RE: Ineos Grenadier may be built in France
Discussion
unsprung said:
Worth reading more than once. Thanks for that.
Now that we're all more globalised than ever, some of the global neighbours should be very interested indeed to participate in, and to benefit from, the types of cultural soft power that only the UK can provide.
Is it a vote winner, the liberalisation of tax policy to attract high net-worth individuals? Probably not.
But that might change if said policy could be linked to improved conditions overall. I wouldn't necessarily promise £350 million per week to the NHS, but you know what I mean.
I wasn't aware that there was a 50 percent personal tax rate in the UK. Also, and particularly in the case of capital gains, the effective tax rate, I would imagine, can be significantly lower.
We did have that soft power a few years ago; in fact, we were statistically the *most* influential country in the EU (in terms of getting what we wanted). But now? It is hard for me to see us maintaining that position.Now that we're all more globalised than ever, some of the global neighbours should be very interested indeed to participate in, and to benefit from, the types of cultural soft power that only the UK can provide.
Is it a vote winner, the liberalisation of tax policy to attract high net-worth individuals? Probably not.
But that might change if said policy could be linked to improved conditions overall. I wouldn't necessarily promise £350 million per week to the NHS, but you know what I mean.
I wasn't aware that there was a 50 percent personal tax rate in the UK. Also, and particularly in the case of capital gains, the effective tax rate, I would imagine, can be significantly lower.
Sway said:
Come over to the bbq thread - we're getting good...
I'd also point out last year's KCBS champions were from the UK...
I'd also point out last year's KCBS champions were from the UK...
. 
Kansas City, eh? Well, folks in the Carolinas, Memphis, and Texas might have something to say about that.
You can bet your britches: Those barbecue folks get up to all kinds of work, play, and shenanigans in their pickup trucks.
skwdenyer said:
unsprung said:
Worth reading more than once. Thanks for that.
Now that we're all more globalised than ever, some of the global neighbours should be very interested indeed to participate in, and to benefit from, the types of cultural soft power that only the UK can provide.
Is it a vote winner, the liberalisation of tax policy to attract high net-worth individuals? Probably not.
But that might change if said policy could be linked to improved conditions overall. I wouldn't necessarily promise £350 million per week to the NHS, but you know what I mean.
I wasn't aware that there was a 50 percent personal tax rate in the UK. Also, and particularly in the case of capital gains, the effective tax rate, I would imagine, can be significantly lower.
We did have that soft power a few years ago; in fact, we were statistically the *most* influential country in the EU (in terms of getting what we wanted). But now? It is hard for me to see us maintaining that position.Now that we're all more globalised than ever, some of the global neighbours should be very interested indeed to participate in, and to benefit from, the types of cultural soft power that only the UK can provide.
Is it a vote winner, the liberalisation of tax policy to attract high net-worth individuals? Probably not.
But that might change if said policy could be linked to improved conditions overall. I wouldn't necessarily promise £350 million per week to the NHS, but you know what I mean.
I wasn't aware that there was a 50 percent personal tax rate in the UK. Also, and particularly in the case of capital gains, the effective tax rate, I would imagine, can be significantly lower.
citizensm1th said:
Sway said:
We've bounced between 1st and 2nd Globally in the soft power index every year since we voted to leave the EU.
Third this year with the USA and Germany above ushttps://softpower30.com/
No mention of 2020 results.
Sway said:
citizensm1th said:
Sway said:
We've bounced between 1st and 2nd Globally in the soft power index every year since we voted to leave the EU.
Third this year with the USA and Germany above ushttps://softpower30.com/
No mention of 2020 results.
Ares said:
B10 said:
Ares said:
W12AAM said:
And if it does go to France...I hope he will be faced with French working practices of a short week, long holidays, bad workmanship & strikes and other industrial rest, which will be karma for not building it in the UK !
....as opposed to Britain which is so good at manufacturing with it's world beating productivity, helpful unions, sloth-like regulatory bodies and inept local government.Unions are fairly powerless these days and many businesses don't have staff who are members. Yes productivity is an issue but that is a generalisation across many industries and methods of measurement. In the automotive world our productivity is very good; look up the Nissan plant for example. Local government is facing incredible cuts from the government and that is not helping and I am niot sure how that is directly effecting manufacturing except planning. However planning law comes for the government. Regulatory bodies by their nature are, in my experience, slow due to the diligence that is needed to set regulations especially those that affect safety. The UK has been responsible for many of the IEC standards that cover the world, ISO9000 for example. We are actually quite good at it. Now with Brexit we will have the ridiculous pointless exercise of doing the UK versions of the CE mark. Part of our business makes chemicals the effects of a UK version REACH are potentially terrible. Yet we have no details of either
citizensm1th said:
Sway said:
citizensm1th said:
Sway said:
We've bounced between 1st and 2nd Globally in the soft power index every year since we voted to leave the EU.
