RE: Ineos Grenadier may be built in France
Discussion
RacerMike said:
The general consumer doesn't have a clue which wheels are driven on their car, least of all it's weight. If you asked 100 people in the high street whether their car weighed 900kg or 2900kg you'd likely see a normal distribution akin to flipping a coin. Given how expensive it would be to engineer a modern car that was 'lightweight' there's literally no motivation there. It would not result in greater profits for a company to make their car lightweight.
Great example is Lotus. Renowned for lightness being their USP....and yet are you actually aware what V6 Exige weighs? And would it actually be instrumental in your decision if you were to buy one? Or would handling balance, residules and interior quality be more important?
1100kg.Great example is Lotus. Renowned for lightness being their USP....and yet are you actually aware what V6 Exige weighs? And would it actually be instrumental in your decision if you were to buy one? Or would handling balance, residules and interior quality be more important?
Max_Torque said:
The Grenadier has as far as i can tell zero UK development spend. I don't any UK firm or personel working on it's development in the UK.
I think you are correct. The engineering is/was done by Magna Steyr in Austria. And Ineos' HQ has been in Lausanne, Switzerland for the last ten years. It's as British as Mercedes-Benz or Renault.Ares said:
Tim bo said:
RacerMike said:
Either way, incredible how quickly a leopard can change its spots when the wind changes. On minute he's voting to leave the EU, spouting how incredible the UK is and how we can go it alone....the next he's hiring German engineers and building cars in France. Nice one.
Indeed. Smacks of James Dyson.Beyond that, his logic is raw common sense.
suffolk009 said:
It is noteworthy that a British based company is about to find it very much harder to employ, say, a French, German or Italian engineer in the UK to design a new car. Brexit, again.
Are they? I've never found it difficult to work in a decent number of non-EU nations, nor have we found it difficult to employ a skilled worker in the UK from outside the EU. With very few exceptions, pretty much every nation on earth is incredibly willing to compete for highly skilled foreign workers.
Ares said:
Aside from he supported Brexit (and being the richest guy in GB, and being British, and being self-made, and having most of his business interests in Britain), this isn't immediately anything to do with Brexit.
But the more you and every loony-left commentator/Brexiteer/Lefty press criticise him and his every move, the more he will wave too fingers at our shores. And who could blame him.
Brexit will be damaging in some degree to our country....but nothing like as damaging as blind hatred and ignorance so rife within our population.
So you're blaming Remain voters for not being nicer to the Brexit voters. That's mad.But the more you and every loony-left commentator/Brexiteer/Lefty press criticise him and his every move, the more he will wave too fingers at our shores. And who could blame him.
Brexit will be damaging in some degree to our country....but nothing like as damaging as blind hatred and ignorance so rife within our population.
maffski said:
French labour laws will be why they are looking at it. As long as they are willing to keep it going with at least some of the existing staff then Daimler are required to sell them the site at almost any price.
So they get a larger, better equipped, factory that's only a couple of hundred miles from their engine supplier. Not only that, but they get it quicker.
But Ineos will also have to take on French employment laws for their own assembly staff.So they get a larger, better equipped, factory that's only a couple of hundred miles from their engine supplier. Not only that, but they get it quicker.
Stuart70 said:
Ares said:
....as opposed to Britain which is so good at manufacturing with it's world beating productivity, helpful unions, sloth-like regulatory bodies and inept local government.
“World beating” - that is now a synonym for “s
te that doesn’t work”. Isn’t it? Max_Torque said:
The new Defender was 95% engineered in the UK, to the tune of around £250million in direct costs, and probably another 50 to 80 million in wages. The only overseas spend was on in-territory testing. It supports people like me directly!
The Grenadier has as far as i can tell zero UK development spend. I don't any UK firm or personel working on it's development in the UK.
Exactly. The Grenadier has as far as i can tell zero UK development spend. I don't any UK firm or personel working on it's development in the UK.
Supporting Max Torque by Buying “British” is a plus point at car buying time. Supporting Le Torque Maxiff not so much. . .
