RE: Ineos Grenadier may be built in France

[B10]

Veg said:

Not sure I want BMW engines either! Bits of plastic in the inlet manifold etc

I reckon Steyr are going to build at least 6-10,000 a year so who needs a dedicated manufacturing plant especially if you're market reputation is unknown. Dare I say France is smoke and mirrors to move away from a commitment!

Good point. Since Magna are doping the 4x4 engineering it would make sense to make there is Austria too.

[Jimmy Recard]

B10 said:

Earlier this year UK Manufacturing Index fell to Lowest Levels in 30years. So not all sweetness and light.

Isn't that the same for pretty much all developed countries though? Covid has had the effect everywhere

[B10]

Jimmy Recard said:

B10 said:

Earlier this year UK Manufacturing Index fell to Lowest Levels in 30years. So not all sweetness and light.

Isn't that the same for pretty much all developed countries though? Covid has had the effect everywhere

I am referring to pre-Covid effects obv

[Mining Subsidence Man]

It's a fking auto.

[chelme]

Mining Subsidence Man said:

It's a fking auto.

Stick to Cornish Pasties.

[ATG]

Sway said:

InitialDave said:

ATG said:

Stuart70 said:

InitialDave said:

Condi said:

How can he build a plant here, with no idea what if any costs are involved with shipping parts from the EU to the UK and then completed cars back again? The EU is the obvious choice and always will be because even if they agree 0 tariffs, that can change with a change of the wind.

If he hadn't been a supporter of Brexit, with all the above being blatantly obvious beforehand, I would agree with you.

But he was, and it was, so my attitude is somewhat one of he helped make this bed, and he should bloody well lie in it.

He is, by fking off and building his factory somewhere he could make money.
More fool the other idiots who voted for Brexit... believing him that there was a bright new manufacturing future in Britain.

Particularly when the economist in chief of the Brexit movement, Patrick Minford, said the UK car industry would need to be "wound down" if we left the EU and that Brexit would "eliminate manufacturing".

My reply was regarding the idea that this is a sensible business decision etc under the circumstances we are currently in/are likely to be in due to Brexit, which is one a few people seem to be voicing.

Yes, in that sense, it's a good business decision, and the one I might well make myself - but I am not pro-Brexit, I wasn't pro-Brexit, and I did not support Brexit and so directly assist in said circumstances coming to pass.

It's the combination of the two factors together that's the issue. Supporting the Brexit guff, then not putting his manufacturing plant where his mouth is.

So all the "good business decision" shows, as per Stuart70's reply, is that his Brexit support was for his own ends.

Not surprised, just disappointed.

ATG - Minford proposed a model whereby those industries/businesses relying on subsidies or hiding behind tariff barriers (would that be incentives to locate factories by any chance?) rather than being innovative and competitive would fail. That's not a bad thing...

Being pro-Brexit does not, despite what so many remain supporters in this thread would have you believe, mean that you're anti International trade and business.

Ineos are very clear on this - that there is an emerging overcapacity in the automotive manufacturing base globally. This is enhanced and sped up by Covid.

So there's a ready made plant going for a song. Would you really want a firm to pass that up, instead building on a greenfield site a brand spanking new building "just because"?

Depending on their sales market targets, this could end up costing more per unit than locating in Wales. Offsetting the capital costs of the factory more than makes up for that, in a big way.

Eh? Who ever said that Brexiteers were anti-free trade? Global Britain and free trade is great. The problem is that Brexit makes that harder to achieve.

The idea that being in the EU is about hiding behind trade barriers is nuts. It's about putting yourself inside a market where you get tariff free access to a load of customers. We've taken ourselves out of that market and the EU isn't going to drop its tariffs to a non-member. We haven't taken a step towards deregulating world trade. We've just shoot ourselves in the foot while reducing our ability to influence EU and global trade policy.

Of course Ineos's decision is rational. Who has said otherwise? No manufacturer should feel any loyalty to a country or vice versa. Companies should be focused on productivity and consumers should focus on value. Nationalism just creates inefficiency and market distortion. Go that route and you end up claiming that Danone is a vital national champion because your country needs a strategic supply of yoghurt.

[Sway]

ATG said:

Sway said:

InitialDave said:

ATG said:

Stuart70 said:

InitialDave said:

Condi said:

How can he build a plant here, with no idea what if any costs are involved with shipping parts from the EU to the UK and then completed cars back again? The EU is the obvious choice and always will be because even if they agree 0 tariffs, that can change with a change of the wind.

If he hadn't been a supporter of Brexit, with all the above being blatantly obvious beforehand, I would agree with you.

But he was, and it was, so my attitude is somewhat one of he helped make this bed, and he should bloody well lie in it.

