Homeworking - commuting to local office?
Discussion
We're looking to reduce our office space and designate more staff as formal "Homeworkers". What we plan on doing is to reduce the square footage of our London office by one-third. This will save us >£1m in rent. Some staff will still need to be "office based" but possibly 80% can be designated as homeworkers and will only need to come into the office 1 or 2 days per week (mainly for things like team meetings, client meetings)
As they will be designated homeworkers will the costs of this travel be "claimable" on expenses or will HMRC regard it as their ordinary commute (seeing as they're going in 1/ or days per week every week to the office where they were previously based)?
I hope that makes sense. All comments/suggestions welcome
As they will be designated homeworkers will the costs of this travel be "claimable" on expenses or will HMRC regard it as their ordinary commute (seeing as they're going in 1/ or days per week every week to the office where they were previously based)?
I hope that makes sense. All comments/suggestions welcome
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Out of curiosity do you think anyone would claim?
I'm in a similar position and from my perspective I've saved a fortune on petrol and couldn't see myself even thinking of trying to claim if I had to drive in once or twice a week rather than 5 days a week.
Very valid point. We don't think any of the current staff would (for the reason you mention). It's when NEW people join the company and assume that HMRC rules are applicable. You then run a risk of newbies submitting claims and the existing staff submitting backdated claims.I'm in a similar position and from my perspective I've saved a fortune on petrol and couldn't see myself even thinking of trying to claim if I had to drive in once or twice a week rather than 5 days a week.
HMRC are really hot on the subject of commuting to an office if a worker has home as their designated place of work. My company was subject to some serious HMRC scrutiny a couple of years ago and the upshot was that all of us home based workers had to battle to keep our contactual place of work as 'home' that would allow travel expenses to be claimed from the employer. I live over 200 miles away so it was pretty clear that I didn't choose to work from home only for convenience, but those that lived in commutable distance had their contracts amended.
In the OPs case, if it has been shown that you are in commutable distance from the office and have previously done it 5 days a week, your employer will not be able to convince HMRC that you are home office based, and all commuting will be at your expense.
In the OPs case, if it has been shown that you are in commutable distance from the office and have previously done it 5 days a week, your employer will not be able to convince HMRC that you are home office based, and all commuting will be at your expense.
Majority of our staff are on home contracts. We all expense trips to the office (not a frequent as yours) whether they are 200 miles or 4 miles (through coincidence)
Surely when you migrate the staff to the 'new' WFH contracts, just say stuff can't be backdated as they were office based then and it was a normal commute?
Surely when you migrate the staff to the 'new' WFH contracts, just say stuff can't be backdated as they were office based then and it was a normal commute?
I've had to work from home for some of this period.
I don't have a space at home to call a home office.
If I were then told by a my company to "work from home" could I ask for expenses to make a home office and other facilities that I need? I live in a mobile black-spot, so no PC communication is difficult. I go to my shed to make mobile calls as it is up the hill form the house.
My kids school (by chance) is near where I work so i go home - school, loop past work - home. Actually spend more time on the road that if I were just going to the office and more fuel.
I would have nowhere at home to store my work kit that is currently inaccessible i my work office. Between jobs that goes in a "yellow box store". Should work pay for that?
also what about extra home insurance costs. My home insurance didn't put my premium up but won't cover my works gear. they also said by renewal they expect me to have informed my mortgage provider I use part of my premises for business if this becomes a long term prospect.
I don't have a space at home to call a home office.
If I were then told by a my company to "work from home" could I ask for expenses to make a home office and other facilities that I need? I live in a mobile black-spot, so no PC communication is difficult. I go to my shed to make mobile calls as it is up the hill form the house.
My kids school (by chance) is near where I work so i go home - school, loop past work - home. Actually spend more time on the road that if I were just going to the office and more fuel.
