RE: Ineos Grenadier may be built in France
Discussion
Car_Nut said:
Like many I am seething with anger at yet another piece of hypocrisy by a Brexiteer. Any comment that I could make would be irrelevant amongst the erudite points made by others - I just wanted to add my small voice to the chorus.
As for the people of South Wales, my heart bleeds for them - they voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, and are getting their reward - I seethed equally when they had the gall to complain that they had been “betrayed” about the closure of the Ford engine plant in Bridgend post-Brexit.
In the words of Michael Corleone: "it's not personal, it's strictly business!"As for the people of South Wales, my heart bleeds for them - they voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, and are getting their reward - I seethed equally when they had the gall to complain that they had been “betrayed” about the closure of the Ford engine plant in Bridgend post-Brexit.
Ares said:
W12AAM said:
And if it does go to France...I hope he will be faced with French working practices of a short week, long holidays, bad workmanship & strikes and other industrial rest, which will be karma for not building it in the UK !
....as opposed to Britain which is so good at manufacturing with it's world beating productivity, helpful unions, sloth-like regulatory bodies and inept local government.300bhp/ton said:
And let's face it, we have known for ages that it will have German engines and Austrian engineering. It still has a lot of British design and vision.
a "lot" of British design and vision. Ok, name one bit?
(and i don't mean Jim handing the guys at MS a picture of a classic defender and saying "just copy that".......... )
B10 said:
Really the 70s were over a few decades ago. Nissan's plant in Sunderland is one of their best. The other points are so general they do not warrant a reply/. So lets be positive about the UK or move.
Really? If you live in a country, you should embrace every facet and shouldn't suggest that improvements might be possible?If that was the case, there would be no elections, we could have a sitting government for life with no opposition.
300bhp/ton said:
Curious, but how do you feel about the new Defender from Land Rover? An India owned company, who will be building it in Slovakia.
What a disappointingly obtuse, obvious and inappropriate comment. Tata didn’t fund a campaign based on ‘British is best’ and other jingoistic twaddle designed to appeal to knuckle-dragging, insecure, cretins in order to serve the greed of a tax-dodging minority.
NGK210 said:
300bhp/ton said:
Curious, but how do you feel about the new Defender from Land Rover? An India owned company, who will be building it in Slovakia.
What a disappointingly obtuse, obvious and inappropriate comment. Tata didn’t fund a campaign based on ‘British is best’ and other jingoistic twaddle designed to appeal to knuckle-dragging, insecure, cretins in order to serve the greed of a tax-dodging minority.
Car_Nut said:
NGK210 said:
300bhp/ton said:
Curious, but how do you feel about the new Defender from Land Rover? An India owned company, who will be building it in Slovakia.
What a disappointingly obtuse, obvious and inappropriate comment. Tata didn’t fund a campaign based on ‘British is best’ and other jingoistic twaddle designed to appeal to knuckle-dragging, insecure, cretins in order to serve the greed of a tax-dodging minority.
It’s a business, INEOS will always make choices that they expect will result in the most profit being made. Old Jim obviously knows better than any of us on here and will have prophesied that the money he saves by operating in a pre existing factory in France will more than offset the impact it will have on sales to the portion of the market that prefers a U.K. built car. The Grenadier is undoubtedly a special case though, it’s story and styling are intrinsically linked to the old Defender and the U.K. as a consequence. The market will react more aggressively to this than if this were more of a generic euro box.
Hairymonster said:
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Apologies if I haven't followed this vehicle but how are they not getting sued by Land Rover? 
I believe it's because Land Rover never patented the design/shape of yer actual Land Rover 90 / 110
I guess that makes sense as I see the pictures and... well!Stuart70 said:
InitialDave said:
Condi said:
How can he build a plant here, with no idea what if any costs are involved with shipping parts from the EU to the UK and then completed cars back again? The EU is the obvious choice and always will be because even if they agree 0 tariffs, that can change with a change of the wind.
If he hadn't been a supporter of Brexit, with all the above being blatantly obvious beforehand, I would agree with you.But he was, and it was, so my attitude is somewhat one of he helped make this bed, and he should bloody well lie in it.
king off and building his factory somewhere he could make money.More fool the other idiots who voted for Brexit... believing him that there was a bright new manufacturing future in Britain.
ATG said:
Stuart70 said:
InitialDave said:
Condi said:
How can he build a plant here, with no idea what if any costs are involved with shipping parts from the EU to the UK and then completed cars back again? The EU is the obvious choice and always will be because even if they agree 0 tariffs, that can change with a change of the wind.