TriumphStag3.0V8 said:
maffski said:
French labour laws will be why they are looking at it. As long as they are willing to keep it going with at least some of the existing staff then Daimler are required to sell them the site at almost any price.
So they get a larger, better equipped, factory that's only a couple of hundred miles from their engine supplier. Not only that, but they get it quicker.
Hmmmm, so basically a ready made factory and workforce........ for basically nothing, vs having to start from scratch in a greenfield site......So they get a larger, better equipped, factory that's only a couple of hundred miles from their engine supplier. Not only that, but they get it quicker.
Yes, this is definitely a Brexit based decision. Definitely.
Covid-19....wouldn't have happened if Brexit had been cancelled.
Current wet weather? Brexit.
Ennio Morricone's deaths? Brexit.
emlynbeagler said:
‘Grenadier’ is also a French word, meaning ‘pomegranate’. Red fruit, rather than red herring.
I think you may be confusing with "grenade" which is a fruit called pomegranate in English.The tree bearing those fruits is called a "Grenadier"
A "grenadier" is also a soldier who was charged of throwing hand grenades
Ares said:
Stuart70 said:
Ares said:
....as opposed to Britain which is so good at manufacturing with it's world beating productivity, helpful unions, sloth-like regulatory bodies and inept local government.
“World beating” - that is now a synonym for “ste that doesn’t work”. Isn’t it? Ares said:
Stuart70 said:
Ares said:
....as opposed to Britain which is so good at manufacturing with it's world beating productivity, helpful unions, sloth-like regulatory bodies and inept local government.
“World beating” - that is now a synonym for “ste that doesn’t work”. Isn’t it? Edited by chelme on Wednesday 8th July 15:37
braddo said:
Ares said:
Aside from he supported Brexit (and being the richest guy in GB, and being British, and being self-made, and having most of his business interests in Britain), this isn't immediately anything to do with Brexit.
But the more you and every loony-left commentator/Brexiteer/Lefty press criticise him and his every move, the more he will wave too fingers at our shores. And who could blame him.
Brexit will be damaging in some degree to our country....but nothing like as damaging as blind hatred and ignorance so rife within our population.
Only a small minority (less than 15%) of INEOS's business is in the UK. And all the profit of the group goes to a chap who resides in Monaco. How much benefit do you really think INEOS brings to the UK?But the more you and every loony-left commentator/Brexiteer/Lefty press criticise him and his every move, the more he will wave too fingers at our shores. And who could blame him.
Brexit will be damaging in some degree to our country....but nothing like as damaging as blind hatred and ignorance so rife within our population.
Over 10,000 employees (out of global head count of 22,000), no transfer pricing.
Total Corporation tax paid 2019 £278m.
And all of the profit does not go to Sir Jim.
B10 said:
Ares said:
W12AAM said:
And if it does go to France...I hope he will be faced with French working practices of a short week, long holidays, bad workmanship & strikes and other industrial rest, which will be karma for not building it in the UK !
....as opposed to Britain which is so good at manufacturing with it's world beating productivity, helpful unions, sloth-like regulatory bodies and inept local government.suffolk009 said:
Ares said:
Aside from he supported Brexit (and being the richest guy in GB, and being British, and being self-made, and having most of his business interests in Britain), this isn't immediately anything to do with Brexit.
But the more you and every loony-left commentator/Brexiteer/Lefty press criticise him and his every move, the more he will wave too fingers at our shores. And who could blame him.
Brexit will be damaging in some degree to our country....but nothing like as damaging as blind hatred and ignorance so rife within our population.
So you're blaming Remain voters for not being nicer to the Brexit voters. That's mad.But the more you and every loony-left commentator/Brexiteer/Lefty press criticise him and his every move, the more he will wave too fingers at our shores. And who could blame him.
Brexit will be damaging in some degree to our country....but nothing like as damaging as blind hatred and ignorance so rife within our population.
Sorry, but it’s depressing that this anachronism has created so much traffic on PH.
It will fail, eventually it’ll be known as Ratcliffe’s Folly.
