RE: Jeep unveils 450hp Rubicon 392 Concept

RE: Jeep unveils 450hp Rubicon 392 Concept

Author
Discussion

dandare

957 posts

253 months

Tuesday 14th July 2020
quotequote all
Looks great, but I don't see the point of such a powerful engine.

It would be infuriating accellerating hard, and then having to brake really hard for corners to avoid skipping and hopping around or rolling. A recipe for vomiting passengers. It can probably be hosed down inside, though.

A couple of hundred horsepower is plenty for off-roading and driving around on tarmac.


DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Tuesday 14th July 2020
quotequote all
dandare said:
Looks great, but I don't see the point of such a powerful engine.

It would be infuriating accellerating hard, and then having to brake really hard for corners to avoid skipping and hopping around or rolling. A recipe for vomiting passengers. It can probably be hosed down inside, though.

A couple of hundred horsepower is plenty for off-roading and driving around on tarmac.
What you find infuriating, others will find entertaining. As you point out the majority will always opt for the cheaper, more appropriate engine option but a few will always see the fun from a totally inappropriate engine choice.

travisc

24 posts

46 months

Tuesday 14th July 2020
quotequote all
But for overtaking in a Straight line it’s fantastic. If it is like an SRT Jeep it may even corner well

blackrabbit

939 posts

44 months

Tuesday 14th July 2020
quotequote all
Love this and hope its put into production.

The spinner of plates

17,649 posts

199 months

Tuesday 14th July 2020
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
Likely to be an ansolute hoot but they need to build this in France if they want anyone to take them seriously.
hehe

biggbn

22,818 posts

219 months

Tuesday 14th July 2020
quotequote all
alpinab3 said:
I think the they should fit the 5.7. It is more than enough power. The 6.4 is overkill.
More than enough is sometimes just enough. Enough? Rarely so.

All joking aside the older wranglers were a handful with the 180hp straight six, 60 in about 8 seconds and sideways anytime it rained!!

The spinner of plates

17,649 posts

199 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
biggbn said:
More than enough is sometimes just enough. Enough? Rarely so.

All joking aside the older wranglers were a handful with the 180hp straight six, 60 in about 8 seconds and sideways anytime it rained!!
Agreed! Like riding a powerful but young horse - fun but often scary!

J4CKO

41,287 posts

199 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
I always feel like they will create a car that can accelerate very rapidly to speeds the rest of it has no business at, like when an LS finds its way into a Defender.

May well be fine, just doesnt look it.

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
I always feel like they will create a car that can accelerate very rapidly to speeds the rest of it has no business at, like when an LS finds its way into a Defender.

May well be fine, just doesnt look it.
It will. It’ll be terrifying. You wouldn’t buy one for your wife or mother. It’s a silly toy that you’d buy for yourselfnor the mother in law.

58ap

154 posts

181 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
It will. It’ll be terrifying. You wouldn’t buy one for your wife or mother. It’s a silly toy that you’d buy for yourselfnor the mother in law.
I spent ages looking at logistics of LS3 Defender. I spoke to the providers and engineers. I did not feel brave enough to press the trigger on the project. I priced it at around 40 grand excluding a donor car, but I was concerned that the execution would be flawed. Half shafts ( whatever they are) were a risk. I moved on.

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
58ap said:
I spent ages looking at logistics of LS3 Defender. I spoke to the providers and engineers. I did not feel brave enough to press the trigger on the project. I priced it at around 40 grand excluding a donor car, but I was concerned that the execution would be flawed. Half shafts ( whatever they are) were a risk. I moved on.
Yup. It’s something I have looked at in depth and chosen not to go with. It’s a superb engine and today you can get it with the 6 speed auto and a fully mapable TCU. The problem is the amount you need to spend to handle the torque. Even the updated drivetrain parts from Ashcroft are going to struggle to last long. And even if you completely sort the drivetrain the amount of twist on the chassis is quite spectacular.

This is where the Americans have the advantage as it’s much easier to source what’s needed to handle stupid power.

An old Defender built properly to be able to use the power an LS3 creates really wouldn’t have much Defender under the skin.

58ap

154 posts

181 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. It’s something I have looked at in depth and chosen not to go with. It’s a superb engine and today you can get it with the 6 speed auto and a fully mapable TCU. The problem is the amount you need to spend to handle the torque. Even the updated drivetrain parts from Ashcroft are going to struggle to last long. And even if you completely sort the drivetrain the amount of twist on the chassis is quite spectacular.