If he hadn't been a supporter of Brexit, with all the above being blatantly obvious beforehand, I would agree with you.But he was, and it was, so my attitude is somewhat one of he helped make this bed, and he should bloody well lie in it.
king off and building his factory somewhere he could make money.More fool the other idiots who voted for Brexit... believing him that there was a bright new manufacturing future in Britain.
Yes, in that sense, it's a good business decision, and the one I might well make myself - but I am not pro-Brexit, I wasn't pro-Brexit, and I did not support Brexit and so directly assist in said circumstances coming to pass.
It's the combination of the two factors together that's the issue. Supporting the Brexit guff, then not putting his manufacturing plant where his mouth is.
So all the "good business decision" shows, as per Stuart70's reply, is that his Brexit support was for his own ends.
Not surprised, just disappointed.
RacerMike said:
chelme said:
I'd be very interested to know whether the Company is HQ'd here in the UK. I have a suspicion, even the company is based abroad.
My theory is that the decision as to where to engineer the vehicle was based on the availability of skilled personel and knowledge, as it seems, was the decision as to where to assemble the vehicles.
Had the UK had a large, and importantly, a home grown vehicle manufacturing sector that proved itself over time to be innovative and able to evolve as part of a successful export led economy, I am certain the decision to engineer and assemble the vehicle in the UK would have come as second nature, despite Brexit.
The reality is that whilst the UK is the 8th largest manufacturer (in general, not just cars) in the world, a whopping 40% of that is foreign owned. The historical knowledge and experience of implementing this huge exercise has, since the 80's been eroded. We can speak of Nissan and Honda here in the UK for example, however all the conceptual thinking and implementation of how to manufacture and be efficient at this, not to mention new ideas being brought forward and to be innovative is highly likely to come from Japan and and even if great ideas came from British thinkers within the company, the owner of this knowledge is a company or person abroad.
And then there is the faith and confidence and I suspect this is lacking too for the historical reasons I merely touched on above.
Whilst in certain industries the UK may lead, this is one where we could learn a lot from others.
The question is have we, or will we? These questions have been asked for some time now going back the 80s, but I have not seen many new homegrown British brands enter the market...there is McLaren, which is good.
Its not as if I am taking pleasure in speaking of this either. However this is a recurring theme and I'd like to know why, out of interest.
Anyone who disagrees or takes a different view, I'm all for meaningful contributions.
Generally I think the 8,000 plus skilled engineers living here and working for JLR from both the UK and Abroad, the hundreds who work at Ricardo (who engineered the McLaren V8, and the 7 speed DCT for the Bugatti Veyron/Chiron), the thousands at McLaren developing world leading supercars (regardless of the companies marketing strategy), the hundreds at Crew engineer and testing Bentleys, the several hundred working at Williams Advanced Engineering as consultants to a lot of the words leading manufacturers on Vehicle Dynamics and EV/Hybrid systems, the hundreds at Lotus currently developing the Evija and the several hundred who just got fired by Dyson who were trying to find jobs again would fundamentally disagree with that statement. There's phenomenal talent in the UK for the nitty gritty and important bits that, judging by the number of Brits I encounter working throughout the European car industry in test and development, would back this up.My theory is that the decision as to where to engineer the vehicle was based on the availability of skilled personel and knowledge, as it seems, was the decision as to where to assemble the vehicles.
Had the UK had a large, and importantly, a home grown vehicle manufacturing sector that proved itself over time to be innovative and able to evolve as part of a successful export led economy, I am certain the decision to engineer and assemble the vehicle in the UK would have come as second nature, despite Brexit.
The reality is that whilst the UK is the 8th largest manufacturer (in general, not just cars) in the world, a whopping 40% of that is foreign owned. The historical knowledge and experience of implementing this huge exercise has, since the 80's been eroded. We can speak of Nissan and Honda here in the UK for example, however all the conceptual thinking and implementation of how to manufacture and be efficient at this, not to mention new ideas being brought forward and to be innovative is highly likely to come from Japan and and even if great ideas came from British thinkers within the company, the owner of this knowledge is a company or person abroad.
And then there is the faith and confidence and I suspect this is lacking too for the historical reasons I merely touched on above.
Whilst in certain industries the UK may lead, this is one where we could learn a lot from others.
The question is have we, or will we? These questions have been asked for some time now going back the 80s, but I have not seen many new homegrown British brands enter the market...there is McLaren, which is good.
Its not as if I am taking pleasure in speaking of this either. However this is a recurring theme and I'd like to know why, out of interest.
Anyone who disagrees or takes a different view, I'm all for meaningful contributions.
The UK is categorically really good engineering things well (usually against hilarious time constraints), but terrible at planning properly or managing to do things to process. It's why we're do good at making racing cars (big problems that seem almost impossible to fix but have no money constraint at all) and terrible at making reliable mass produced stuff (because everything ends up being done last minute without enough testing).