The emergency services, NGOs, etc, will not buy it because it won’t benchmark against Toyotas for reliability and, therefore, will have pitiful ROI.
Americans won’t buy it because genuine off-roadists don’t trust BMW reliability and there’s plenty of existing, cheaper fit-for-purpose choice.
And fashionistas won’t buy it because ‘we don’t buy fakes, sweety’.
End of.
It will fail, eventually it’ll be known as Ratcliffe’s Folly.
The emergency services, NGOs, etc, will not buy it because it won’t benchmark against Toyotas for reliability and, therefore, will have pitiful ROI.
Americans won’t buy it because genuine off-roadists don’t trust BMW reliability and there’s plenty of existing, cheaper fit-for-purpose choice.
And fashionistas won’t buy it because ‘we don’t buy fakes, sweety’.
End of.
Sway said:
Ares said:
Stuart70 said:
Ares said:
....as opposed to Britain which is so good at manufacturing with it's world beating productivity, helpful unions, sloth-like regulatory bodies and inept local government.
“World beating” - that is now a synonym for “ste that doesn’t work”. Isn’t it? Ares said:
Sway said:
Ares said:
Stuart70 said:
Ares said:
....as opposed to Britain which is so good at manufacturing with it's world beating productivity, helpful unions, sloth-like regulatory bodies and inept local government.
“World beating” - that is now a synonym for “ste that doesn’t work”. Isn’t it? You don't get to be the 8th largest manufacturer on the planet as a small, expensive country without being damned good at what we do.
DonkeyApple said:
It’s the nature of the beast. There are of course anomalies but to create such intense wealth requires the kind of contempt and avarice that prevents such a person from ever appreciating just how low our tax regime is here and how irrelevant paying a few more pennies on the pound is.
In addition to that it is also extremely common for them to hold their fellow countrymen of the same birth background as them in total contempt. They climbed over them and exploited them to get out and get where they are and they aren’t going to stop because these people now worship them as gods.
What I don’t understand is how so many Britons appear so oblivious to the nature of the beast.
However, re ‘giving it back’ it is a perfectly fair argument to question just how much you should ‘give back’ to a nation that you happened to randomly be born into and have had no say over the matter? He probably paid huge amounts in tax prior to offshoring himself, almost certainly more than his own fair share.
As an adult we are free to choose where we live and where we pay tax. He has chosen a different country. I believe you have chosen a different country. We are all free to choose a different country that fits who we are better if the random one we were born in doesn’t quite fit. Should we then remain beholden for ever to that country? Somewhere there is a cut off.
The problem, which is also the huge advanatage to us in the UK, is that if you are an extremely wealthy Brit you invariably do not want your children to be educated outside of the British system and lose all the credibility and status that you crave through insecurity that the English public school system brings you. No one is going to be sitting at a table in Monaco next to competitors who all have their children at Marlborough, Radley or if a bit thick, Harrow and Eton (
). You have no choice. You also have the problem that your wife will not tolerate not owning property in London nor being able to shop in London. Especially if she is not English. It would be social humiliation to be sitting in Monaco with the other wives and to not be discussing the size of your house or street name in London or to be able to join them on the shopping adventure. Then there is the shooting and fishing. You don’t shoot? Then you still live on the council estate you were born on. It’s essential that you have all the kit and pay for all the right days. Which outside of a few third world corners of the planet are all found in the UK.
The truth is that we could run the UK like Hotel California for tax purposes as few ever truly leave and the social stigma of not having your children at the right schools and buying their connections to the right sort, so embarrassment of your wife not being able to go shopping with the girls and you not being able to go to the polo, go shooting or attend anynof the vital global social events that the UK hosts morenof every year than any other country would outweigh any tax savings from surrendering ones domicile.
It’s one of the great shames here as it would be great for the UK and as well as keeping people paying tax here long after they need to or should be obliged to, it would draw in many of the same types of people from all over the world. But for it to happen you would need to drop the 50% rate down to below 20% at a certain threshold. And do we think that would be a vote winner among the people who want these individuals to pay tax here?