Third this year with the USA and Germany above ushttps://softpower30.com/
No mention of 2020 results.
B10 said:
Your comments were pervasive of the typical sarcastic comments that hark back to the 70s. Not sure how many manufacturing clients you have, what sectors etc..
Unions are fairly powerless these days and many businesses don't have staff who are members. Yes productivity is an issue but that is a generalisation across many industries and methods of measurement. In the automotive world our productivity is very good; look up the Nissan plant for example. Local government is facing incredible cuts from the government and that is not helping and I am niot sure how that is directly effecting manufacturing except planning. However planning law comes for the government. Regulatory bodies by their nature are, in my experience, slow due to the diligence that is needed to set regulations especially those that affect safety. The UK has been responsible for many of the IEC standards that cover the world, ISO9000 for example. We are actually quite good at it. Now with Brexit we will have the ridiculous pointless exercise of doing the UK versions of the CE mark. Part of our business makes chemicals the effects of a UK version REACH are potentially terrible. Yet we have no details of either
In short, what we have done in the UK is work around the unions and focussed on manufacturing that is more high tech and less reliant on blue collar armies. This suits the UK as it is easy to draw in higher skilled workers from outside the UK where there are not enough domestically. The UK is a much easier place for overseas white collar workers to relocate their families to than most other countries. We also have a very powerful service and finance sector to support this type of manufacturing. Unions are fairly powerless these days and many businesses don't have staff who are members. Yes productivity is an issue but that is a generalisation across many industries and methods of measurement. In the automotive world our productivity is very good; look up the Nissan plant for example. Local government is facing incredible cuts from the government and that is not helping and I am niot sure how that is directly effecting manufacturing except planning. However planning law comes for the government. Regulatory bodies by their nature are, in my experience, slow due to the diligence that is needed to set regulations especially those that affect safety. The UK has been responsible for many of the IEC standards that cover the world, ISO9000 for example. We are actually quite good at it. Now with Brexit we will have the ridiculous pointless exercise of doing the UK versions of the CE mark. Part of our business makes chemicals the effects of a UK version REACH are potentially terrible. Yet we have no details of either
All the high head count manufacturing we have outsourced to the third world where they wear the labour risk.
When people on the shop floor in the UK talk about the demaisenin manufacturing what they actually are talking about is the shift from high labour, low tech to low labour high tech.
We still manufacture an awful lot and we are among the best where we do but every business owner in the UK knows that it is essential to avoid huge labour forces and unionisation where possible.
La Grenade takes this to extremes in that they haven’t even imported the key labour but look to locating the manufacturing where it is. From a parochial perspective it is a great shame if they do this as it’s claim to be ‘British’ was already very tenuous but potential UK customers could at least fool themselves. As it stands now it’s just a foreign gimmick that rips off a big slice of British motoring heritage. And that will put off a significant number of non urban UK customers.
B10 said:
Ares said:
B10 said:
Ares said:
W12AAM said:
And if it does go to France...I hope he will be faced with French working practices of a short week, long holidays, bad workmanship & strikes and other industrial rest, which will be karma for not building it in the UK !
....as opposed to Britain which is so good at manufacturing with it's world beating productivity, helpful unions, sloth-like regulatory bodies and inept local government.Unions are fairly powerless these days and many businesses don't have staff who are members. Yes productivity is an issue but that is a generalisation across many industries and methods of measurement. In the automotive world our productivity is very good; look up the Nissan plant for example. Local government is facing incredible cuts from the government and that is not helping and I am niot sure how that is directly effecting manufacturing except planning. However planning law comes for the government. Regulatory bodies by their nature are, in my experience, slow due to the diligence that is needed to set regulations especially those that affect safety. The UK has been responsible for many of the IEC standards that cover the world, ISO9000 for example. We are actually quite good at it. Now with Brexit we will have the ridiculous pointless exercise of doing the UK versions of the CE mark. Part of our business makes chemicals the effects of a UK version REACH are potentially terrible. Yet we have no details of either
The vast majority of my clients cite productivity as being their biggest issues, with union power usually the second (and impacts the first as they seek to get ever further down continuous improvement/automation. Examples like Nissan are good because they are not really British from a leadership perspective. Unique relationships with Unions, greenfield location where people wanted to work and were grateful to work. One of my Automotive (OEM component) took a member of Nissan's SLT in attempt to recreate the culture. With an existing workforce, the hurdles he faced were catastrophic and blocked at every step by the embedded union. He moved more than half his production to Poland last year to achieve his objectives.