I would have nowhere at home to store my work kit that is currently inaccessible i my work office. Between jobs that goes in a "yellow box store". Should work pay for that?
also what about extra home insurance costs. My home insurance didn't put my premium up but won't cover my works gear. they also said by renewal they expect me to have informed my mortgage provider I use part of my premises for business if this becomes a long term prospect.
Countdown said:
What we plan on doing is to reduce the square footage of our London office by one-third. This will save us >£1m in rent. Some staff will still need to be "office based" but possibly 80% can be designated as homeworkers and will only need to come into the office 1 or 2 days per week (mainly for things like team meetings, client meetings)
That sounds more like a hot-desking set up than home based workers who only occasionally need to go to the office.ETA - Isn't there some employer H&S obligations associated with homeworkers? Those, combined with the HMRC risks mentioned above, might preferred to be avoided by a company. Cutting space by one third suggests people could still be accommodated for 3 days a week. I suspect cutting space, declaring hot desking, encouraging working from home a few days per week but leaving the office as the contractual place of work would be beneficial for the company by giving it more control of when people need to be there rather than when they choose to be there.
Edited by JxJ Jr. on Monday 6th July 22:23
Bullett said:
I claim when I go to the office, but, and I understand this is the critical point I do not attend on a regular pattern or specified day. If it's regular then it is considered commuting and not claimable.
This was my experience when my employer was audited by HMRC in 2009. HMRC did not view the place of work stated in your contract as particularly relevant. They were more interested in what people actually did. If you worked from home everyday except Monday when you had to come to the office for a team meeting then that trip to the office was not claimable as it was to your regular place of work (for a Monday). For trips to the office to be claimable they needed to be genuinely ad-hoc.I had this very issue in my last position.
I was fully home based and my place of work was listed as my home address. Any travel to anywhere was chargeable as an expense for me.
My colleague was unsure if she would like being home based, so pushed for a 60:40 split (2 days a week office based) in her contract with her home and the office listed as the place of work. As she had an alternate place of work listed outside of her home, she was not permitted to ever claim travel expenses to the office as it was a listed place of work.
I used to use common sense however - I wouldn't charge to pop down the road, but my nearest office was 100+ miles away, so any trips there I absolutely would expense. I did, however, limit my trips there and certainly would go there "just because", there had to be a reason (meeting/audit etc.)
I was fully home based and my place of work was listed as my home address. Any travel to anywhere was chargeable as an expense for me.
My colleague was unsure if she would like being home based, so pushed for a 60:40 split (2 days a week office based) in her contract with her home and the office listed as the place of work. As she had an alternate place of work listed outside of her home, she was not permitted to ever claim travel expenses to the office as it was a listed place of work.
I used to use common sense however - I wouldn't charge to pop down the road, but my nearest office was 100+ miles away, so any trips there I absolutely would expense. I did, however, limit my trips there and certainly would go there "just because", there had to be a reason (meeting/audit etc.)
Just to add couple of points to this as we got caught out on a similar issue.
The phrase in employment contracts is 'Permanent Place of Work' (PPOW) - that where the person is based and does their work. This can be their home. Travel expense has been covered by others but you also need to consider time to travel to the office. In other words the time it takes for someone to travel from the home to the office when their home is their PPOW has to be included within their allotted weekly hours itself governed by the working time directive. This doesn't apply if they commute to the office each day. You can of course ask them to opt out of the WTD but doing so has to be their choice.
This may change once Brexit is done but for the time being, that's the ruling.
The phrase in employment contracts is 'Permanent Place of Work' (PPOW) - that where the person is based and does their work. This can be their home. Travel expense has been covered by others but you also need to consider time to travel to the office. In other words the time it takes for someone to travel from the home to the office when their home is their PPOW has to be included within their allotted weekly hours itself governed by the working time directive. This doesn't apply if they commute to the office each day. You can of course ask them to opt out of the WTD but doing so has to be their choice.
This may change once Brexit is done but for the time being, that's the ruling.