He is, by fking off and building his factory somewhere he could make money.
More fool the other idiots who voted for Brexit... believing him that there was a bright new manufacturing future in Britain.

Particularly when the economist in chief of the Brexit movement, Patrick Minford, said the UK car industry would need to be "wound down" if we left the EU and that Brexit would "eliminate manufacturing".

My reply was regarding the idea that this is a sensible business decision etc under the circumstances we are currently in/are likely to be in due to Brexit, which is one a few people seem to be voicing.

Yes, in that sense, it's a good business decision, and the one I might well make myself - but I am not pro-Brexit, I wasn't pro-Brexit, and I did not support Brexit and so directly assist in said circumstances coming to pass.

It's the combination of the two factors together that's the issue. Supporting the Brexit guff, then not putting his manufacturing plant where his mouth is.

So all the "good business decision" shows, as per Stuart70's reply, is that his Brexit support was for his own ends.

Not surprised, just disappointed.

ATG - Minford proposed a model whereby those industries/businesses relying on subsidies or hiding behind tariff barriers (would that be incentives to locate factories by any chance?) rather than being innovative and competitive would fail. That's not a bad thing...

Being pro-Brexit does not, despite what so many remain supporters in this thread would have you believe, mean that you're anti International trade and business.

Ineos are very clear on this - that there is an emerging overcapacity in the automotive manufacturing base globally. This is enhanced and sped up by Covid.

So there's a ready made plant going for a song. Would you really want a firm to pass that up, instead building on a greenfield site a brand spanking new building "just because"?

Depending on their sales market targets, this could end up costing more per unit than locating in Wales. Offsetting the capital costs of the factory more than makes up for that, in a big way.

Eh? Who ever said that Brexiteers were anti-free trade? Global Britain and free trade is great. The problem is that Brexit makes that harder to achieve.

The idea that being in the EU is about hiding behind trade barriers is nuts. It's about putting yourself inside a market where you get tariff free access to a load of customers. We've taken ourselves out of that market and the EU isn't going to drop its tariffs to a non-member. We haven't taken a step towards deregulating world trade. We've just shoot ourselves in the foot while reducing our ability to influence EU and global trade policy.

Of course Ineos's decision is rational. Who has said otherwise? No manufacturer should feel any loyalty to a country or vice versa. Companies should be focused on productivity and consumers should focus on value. Nationalism just creates inefficiency and market distortion. Go that route and you end up claiming that Danone is a vital national champion because your country needs a strategic supply of yoghurt.

We've already signed continuity FTAs with over 80% of the current trade covered by agreements that isn't EU.

We're still negotiating a deal with the EU - but also our largest single trading partner, plus some more that we don't currently have as the 28 different interests of the EU couldn't align. Let's not forget CETA had over 80k people on the streets of Berlin alone protesting against mooted changes to food standards that didn't actually exist.


Minford is a proponent of unilateral removal of import tariffs - they're the "subsidies" that he's referring to when he said manufacturing would likely die. Already that's not the case, with the critical industries still being protected by those tariffs (on top of increased logistics costs).

In other words, your attributed quote to Minford is highly misleading, and the UK's approach to trade in a post brexit world is a positive one.

[ATG]

citizensm1th said:

Sway said:

citizensm1th said:

Sway said:

We've bounced between 1st and 2nd Globally in the soft power index every year since we voted to leave the EU.

Third this year with the USA and Germany above us

Not according to this?

https://softpower30.com/

No mention of 2020 results.

That's because there is no one single soft power survey, meaningless pr twaddle

Indeed. Talk to someone who works in the Foreign & C Office and ask them if they think we've gained or lost influence as a result of leaving the EU. There's only one answer. For example, de facto the UK used to pretty much control how the EU distributed grants and aid in sub-Saharan Africa. Now we don't. Being one of the biggest nation in a bloc like the EU multiplies your influence because you've got a bigger diplomatic network than than the smaller member states and you get to spend their money as well as your own.

[ATG]

Sway said:

We've already signed continuity FTAs with over 80% of the current trade covered by agreements that isn't EU.

We're still negotiating a deal with the EU - but also our largest single trading partner, plus some more that we don't currently have as the 28 different interests of the EU couldn't align. Let's not forget CETA had over 80k people on the streets of Berlin alone protesting against mooted changes to food standards that didn't actually exist.


Minford is a proponent of unilateral removal of import tariffs - they're the "subsidies" that he's referring to when he said manufacturing would likely die. Already that's not the case, with the critical industries still being protected by those tariffs (on top of increased logistics costs).

In other words, your attributed quote to Minford is highly misleading, and the UK's approach to trade in a post brexit world is a positive one.

The band kept playing as the ship inched lower in the water.

[Mining Subsidence Man]

chelme said:

Stick to Cornish Pasties.