Worth reading more than once. Thanks for that.In addition to that it is also extremely common for them to hold their fellow countrymen of the same birth background as them in total contempt. They climbed over them and exploited them to get out and get where they are and they aren’t going to stop because these people now worship them as gods.
What I don’t understand is how so many Britons appear so oblivious to the nature of the beast.
However, re ‘giving it back’ it is a perfectly fair argument to question just how much you should ‘give back’ to a nation that you happened to randomly be born into and have had no say over the matter? He probably paid huge amounts in tax prior to offshoring himself, almost certainly more than his own fair share.
As an adult we are free to choose where we live and where we pay tax. He has chosen a different country. I believe you have chosen a different country. We are all free to choose a different country that fits who we are better if the random one we were born in doesn’t quite fit. Should we then remain beholden for ever to that country? Somewhere there is a cut off.
The problem, which is also the huge advanatage to us in the UK, is that if you are an extremely wealthy Brit you invariably do not want your children to be educated outside of the British system and lose all the credibility and status that you crave through insecurity that the English public school system brings you. No one is going to be sitting at a table in Monaco next to competitors who all have their children at Marlborough, Radley or if a bit thick, Harrow and Eton (
). You have no choice. You also have the problem that your wife will not tolerate not owning property in London nor being able to shop in London. Especially if she is not English. It would be social humiliation to be sitting in Monaco with the other wives and to not be discussing the size of your house or street name in London or to be able to join them on the shopping adventure. Then there is the shooting and fishing. You don’t shoot? Then you still live on the council estate you were born on. It’s essential that you have all the kit and pay for all the right days. Which outside of a few third world corners of the planet are all found in the UK. The truth is that we could run the UK like Hotel California for tax purposes as few ever truly leave and the social stigma of not having your children at the right schools and buying their connections to the right sort, so embarrassment of your wife not being able to go shopping with the girls and you not being able to go to the polo, go shooting or attend anynof the vital global social events that the UK hosts morenof every year than any other country would outweigh any tax savings from surrendering ones domicile.
It’s one of the great shames here as it would be great for the UK and as well as keeping people paying tax here long after they need to or should be obliged to, it would draw in many of the same types of people from all over the world. But for it to happen you would need to drop the 50% rate down to below 20% at a certain threshold. And do we think that would be a vote winner among the people who want these individuals to pay tax here?
Now that we're all more globalised than ever, some of the global neighbours should be very interested indeed to participate in, and to benefit from, the types of cultural soft power that only the UK can provide.
Is it a vote winner, the liberalisation of tax policy to attract high net-worth individuals? Probably not.
But that might change if said policy could be linked to improved conditions overall. I wouldn't necessarily promise £350 million per week to the NHS, but you know what I mean.
I wasn't aware that there was a 50 percent personal tax rate in the UK. Also, and particularly in the case of capital gains, the effective tax rate, I would imagine, can be significantly lower.
sisu said:
how out of step it is and why they never sell to anyone other than white trash.
Well tie me to an ant hill and smother my ears with jelly. Dang!There was a lot to agree with, what you wrote. But I'm sorry to say that the above quotation is not part of that. The above quotation is not even close.
Households both up and down the demographic scale purchase pickup trucks. And folks use them for all the reasons shown in the adverts. People in this country are weekend warriors.
F-150 revenue, by itself, is greater than revenue earned by Nike, Coca-Cola, Starbucks, Tesla, MasterCard, Netflix, VISA, Uber, Twitter and many others. THAT'S how not out-of-step F-150 is. And F-150 is but one choice in a sea of full-sized and mid-sized pickup trucks.
Your quote is so off-piste, it reminds me of another thing that folks do with pickup trucks: barbecue.
"Yeah we, too, put meat on the grill," a visiting Briton will say.
But proper barbecue has nothing to do with putting meat on a grill over direct flame for nine minutes. Try fourteen hours of smoke and no direct flame. THAT'S barbecue. Don't forget the dry rub and / or overnight marinade.
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