This is where the Americans have the advantage as it’s much easier to source what’s needed to handle stupid power.

An old Defender built properly to be able to use the power an LS3 creates really wouldn’t have much Defender under the skin.
Funny as if I recall you have a tvr background, as do I. I also have some form with Defenders including a V8 50 th. These, plus the LS3 which was in my VXR8 led to the LS3 Defender idea. As you concluded, it was not to be.

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
58ap said:
Funny as if I recall you have a tvr background, as do I. I also have some form with Defenders including a V8 50 th. These, plus the LS3 which was in my VXR8 led to the LS3 Defender idea. As you concluded, it was not to be.
Indeed. I’ve had them and old Rangies since I was 21. At one point I bought the last Overfinch conversion. That had the 5.7 sbc, so in theory around 330bhp and ftlbs. With all the uprated mechanicals from Ashcroft it would still chew half shafts when turning out of a junction or powering off a roundabout etc. And the brakes were right in the limit.

On the most recent build I looked long and hard at the LS. Such a great unit but none of the gearbox options would take the power so that meant using something like Rakeway’s shorted Getrag unit. And most US auto boxes output to the other side or have pans offset to the right where your front drive shaft needs to go. You then need to deal with the diffs as well as getting properly balanced drive shafts. All of that leads you to the unresolvable weak link of the rear half shafts but then they are the cheapest bit to have break so not a terrible thing. You then need completely uprated brakes so bigger wheels.

It’s all doable but a really good conversion that is bullet proof and well engineered is not going to be cheap and frankly, I’d rather buy a V8 conversion direct from JLR just to make it easier to low load it back to be fixed. biggrin

The actual solution for mine stemmed from the TVR world. A Rotrex supercharger on an intercollegiate, cross bolted 4.0. It won’t give as much power as the LS but crucially, the power it does give comes in at higher rpm like a turbo so far less wearing on the drivetrain as it simply isn’t there most of the time.

58ap

154 posts

181 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
quotequote all
[quote=DonkeyApple]

Indeed. I’ve had them and old Rangies since I was 21. At one point I bought the last Overfinch conversion. That had the 5.7 sbc, so in theory around 330bhp and ftlbs. With all the uprated mechanicals from Ashcroft it would still chew half shafts when turning out of a junction or powering off a roundabout etc. And the brakes were right in the limit.

On the most recent build I looked long and hard at the LS. Such a great unit but none of the gearbox options would take the power so that meant using something like Rakeway’s shorted Getrag unit. And most US auto boxes output to the other side or have pans offset to the right where your front drive shaft needs to go. You then need to deal with the diffs as well as getting properly balanced drive shafts. All of that leads you to the unresolvable weak link of the rear half shafts but then they are the cheapest bit to have break so not a terrible thing. You then need completely uprated brakes so bigger wheels.

It’s all doable but a really good conversion that is bullet proof and well engineered is not going to be cheap and frankly, I’d rather buy a V8 conversion direct from JLR just to make it easier to low load it back to be fixed. biggrin

The actual solution for mine stemmed from the TVR world. A Rotrex supercharger on an intercollegiate, cross bolted 4.0. It won’t give as much power as the LS but crucially, the power it does give comes in at higher rpm like a turbo so far less wearing on the drivetrain as it simply isn’t there most of the time. [/quote

DA
I had long conversations with Rakeway too at the time I may well have asked them to do the job had I proceeded. I think I was introduced to them by Sportmotive. In hindsight, I think it would have been a world of trouble. I did not want to have to financially commit to something which I could immediately see execution risk with. The Defender 70th looks like the nearest thing but again a high price for all that R and D. Shame. Did you put the Rotrex into the Range ? Do you still have it? Ap

DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
quotequote all
58ap]onkeyApple said:
Indeed. I’ve had them and old Rangies since I was 21. At one point I bought the last Overfinch conversion. That had the 5.7 sbc, so in theory around 330bhp and ftlbs. With all the uprated mechanicals from Ashcroft it would still chew half shafts when turning out of a junction or powering off a roundabout etc. And the brakes were right in the limit.

