High grip or lower grip tyres for road use?
Discussion
Elatino1 said:
rockin said:
df76 said:
xjay1337 said:
Honestly I don't know why anyone wouldn't fit the very best tyres you can for your use.
Agreed. Would be nonsense to do anything else.Johnspex said:
SidewaysSi said:
rockin said:
df76 said:
xjay1337 said:
Honestly I don't know why anyone wouldn't fit the very best tyres you can for your use.
Agreed. Would be nonsense to do anything else.What an odd comment.
Some people! Concerned about there being others one the road who just want to get the tail out at will. You carry on mate. After all if you injure someone it probably won't be a member of your family.
Honestly , how old are you?
Why don't you call a few car manufacturers and tell them they need to fit sticky rubber to their cars out of the factory as most certainly don't.
And maybe the tyre manufacturers need to pull their fingers out and design tyres that have total grip in all conditions?
Do that first then come and tell us when it's all sorted so we can all go out and buy the "right" tyre.
If you can actually read what people are saying, this isn't about fitting ditch finders.
Mate.
An interesting debate.
I prefer lower grip on my 'fun' cars. Family duties higher grip.
By lower grip, it means I feel more going on at lower speeds. Scrabbling of wheels, back end twitching, front end starting to loose grip. One criticism of my Smart Roadster is that it has too much grip, thus making it appear to handle very well. In reality it grips very well, removing some involvement from the experience. Next set of tyres will be following the OPs recommendations.
My 330i is quick, competent and grippy - obviously making it very safe at increasing speeds. My fear is no fear. When will it ever break any traction?, where is the limit?, certainly not prepared to try this on the road. And so I have been massively disappointed in this car, it is boring, quick, competent and grippy - but maybe just right for family duties, unfortunately my commute is also mundane on some usually empty country A and B roads.
I prefer lower grip on my 'fun' cars. Family duties higher grip.
By lower grip, it means I feel more going on at lower speeds. Scrabbling of wheels, back end twitching, front end starting to loose grip. One criticism of my Smart Roadster is that it has too much grip, thus making it appear to handle very well. In reality it grips very well, removing some involvement from the experience. Next set of tyres will be following the OPs recommendations.
My 330i is quick, competent and grippy - obviously making it very safe at increasing speeds. My fear is no fear. When will it ever break any traction?, where is the limit?, certainly not prepared to try this on the road. And so I have been massively disappointed in this car, it is boring, quick, competent and grippy - but maybe just right for family duties, unfortunately my commute is also mundane on some usually empty country A and B roads.
As 300 bhp/ton asked about weekend car tyres, my choice is AD08R.
Not much choice if any from the usual manufacturers so Yokohama, Toyo and Avon are my main options.
Car doesn't get used in the rain/cold unless needed or caught out in Snowdonia microclimate shower! Toyo 888 or Avon ZZR would rarely get up to temp on the road and be a bit sketchy on the odd occasion when it sees standing water. Yesterday I had to drive back from having new toe links fitted in torrential rain on the M6, not something I'd like to do on anything more focused than AD08R's.
Heard mixed reviews on the new AD08RS, so may look into Avon ZZS.
Not much choice if any from the usual manufacturers so Yokohama, Toyo and Avon are my main options.
Car doesn't get used in the rain/cold unless needed or caught out in Snowdonia microclimate shower! Toyo 888 or Avon ZZR would rarely get up to temp on the road and be a bit sketchy on the odd occasion when it sees standing water. Yesterday I had to drive back from having new toe links fitted in torrential rain on the M6, not something I'd like to do on anything more focused than AD08R's.
Heard mixed reviews on the new AD08RS, so may look into Avon ZZS.
SidewaysSi said:
Elatino1 said:
rockin said:
df76 said:
xjay1337 said:
Honestly I don't know why anyone wouldn't fit the very best tyres you can for your use.
Agreed. Would be nonsense to do anything else.He said very clearly road going Michelin. So that is literally only referring to the PS4 as that's the only UHP Summer tyre offered.
Primacy are a commuting tyre.
Cross climates are all season
Cup 2 are track tyres.
P Zero are fine good, latest versions are anyway, but all around Michelin offer the best compromise between dry and wet grip, feedback , handling , mileage and price.
Anyway if you want to be petulant, get whatever "UHP Summer" tyre from your preferred manufacturer.
Unfortunately some people don't realise you can't get a tyre that is "slip slidey at low speeds" because you're a dRiViNg EnThUsIaST - but also gives you good and consistent wet grip or braking. It's simply a delusion. If you want to be doing skids then do it on a track or a specific area designed for it, not the public road ! So the argument to fit low grip tyres is instantly null and voided.
To fit anything other than a high quality tyre is madness.