There is a fairly lengthy HMRC document on this: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
There is no straight answer, and designation of being a "homeworker" doesn't necessarily make any difference. it is entirely possible to have multiple permanent places of work in HMRC's eyes.
There is a well publicised tax tribunal case of a Dr Samadian - the very edited highlights were he worked at an NHS hospital, but did private clinics at other locations on a regular schedule. HMRC claimed that travel between his home or the NHS hospital and the private clinic locations was commuting as these were permanent places of work. If however he went from the NHS hospital to home to collect a patient file, then to the priviate clinic that would be business travel and not subject to tax. HMRC won.
The employer can pay their employees whatever expenses they like - the issue is whether those expenses are taxable or not.
When I read this document a while ago it seems to hinge on the purpose of the visit to the office. If you are going to perform a specific task that is required to be performed at that location, eg. a customer meeting, collect or deliver goods or paperwork etc, then that is not taxable.
If you're in sales and all the sales staff come into the office every Friday to meet their manager and network with other team members, then in HMRC's view the office is a permanent place of work and the journey is normal commuting and is taxable.
Routine is not necessarily a deal breaker though. For example I know of a case where member of staff has to do a 200 mile round trip to attend a premises every Monday to change backup tapes. As he is going to the location to perform a specific task that can only be done at that location, that is not taxable.
There is no straight answer, and designation of being a "homeworker" doesn't necessarily make any difference. it is entirely possible to have multiple permanent places of work in HMRC's eyes.
There is a well publicised tax tribunal case of a Dr Samadian - the very edited highlights were he worked at an NHS hospital, but did private clinics at other locations on a regular schedule. HMRC claimed that travel between his home or the NHS hospital and the private clinic locations was commuting as these were permanent places of work. If however he went from the NHS hospital to home to collect a patient file, then to the priviate clinic that would be business travel and not subject to tax. HMRC won.
The employer can pay their employees whatever expenses they like - the issue is whether those expenses are taxable or not.
When I read this document a while ago it seems to hinge on the purpose of the visit to the office. If you are going to perform a specific task that is required to be performed at that location, eg. a customer meeting, collect or deliver goods or paperwork etc, then that is not taxable.
If you're in sales and all the sales staff come into the office every Friday to meet their manager and network with other team members, then in HMRC's view the office is a permanent place of work and the journey is normal commuting and is taxable.
Routine is not necessarily a deal breaker though. For example I know of a case where member of staff has to do a 200 mile round trip to attend a premises every Monday to change backup tapes. As he is going to the location to perform a specific task that can only be done at that location, that is not taxable.
My understanding is that attending your employers office (even ad-hoc) is taxable travel, but you should be allowed to claim expenses and mileage from your company office to your client sites (but not from your home to the client site)
Having worked from home for ~10 years there is also around £4 a week you can claim for basic expenses such as electricity and heating. It also possible to rent some of your home to your employer for business use which means you can claim more but you need to be careful with home contents and buldings insurance and the like, as you are effectively turning your residence into a business property
Having worked from home for ~10 years there is also around £4 a week you can claim for basic expenses such as electricity and heating. It also possible to rent some of your home to your employer for business use which means you can claim more but you need to be careful with home contents and buldings insurance and the like, as you are effectively turning your residence into a business property
Edited by itsnotarace on Wednesday 8th July 10:20
Thanks all - our Tax Advisor has replied. He has basically echoed Quinny's post below.
quinny100 said:
There is a fairly lengthy HMRC document on this: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
There is no straight answer, and designation of being a "homeworker" doesn't necessarily make any difference. it is entirely possible to have multiple permanent places of work in HMRC's eyes.
There is a well publicised tax tribunal case of a Dr Samadian - the very edited highlights were he worked at an NHS hospital, but did private clinics at other locations on a regular schedule. HMRC claimed that travel between his home or the NHS hospital and the private clinic locations was commuting as these were permanent places of work. If however he went from the NHS hospital to home to collect a patient file, then to the priviate clinic that would be business travel and not subject to tax. HMRC won.