Govt red tape is another killer, two clients moved substantial operations away from the UK last year as they could not get approval for site expansion after 3 and 5 years of trying, despite both locations being brownfield. Both had streamlined approval and huge incentives to relocate elsewhere.
Another partly unconnected hurdle, a Pharma client had development plans frozen pending an EU review back in late 2018/early 2019. They have instead developed a smaller site in Romania, ironically with EU financial support.
DonkeyApple said:
In short, what we have done in the UK is work around the unions and focussed on manufacturing that is more high tech and less reliant on blue collar armies. This suits the UK as it is easy to draw in higher skilled workers from outside the UK where there are not enough domestically. The UK is a much easier place for overseas white collar workers to relocate their families to than most other countries. We also have a very powerful service and finance sector to support this type of manufacturing.
All the high head count manufacturing we have outsourced to the third world where they wear the labour risk.
When people on the shop floor in the UK talk about the demaisenin manufacturing what they actually are talking about is the shift from high labour, low tech to low labour high tech.
We still manufacture an awful lot and we are among the best where we do but every business owner in the UK knows that it is essential to avoid huge labour forces and unionisation where possible.
Agree. All the high head count manufacturing we have outsourced to the third world where they wear the labour risk.
When people on the shop floor in the UK talk about the demaisenin manufacturing what they actually are talking about is the shift from high labour, low tech to low labour high tech.
We still manufacture an awful lot and we are among the best where we do but every business owner in the UK knows that it is essential to avoid huge labour forces and unionisation where possible.
unsprung said:
sisu said:
how out of step it is and why they never sell to anyone other than white trash.
Well tie me to an ant hill and smother my ears with jelly. Dang!There was a lot to agree with, what you wrote. But I'm sorry to say that the above quotation is not part of that. The above quotation is not even close.
Households both up and down the demographic scale purchase pickup trucks. And folks use them for all the reasons shown in the adverts.
But full/mid sized pickups don't sell very well in Asia, Africa, India, Australasia or UK/Europe. They are about, but it takes a certain type of person to use a mid/full size American pickup in the countries outside of North America.
Much like Harley Davidsons it is pitched at the image that the owner wants to project, not on its merits as a tool.
As with this Ineos thing, they are making the same mistake Harley does, you wrap yourself in a flag and that is great if you are using that patriotism or aspect of that country, Citroen/Saab Owners play on that.
But all the other people are ignored.
Ares said:
UK HQ here, 2019 stated at 26% of businesses in UK (making UK the largest country), despite only 12.3% of trade being with UK.
Over 10,000 employees (out of global head count of 22,000), no transfer pricing.
Total Corporation tax paid 2019 £278m.
And all of the profit does not go to Sir Jim.
Perhaps you could update their Wikepedia page if you work for INEOS. Over 10,000 employees (out of global head count of 22,000), no transfer pricing.
Total Corporation tax paid 2019 £278m.
And all of the profit does not go to Sir Jim.
Sway said:
citizensm1th said:
Sway said:
citizensm1th said:
Sway said:
We've bounced between 1st and 2nd Globally in the soft power index every year since we voted to leave the EU.
Third this year with the USA and Germany above ushttps://softpower30.com/
No mention of 2020 results.
Brand finance puts us third as well for 2020
The point I am making is soft power is subjective there is no way to accurately measure how people feel about a country.
P. S. Two one to me on surveys saying Britain is third for 2020
Ares said:
B10 said:
Ares said:
B10 said:
Ares said:
W12AAM said:
And if it does go to France...I hope he will be faced with French working practices of a short week, long holidays, bad workmanship & strikes and other industrial rest, which will be karma for not building it in the UK !