GravelBen said:
I generally prefer a lower grip tyre for fun, but with consistent response and feel (no soft wobbly sidewalls) and avoiding really budget tyres which are often ok in the dry but teflon in the wet. Its hard to find a lower grip tyre with a firm sidewall though.
The 'won't somebody think of the children you must have the grippiest tyres you can possibly afford' brigade are wrong when it comes to enthusiastic driving IMO - with stickier tyres you won't have any less desire to play with their limits at times, but the speeds will be higher with less margin for error when you do.
I had semislicks on a turbo MX5 for a while. They were actually still better than most road tyres I've had in the wet, but they raised the limits in the dry so high that road driving became less fun. On an interesting road you were often limited by visibility before you felt like you were really working the tyres, and if you did let loose and have fun you quickly found yourself in irresponsible territory. Magic on track though, you could still play sideways games just at higher speed and without melting and falling apart like road tyres on track.
I’m glad you posted this. As it is exactly my thoughts. Grippy or semi slicks just mean you are going a lot faster to enjoy the vehicle. And they tend to make it more snappy at the limit, because of the speed. The 'won't somebody think of the children you must have the grippiest tyres you can possibly afford' brigade are wrong when it comes to enthusiastic driving IMO - with stickier tyres you won't have any less desire to play with their limits at times, but the speeds will be higher with less margin for error when you do.
I had semislicks on a turbo MX5 for a while. They were actually still better than most road tyres I've had in the wet, but they raised the limits in the dry so high that road driving became less fun. On an interesting road you were often limited by visibility before you felt like you were really working the tyres, and if you did let loose and have fun you quickly found yourself in irresponsible territory. Magic on track though, you could still play sideways games just at higher speed and without melting and falling apart like road tyres on track.
Therefore a less grippy tyre in many ways seems a safer road option. As you’ll be able to have fun at lower speeds. But I completely agree about the sidewall, I don’t want to dull the turn in or make it feel a squidgy mess just because of the tyre choice.
I’m also very glad you have said about wet weather grip with semi slicks too. My Pilot Sport Cup tyres were brilliant in the wet. Much more grip than most normal road tyres, on the proviso there wasn’t standing water or heavy run off.
300bhp/ton said:
Therefore a less grippy tyre in many ways seems a safer road option. As you’ll be able to have fun at lower speeds. But I completely agree about the sidewall, I don’t want to dull the turn in or make it feel a squidgy mess just because of the tyre choice.
I’m also very glad you have said about wet weather grip with semi slicks too. My Pilot Sport Cup tyres were brilliant in the wet. Much more grip than most normal road tyres, on the proviso there wasn’t standing water or heavy run off.
Sorry these opinions are unfortunately wrong.I’m also very glad you have said about wet weather grip with semi slicks too. My Pilot Sport Cup tyres were brilliant in the wet. Much more grip than most normal road tyres, on the proviso there wasn’t standing water or heavy run off.
Backed up by data on wet braking data from Tyrereviews.co.uk .
Also the statement "a less grippy tyre is a safer road option" - absolute BS . Sorry.
xjay1337 said:
Sorry these opinions are unfortunately wrong.
Backed up by data on wet braking data from Tyrereviews.co.uk .
Also the statement "a less grippy tyre is a safer road option" - absolute BS . Sorry.
So you reckon cornering say 10mph faster with a more sudden brake away is safer than a progressive breakaway at lower speeds?Backed up by data on wet braking data from Tyrereviews.co.uk .
Also the statement "a less grippy tyre is a safer road option" - absolute BS . Sorry.
Haven’t followed the link yet. But is that site just people posting reviews based on personal opinion. Or is it scientific testing of tyres? I’m assuming you are referring to semi slick wet weather performance?
While it is fairly hard to argue against a more grippy tyre being safer in absolute terms, if there was a slight trade off in feedback and feel so that you could access your cars balance more easily I can see the argument. I don't think OP was meaning to fit some Chinese recyled coat hangers in the name of sliding about on every corner.
I do think that the quest for all out grip can be at the cost of enjoyment, particularly if you favour a cars balance at sane speeds. Obviously you would drive to the conditions.
I do think that the quest for all out grip can be at the cost of enjoyment, particularly if you favour a cars balance at sane speeds. Obviously you would drive to the conditions.
I can’t suggest that the “best” option is anything other than the tyre with the greatest level of grip, be that dry or wet weather, especially given the amount of comments that are posted on Pistonheads that make it apparent that there is a growing number of drivers who see the major controls as having two settings, on or off.
However, I remember driving a S2 106 Rallye about 15 years ago on “normal” tyres and it was a joy, adjustable, playful, agile, a fantastic thing to drive. I then drove the same sat with the tyres swapped to whatever the most sporting Yokohama tyre in the correct size was at the time and it was ruined, leaden, clumsy, far too much grip.