I have a work defender and I like a manual box. I also use it in a forest I own.

I don't want an auto, to the point I just wouldn't want one at any price.

[Sway]

ATG said:

citizensm1th said:

Sway said:

citizensm1th said:

Sway said:

We've bounced between 1st and 2nd Globally in the soft power index every year since we voted to leave the EU.

Third this year with the USA and Germany above us

Not according to this?

https://softpower30.com/

No mention of 2020 results.

That's because there is no one single soft power survey, meaningless pr twaddle

Indeed. Talk to someone who works in the Foreign & C Office and ask them if they think we've gained or lost influence as a result of leaving the EU. There's only one answer. For example, de facto the UK used to pretty much control how the EU distributed grants and aid in sub-Saharan Africa. Now we don't. Being one of the biggest nation in a bloc like the EU multiplies your influence because you've got a bigger diplomatic network than than the smaller member states and you get to spend their money as well as your own.

There is no money from the smaller member states - they're paid to be members...

When are you fleeing the "sinking ship"?

[scimitar76]

We love the defender in the uk and most fans couldn't believe it when they stopped making them, the new Genadier looks a fantastic modern alternative but I tel you this, you won't sell many making them in France, for some reason the French seem to hate us with a passion and in the last two wars all we have done is help to liberate them from the Germans. I won't be buying one if its made in France.

[AnotherClarkey]

scimitar76 said:

We love the defender in the uk and most fans couldn't believe it when they stopped making them, the new Genadier looks a fantastic modern alternative but I tel you this, you won't sell many making them in France, for some reason the French seem to hate us with a passion and in the last two wars all we have done is help to liberate them from the Germans. I won't be buying one if its made in France.

fk me, will this country never move on?

[unsprung]

ATG said:

de facto the UK used to pretty much control how the EU distributed grants and aid in sub-Saharan Africa.

While that is one form of influence -- deciding how a collective will spend its money -- it is not the only form of influence. It is arguably not the most valuable form of influence.

Singapore and Switzerland, for example, exercise disproportionate influence because of the application of strategy: chiefly excellence and innovation at home.

[smifffymoto]

scimitar76 said:

We love the defender in the uk and most fans couldn't believe it when they stopped making them, the new Genadier looks a fantastic modern alternative but I tel you this, you won't sell many making them in France, for some reason the French seem to hate us with a passion and in the last two wars all we have done is help to liberate them from the Germans. I won't be buying one if its made in France.

157 months and your first post is this load of old bks?

[leglessAlex]

scimitar76 said:

We love the defender in the uk and most fans couldn't believe it when they stopped making them, the new Genadier looks a fantastic modern alternative but I tel you this, you won't sell many making them in France, for some reason the French seem to hate us with a passion and in the last two wars all we have done is help to liberate them from the Germans. I won't be buying one if its made in France.

A lot of people post a lot of st on here, myself included, but really?!

You've waited thirteen years and one month to post that?!?

[DonkeyApple]

scimitar76 said:

We love the defender in the uk and most fans couldn't believe it when they stopped making them, the new Genadier looks a fantastic modern alternative but I tel you this, you won't sell many making them in France, for some reason the French seem to hate us with a passion and in the last two wars all we have done is help to liberate them from the Germans. I won't be buying one if its made in France.

That’s an immensely inaccurate post. Closer to the truth is that the French cannot understand why the stout English yoeman randomly dislikes an entire country. As for not buying French produce, we are pretty much their largest single customer.

[CS Garth]

scimitar76 said:

We love the defender in the uk and most fans couldn't believe it when they stopped making them, the new Genadier looks a fantastic modern alternative but I tel you this, you won't sell many making them in France, for some reason the French seem to hate us with a passion and in the last two wars all we have done is help to liberate them from the Germans. I won't be buying one if its made in France.

That’s the problem with the French - no word for entrepreneur.....

[Unknown_User]

scimitar76 said:

We love the defender in the uk and most fans couldn't believe it when they stopped making them, the new Genadier looks a fantastic modern alternative but I tel you this, you won't sell many making them in France, for some reason the French seem to hate us with a passion and in the last two wars all we have done is help to liberate them from the Germans. I won't be buying one if its made in France.

OH.
MY.
DAYS.

The farrage is strong with this one.

scimitar76, you should contribute more often as you appear to be a perfect fit with some of PH's more frothy members!

[DonkeyApple]

CS Garth said:

scimitar76 said:

We love the defender in the uk and most fans couldn't believe it when they stopped making them, the new Genadier looks a fantastic modern alternative but I tel you this, you won't sell many making them in France, for some reason the French seem to hate us with a passion and in the last two wars all we have done is help to liberate them from the Germans. I won't be buying one if its made in France.

That’s the problem with the French - no word for entrepreneur.....

Or grenadier.