The employer can pay their employees whatever expenses they like - the issue is whether those expenses are taxable or not.
When I read this document a while ago it seems to hinge on the purpose of the visit to the office. If you are going to perform a specific task that is required to be performed at that location, eg. a customer meeting, collect or deliver goods or paperwork etc, then that is not taxable.
If you're in sales and all the sales staff come into the office every Friday to meet their manager and network with other team members, then in HMRC's view the office is a permanent place of work and the journey is normal commuting and is taxable.
Routine is not necessarily a deal breaker though. For example I know of a case where member of staff has to do a 200 mile round trip to attend a premises every Monday to change backup tapes. As he is going to the location to perform a specific task that can only be done at that location, that is not taxable.
You don't work for a "Quite large but not Big 4"Accountancy practice do you? There is no straight answer, and designation of being a "homeworker" doesn't necessarily make any difference. it is entirely possible to have multiple permanent places of work in HMRC's eyes.
There is a well publicised tax tribunal case of a Dr Samadian - the very edited highlights were he worked at an NHS hospital, but did private clinics at other locations on a regular schedule. HMRC claimed that travel between his home or the NHS hospital and the private clinic locations was commuting as these were permanent places of work. If however he went from the NHS hospital to home to collect a patient file, then to the priviate clinic that would be business travel and not subject to tax. HMRC won.
The employer can pay their employees whatever expenses they like - the issue is whether those expenses are taxable or not.
When I read this document a while ago it seems to hinge on the purpose of the visit to the office. If you are going to perform a specific task that is required to be performed at that location, eg. a customer meeting, collect or deliver goods or paperwork etc, then that is not taxable.
If you're in sales and all the sales staff come into the office every Friday to meet their manager and network with other team members, then in HMRC's view the office is a permanent place of work and the journey is normal commuting and is taxable.
Routine is not necessarily a deal breaker though. For example I know of a case where member of staff has to do a 200 mile round trip to attend a premises every Monday to change backup tapes. As he is going to the location to perform a specific task that can only be done at that location, that is not taxable.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
We've got about 12 regional offices. If people were travelling to an office where they weren't normally based then T&S would be paid. What we don't want to do is to let everybody WFH and then they start claiming T&S for coming into the office where they used to be based. And based on the guidance it looks like they can't do this unless it's extremely rare/ad-hoc.
I'm on the other end of this.
The office I have worked from for the last 13 years is being closed, and we will be working from home/hotdesking at our other office 50 miles away. I used to do the commute in the other direction, it was anywhere between 1 and 2 hours each way and I got fed up with it quickly and bought a house within a mile of the office.
Today I had notification of consultation about our contracts being amended to the other office as being our place of work. However, if we are being told to work from home, surely "home" should be our place of work, rather than an office we will only visit occasionaly.
Are there any benefits to the employee of being classed as working from home, or working from the office (but actually working from home)?
The office I have worked from for the last 13 years is being closed, and we will be working from home/hotdesking at our other office 50 miles away. I used to do the commute in the other direction, it was anywhere between 1 and 2 hours each way and I got fed up with it quickly and bought a house within a mile of the office.
Today I had notification of consultation about our contracts being amended to the other office as being our place of work. However, if we are being told to work from home, surely "home" should be our place of work, rather than an office we will only visit occasionaly.
Are there any benefits to the employee of being classed as working from home, or working from the office (but actually working from home)?
My contract has home as my normal place of work, that is clarified further by the company as being 'remote or mostly remote'. I (used to!!) go to the office a couple of times a month as needed for work (hot desk), or would go to one of our international offices or customer sites. I've always worked on the basis that as soon as I step out side of the house, anything I do for business purposes would be able to be expensed within the limits of the company policy, which is pretty generous anyway. I'm over 100 miles away from the office.
Always claimed return milage to the station and the return train ticket with no issue.
Always claimed return milage to the station and the return train ticket with no issue.
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