So for driving enjoyment, I do believe it’s possible to have too much grip, even if it’s difficult to argue the same point from a safety perspective.
However, I remember driving a S2 106 Rallye about 15 years ago on “normal” tyres and it was a joy, adjustable, playful, agile, a fantastic thing to drive. I then drove the same sat with the tyres swapped to whatever the most sporting Yokohama tyre in the correct size was at the time and it was ruined, leaden, clumsy, far too much grip.
So for driving enjoyment, I do believe it’s possible to have too much grip, even if it’s difficult to argue the same point from a safety perspective.
f1nn said:
I can’t suggest that the “best” option is anything other than the tyre with the greatest level of grip, be that dry or wet weather, especially given the amount of comments that are posted on Pistonheads that make it apparent that there is a growing number of drivers who see the major controls as having two settings, on or off.
However, I remember driving a S2 106 Rallye about 15 years ago on “normal” tyres and it was a joy, adjustable, playful, agile, a fantastic thing to drive. I then drove the same sat with the tyres swapped to whatever the most sporting Yokohama tyre in the correct size was at the time and it was ruined, leaden, clumsy, far too much grip.
So for driving enjoyment, I do believe it’s possible to have too much grip, even if it’s difficult to argue the same point from a safety perspective.
The lack of nuance in this thread devalues it to some shouty football argument to me.However, I remember driving a S2 106 Rallye about 15 years ago on “normal” tyres and it was a joy, adjustable, playful, agile, a fantastic thing to drive. I then drove the same sat with the tyres swapped to whatever the most sporting Yokohama tyre in the correct size was at the time and it was ruined, leaden, clumsy, far too much grip.
So for driving enjoyment, I do believe it’s possible to have too much grip, even if it’s difficult to argue the same point from a safety perspective.
I have been de-tyre-ing all of my cars in the last few years. Best example I can give here is the 996. I bought it with 18 wheels. I then switched to 17 inch. The diameter makes a difference but for anyone reading who is not a Porsche expert - very few people hopefully - the biggest difference is the tyre widths. The fronts on 18 inch are the good old 225 40 18 which is one of the most common tyres sold. The 17 are 205 50 17. It makes such a difference to the feel and feedback through the steering wheel going to a slimmer and lighter wheel and tyre combo. You might look at that little 205 tyre and think no way it can cope with the power and weight of car but it does just fine. The car still has way more grip than I have balls or my skill set will allow and I only drive it on roads.
Now it is difficult wrapping your head around going for the less grippy option because we always believe that more is more but I am starting to believe that less is more. Cheesy I know.
I also had an unfortunate aquaplaning moment recently which has reinforced my belief that slimmer tyres are better. No one tyre is perfect for all conditions so we have to compromise.
My current thought process is not to buy average tyres deliberately but instead to go down a size or 2 and still buy good tyres. Hopefully then I will get good grip and feel and progressive break away but also minimise my chances of more aquaplaning.
Now it is difficult wrapping your head around going for the less grippy option because we always believe that more is more but I am starting to believe that less is more. Cheesy I know.
I also had an unfortunate aquaplaning moment recently which has reinforced my belief that slimmer tyres are better. No one tyre is perfect for all conditions so we have to compromise.
My current thought process is not to buy average tyres deliberately but instead to go down a size or 2 and still buy good tyres. Hopefully then I will get good grip and feel and progressive break away but also minimise my chances of more aquaplaning.
xu5 said:
While it is fairly hard to argue against a more grippy tyre being safer in absolute terms, if there was a slight trade off in feedback and feel so that you could access your cars balance more easily I can see the argument. I don't think OP was meaning to fit some Chinese recyled coat hangers in the name of sliding about on every corner.
I do think that the quest for all out grip can be at the cost of enjoyment, particularly if you favour a cars balance at sane speeds. Obviously you would drive to the conditions.
Absolutely spot on. I do think that the quest for all out grip can be at the cost of enjoyment, particularly if you favour a cars balance at sane speeds. Obviously you would drive to the conditions.
Leaving aside the public roads thing I really enjoy karting and I don't think I'd enjoy it so much on sticky tyres that just er stuck, drifting counter steer and general movement add to the experience. Chris Harris and the GT86 review shows his genuine excitement at 'movement' in the car.
The same cars get sold with square tyre sets say 245's all round and stagger sets 275 and 245 are the manufacturers irresponsible? People years later balk at a +£300 run flat replacement so get a cheapo one, hell run flats themselves get bad press they aren't ideal as it not having a spare as a run flat can get catastrophically damaged and leave you stranded on a potentially dangerous road.
Research, get trusted word of mouth recommendations, and then take time to get used to them in all conditions. There are lots of great tyres and lots of very good ones, you have to drop really cheap to creep into the bad ones where I really don't think it's worth going as some in the wet especially can be shocking.