Personally, if I started a car company, it would have German's planning the whole thing, Brits doing the engineering and it would be made in Eastern Europe where people generally take pride in their work and use British or American talent to market the thing.
t at management and leadership due to the unique combination of cowardice, née politeness and looking down on others after even the smallest promotion in social statusInitialDave said:
ATG said:
Stuart70 said:
InitialDave said:
Condi said:
How can he build a plant here, with no idea what if any costs are involved with shipping parts from the EU to the UK and then completed cars back again? The EU is the obvious choice and always will be because even if they agree 0 tariffs, that can change with a change of the wind.
If he hadn't been a supporter of Brexit, with all the above being blatantly obvious beforehand, I would agree with you.But he was, and it was, so my attitude is somewhat one of he helped make this bed, and he should bloody well lie in it.
king off and building his factory somewhere he could make money.More fool the other idiots who voted for Brexit... believing him that there was a bright new manufacturing future in Britain.
Yes, in that sense, it's a good business decision, and the one I might well make myself - but I am not pro-Brexit, I wasn't pro-Brexit, and I did not support Brexit and so directly assist in said circumstances coming to pass.
It's the combination of the two factors together that's the issue. Supporting the Brexit guff, then not putting his manufacturing plant where his mouth is.
So all the "good business decision" shows, as per Stuart70's reply, is that his Brexit support was for his own ends.
Not surprised, just disappointed.
Being pro-Brexit does not, despite what so many remain supporters in this thread would have you believe, mean that you're anti International trade and business.
Ineos are very clear on this - that there is an emerging overcapacity in the automotive manufacturing base globally. This is enhanced and sped up by Covid.
So there's a ready made plant going for a song. Would you really want a firm to pass that up, instead building on a greenfield site a brand spanking new building "just because"?
Depending on their sales market targets, this could end up costing more per unit than locating in Wales. Offsetting the capital costs of the factory more than makes up for that, in a big way.
davea18h said:
There'll be a limited edition Ineos Merkel, or Ineos Macron and the fully optioned Barnier Barnstormer. Why isn't Swindon's massive Honda factory being considered? Soon to be vacated and would be great for the workers there already trained up in car manufacturing.
Has anyone from Honda asked Jim if he’d like the factory and some cash? Or more probably the factory wouldn’t be vacated and set up in anywhere near the same timescale? At the end of the day they are a successful business who are well used to playing governments off against each other so as to get the best deal and regardless of that they will do the deal that is best for the bottom line. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Obviously what has upset some is that they aligned political allegiances to a product and a person. The product hasn’t changed at all. It remains a lifestyle vehicle for the higher end consumer trading off the looks and image of a British icon. He clearly never aimed at the people who might be offended by where it’s assembled, hence the price tag, the engines etc.
It’ll still be a fun car and a good option for people who want something a bit quirky and out of step with the mainstream. We’ll just call it La Granade instead if the Welsh Assembly don’t respond as Jim expects and cough up a massive chunk of free money to try and hold onto the employment potential. And to be honest, with so much free money being hurled around at the moment and lots of it in the hands of provincial governments that has to be what Jim expects, the the WA to step up and give him a edge of that freshly printed lucre? He’s pretty much sitting there in a win win situation is he not?
ZX10R NIN said:
It makes good business sense & will reduce production costs all of which makes good business sense so I can't blame them for pursuing this.
I'm really not certain it would reduce per unit production costs... However, not having to amortise the immense capital costs of a new factory will improve overall business performance, especially at the volumes they're talking about!
ZX10R NIN said:
It makes good business sense & will reduce production costs all of which makes good business sense so I can't blame them for pursuing this.
As others have said, JR was vocally espousing Brexit (and funding the Leave campaign) when most other senior business figures were opposing it.It is not unreasonable to expect him to “back Britain” under those circumstances.
DonkeyApple said:
to helicopter direct from the boat or brothel
"Smithers, have you completed those charts I asked for? That analysis of my transport options?"
"Yes, Sir. They're in the cloud awaiting your review, Sir."
PS:
If I would have the uncommon fortune to become a billionaire potentate, I would be honoured, grateful even, to return and to pay tax in my home nation.
It's not like the UK has the most insufferable tax regime. And, to some extent, when one is the 850-pound gorilla of employment and tax, there are times when one is able to shape regional or national investment and / or ask for particular favours.
Imagine how one might personally influence the lives of young people by being able to walk among them and serve as role model. A bit naff, I know. But priceless.
So you save a couple hundred million quid by living far away in a tax haven? Big deal. Can't take it with you. But the opportunity to influence positive change at home and to endow countless legacies...?
Just my two cents.
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