is demonstrably the truer successor to the Series/Defender in terms of who will buy it and what it does. The Nude Offender is just JLR's seventh independently suspended monocoque SUV. It is not a work truck in the way its predecessor often was, nor can it be used as such in many applications where the old car was frequently used, adapted or converted, as an RRV, shunter, railbus, 6x6, fire engine, telehandler, half-track, off-road hauler of heavy (i.e. north of 3500kg!) goods or machinery... and I can't wait to see how that monocoque stands up to being air-dropped.
In response to the tangential comment about my 760Li, it's the old naturally-aspirated N73-powered E66, not the turbo N74 powered F02, so more closely related to the Phantom 7, and somehow I can't imagine even the Ghost handling like a big E39 on a twisty Devon B-road in the way the E66 does. The ride is rather firmer than I'd expect in a Rolls-Royce, which suits me fine. Plus I personally can't stand the looks of the modern Rolls-Royces. Roy Axe got it right with the Seraph/Arnage. The E66 is no beauty, but at least it's not conspicuously vulgar. It's anonymous and doesn't attract the wrong sort of attention like a Rolls-Royce does. Most people don't even notice the bootlid identifier or the little V12 badges on the wings. Plus it's hardly any bigger than a G30 5-series, which helps it blend in. Getting back on topic, what unites it and the Grenadier is their shared absolute faithfulness to themselves and fitness for purpose. Neither is a cheap knock-off of something more prestigious. The Grenadier is demonstrably the truer successor to the Series/Defender in terms of who will buy it and what it does. The Nude Offender is just JLR's seventh independently suspended monocoque SUV. It is not a work truck in the way its predecessor often was, nor can it be used as such in many applications where the old car was frequently used, adapted or converted, as an RRV, shunter, railbus, 6x6, fire engine, telehandler, half-track, off-road hauler of heavy (i.e. north of 3500kg!) goods or machinery... and I can't wait to see how that monocoque stands up to being air-dropped.
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