The same cars get sold with square tyre sets say 245's all round and stagger sets 275 and 245 are the manufacturers irresponsible? People years later balk at a +£300 run flat replacement so get a cheapo one, hell run flats themselves get bad press they aren't ideal as it not having a spare as a run flat can get catastrophically damaged and leave you stranded on a potentially dangerous road.
Research, get trusted word of mouth recommendations, and then take time to get used to them in all conditions. There are lots of great tyres and lots of very good ones, you have to drop really cheap to creep into the bad ones where I really don't think it's worth going as some in the wet especially can be shocking.
I would fit some nice all round road going tyres. As you said, if you go too slicky there is a mild slight risk you will loose some of the progressive you enjoy (if mainly from the high profile sizes) but also that if you get caught out in heavy weather you my regret not having more tread.
In autotest the westfield, and you as re limited to list 1a tyres, which rules out semi slicks, I use the Yokohama A539 which is available in the 13" size I need and appears to be a good tyre.
Daniel
In autotest the westfield, and you as re limited to list 1a tyres, which rules out semi slicks, I use the Yokohama A539 which is available in the 13" size I need and appears to be a good tyre.
Daniel
300bhp/ton said:
This track tyre is rated at B for wet use. And is marketed as good in the wet.
I have ran the NS2r on the road and track. It's a great budget semi. It's good in the wet for a budget semi. It's quite poor in the wet compared to a decent road tyre, which is to be expected given its "land mass".The B rating can be ignored entirely.
300bhp/ton said:
GravelBen said:
I generally prefer a lower grip tyre for fun, but with consistent response and feel (no soft wobbly sidewalls) and avoiding really budget tyres which are often ok in the dry but teflon in the wet. Its hard to find a lower grip tyre with a firm sidewall though.
The 'won't somebody think of the children you must have the grippiest tyres you can possibly afford' brigade are wrong when it comes to enthusiastic driving IMO - with stickier tyres you won't have any less desire to play with their limits at times, but the speeds will be higher with less margin for error when you do.
I had semislicks on a turbo MX5 for a while. They were actually still better than most road tyres I've had in the wet, but they raised the limits in the dry so high that road driving became less fun. On an interesting road you were often limited by visibility before you felt like you were really working the tyres, and if you did let loose and have fun you quickly found yourself in irresponsible territory. Magic on track though, you could still play sideways games just at higher speed and without melting and falling apart like road tyres on track.
I’m glad you posted this. As it is exactly my thoughts. Grippy or semi slicks just mean you are going a lot faster to enjoy the vehicle. And they tend to make it more snappy at the limit, because of the speed. The 'won't somebody think of the children you must have the grippiest tyres you can possibly afford' brigade are wrong when it comes to enthusiastic driving IMO - with stickier tyres you won't have any less desire to play with their limits at times, but the speeds will be higher with less margin for error when you do.
I had semislicks on a turbo MX5 for a while. They were actually still better than most road tyres I've had in the wet, but they raised the limits in the dry so high that road driving became less fun. On an interesting road you were often limited by visibility before you felt like you were really working the tyres, and if you did let loose and have fun you quickly found yourself in irresponsible territory. Magic on track though, you could still play sideways games just at higher speed and without melting and falling apart like road tyres on track.
Therefore a less grippy tyre in many ways seems a safer road option. As you’ll be able to have fun at lower speeds. But I completely agree about the sidewall, I don’t want to dull the turn in or make it feel a squidgy mess just because of the tyre choice.
I’m also very glad you have said about wet weather grip with semi slicks too. My Pilot Sport Cup tyres were brilliant in the wet. Much more grip than most normal road tyres, on the proviso there wasn’t standing water or heavy run off.
Safety is more or less a moot point, a competent driver will drive within the limits of their vehicle/tyres and road conditions anyway.
While the stickier tyres may have shorter stopping distances in some conditions, if you consider the human factor its quite likely that the extra confidence in that grip will result in stopping from a higher speed and balance it out.
FWIW I had Achilles 123 semis on the turbo MX5 (~250rwhp) which are quite well treaded by semislick standards, but still track focussed and used as a control tyre by some production based race series here. Tyre guy that supplied them reckoned a couple of seconds a lap slower than R888 around the local circuit, but longer lasting and heaps cheaper. Quite progressive breakaway too, I never found them snappy at all.
My current Mk2 MX5 has Michelin PS3 rubber (in 195/50R15 which is tiny by modern standards), I think any more grip would make it less fun at sensible road speeds and I might go for a bit less grip when they wear out. With its mighty 140bhp and LSD you have to actively provoke it to slide even in the wet, and it hooks up traction again very easily when you do.
Edited by GravelBen on Saturday 4th July 12:20
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