....as opposed to Britain which is so good at manufacturing with it's world beating productivity, helpful unions, sloth-like regulatory bodies and inept local government.Unions are fairly powerless these days and many businesses don't have staff who are members. Yes productivity is an issue but that is a generalisation across many industries and methods of measurement. In the automotive world our productivity is very good; look up the Nissan plant for example. Local government is facing incredible cuts from the government and that is not helping and I am niot sure how that is directly effecting manufacturing except planning. However planning law comes for the government. Regulatory bodies by their nature are, in my experience, slow due to the diligence that is needed to set regulations especially those that affect safety. The UK has been responsible for many of the IEC standards that cover the world, ISO9000 for example. We are actually quite good at it. Now with Brexit we will have the ridiculous pointless exercise of doing the UK versions of the CE mark. Part of our business makes chemicals the effects of a UK version REACH are potentially terrible. Yet we have no details of either
The vast majority of my clients cite productivity as being their biggest issues, with union power usually the second (and impacts the first as they seek to get ever further down continuous improvement/automation. Examples like Nissan are good because they are not really British from a leadership perspective. Unique relationships with Unions, greenfield location where people wanted to work and were grateful to work. One of my Automotive (OEM component) took a member of Nissan's SLT in attempt to recreate the culture. With an existing workforce, the hurdles he faced were catastrophic and blocked at every step by the embedded union. He moved more than half his production to Poland last year to achieve his objectives.
Govt red tape is another killer, two clients moved substantial operations away from the UK last year as they could not get approval for site expansion after 3 and 5 years of trying, despite both locations being brownfield. Both had streamlined approval and huge incentives to relocate elsewhere.
Another partly unconnected hurdle, a Pharma client had development plans frozen pending an EU review back in late 2018/early 2019. They have instead developed a smaller site in Romania, ironically with EU financial support.
Unknown_User said:
I fully expect Dom Cum/Boris & chums to put this Ineos upstart in their place and demand they build their cars in Britain! Ineos need Britain more than Britain needs Ineos.
And if Ineos refuse to build their cars here then Dom Cum/Boris & chums will make Ineos pay dearly.
Surely Dom would want to build cars in Russia while Boris would just say "f**k business" again?And if Ineos refuse to build their cars here then Dom Cum/Boris & chums will make Ineos pay dearly.
I see the MB (manufacturers of the competing G Wagen) connection through the development team who are former MB personnel but will they put up with a customer using BMW engines?
B10 said:
Fair enough. I have only worked in sub £100m companies. Current and past companies have seen greater than 15% growth per annum over 12 years. never had the joy of unions. Also not had much interference from government. The last company I worked for was owned by PE and then sold to a foreign trade buyer. Sadly they have made a fist of it and reversed the sales growth by not investing. Ironically it is the UK arm that is mostly responsible for the malaise. Sadly there are no longer any UK conglomerates in our sector anymore as they have been broken up and flogged off. You mention leadership and that is very important and undervalued. It takes passion for the business, taking risks, long term strategy and looking after the staff. Sadly many UK companies have not had that, especially when it comes to succession after the company founders.
UK Manufacturing was given a massive boost by the exchange rate shift in 2016 - most saw c30% growth as their products became comparatively cheaper whilst their margin grew. Without that, a decade of growth would still have been good, but not exceptional....and my clients range from under £10m to £multi-bn
Ares said:
B10 said:
Fair enough. I have only worked in sub £100m companies. Current and past companies have seen greater than 15% growth per annum over 12 years. never had the joy of unions. Also not had much interference from government. The last company I worked for was owned by PE and then sold to a foreign trade buyer. Sadly they have made a fist of it and reversed the sales growth by not investing. Ironically it is the UK arm that is mostly responsible for the malaise. Sadly there are no longer any UK conglomerates in our sector anymore as they have been broken up and flogged off. You mention leadership and that is very important and undervalued. It takes passion for the business, taking risks, long term strategy and looking after the staff. Sadly many UK companies have not had that, especially when it comes to succession after the company founders.
UK Manufacturing was given a massive boost by the exchange rate shift in 2016 - most saw c30% growth as their products became comparatively cheaper whilst their margin grew. Without that, a decade of growth would still have been good, but not exceptional....and my clients range from under £10m to £multi-bn
What area do you consult in by the way?
Not sure I want BMW engines either! Bits of plastic in the inlet manifold etc
I reckon Steyr are going to build at least 6-10,000 a year so who needs a dedicated manufacturing plant especially if your market reputation is unknown. Dare I say France is smoke and mirrors to move away from a commitment!
I reckon Steyr are going to build at least 6-10,000 a year so who needs a dedicated manufacturing plant especially if your market reputation is unknown. Dare I say France is smoke and mirrors to move away from a commitment!
Edited by Veg on Thursday 9th July 21:28
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