On the most recent build I looked long and hard at the LS. Such a great unit but none of the gearbox options would take the power so that meant using something like Rakeway’s shorted Getrag unit. And most US auto boxes output to the other side or have pans offset to the right where your front drive shaft needs to go. You then need to deal with the diffs as well as getting properly balanced drive shafts. All of that leads you to the unresolvable weak link of the rear half shafts but then they are the cheapest bit to have break so not a terrible thing. You then need completely uprated brakes so bigger wheels.

It’s all doable but a really good conversion that is bullet proof and well engineered is not going to be cheap and frankly, I’d rather buy a V8 conversion direct from JLR just to make it easier to low load it back to be fixed. biggrin

The actual solution for mine stemmed from the TVR world. A Rotrex supercharger on an intercollegiate, cross bolted 4.0. It won’t give as much power as the LS but crucially, the power it does give comes in at higher rpm like a turbo so far less wearing on the drivetrain as it simply isn’t there most of the time. [/quote

DA
I had long conversations with Rakeway too at the time I may well have asked them to do the job had I proceeded. I think I was introduced to them by Sportmotive. In hindsight, I think it would have been a world of trouble. I did not want to have to financially commit to something which I could immediately see execution risk with. The Defender 70th looks like the nearest thing but again a high price for all that R and D. Shame. Did you put the Rotrex into the Range ? Do you still have it? Ap
I thought Rakeway came across as very credible and also honest. I stumbled across them because at one point my engine choice was the SOHC 5.5 AMG V8. It’s smaller than the Rover V8 but will give 400 bhp without being over stretched and troublesome. By that time I’d firmly decided on needing to be auto so was looking for someone who had a TCU for the Merc 5 speed which was also in the Jeep and other Chrysler’s at the time so stood a chance of existing. Rakeway had one and used them but they were very honest in explaining that it wasn’t terribly intelligent and was used for circuit gear changes and for smooth road use it would take a huge amount of programming and probably would never be that smooth. The final nail in that coffin was when I started researching the market for AMG rebuilders as I’d want the engine to be stripped and refreshed. That’s when I learned that the aftermarket industry for Mercedes was basically dribbling gibbons who just want to wrap something or change the chip while spewing out verbal diarrhoea.

Still got the car. It’s been a ten year project (muchbof it spent in storage while I decided on final spec and sourced all the rare parts) and is on the toad now in NA form. The deep core rad with intercooler (Disco TDi rad remade to the spec they used in the Dakar), the bracketry and charger are on the shelf ready to go on once I’ve got everything else tested and settled on.

The slightly odd thing is that I’ve often joked that this is my midlife TVR as it’s a waffly V8 that is exciting in the corners but has space for all the baggage of middle life but the other day I realised that it’s the same colour inside and out, same engine and electronics as the first Griff I drove when I must have been about 20. No idea if that’s all accidental or the subconscious at work.

Going back to the Defender. The other option I looked at was JE’s Zulu conversion. I was really impressed with that and in terms of doing everything that was needed and doing it properly I thought it was actually verging on the inexpensive.

My only issue was that I am a sucker for a pushrod V8 over a DOHC. I just think they feel much more mellow when pottering around.

58ap

154 posts

181 months

Friday 17th July 2020
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
I thought Rakeway came across as very credible and also honest. I stumbled across them because at one point my engine choice was the SOHC 5.5 AMG V8. It’s smaller than the Rover V8 but will give 400 bhp without being over stretched and troublesome. By that time I’d firmly decided on needing to be auto so was looking for someone who had a TCU for the Merc 5 speed which was also in the Jeep and other Chrysler’s at the time so stood a chance of existing. Rakeway had one and used them but they were very honest in explaining that it wasn’t terribly intelligent and was used for circuit gear changes and for smooth road use it would take a huge amount of programming and probably would never be that smooth. The final nail in that coffin was when I started researching the market for AMG rebuilders as I’d want the engine to be stripped and refreshed. That’s when I learned that the aftermarket industry for Mercedes was basically dribbling gibbons who just want to wrap something or change the chip while spewing out verbal diarrhoea.

Still got the car. It’s been a ten year project (muchbof it spent in storage while I decided on final spec and sourced all the rare parts) and is on the toad now in NA form. The deep core rad with intercooler (Disco TDi rad remade to the spec they used in the Dakar), the bracketry and charger are on the shelf ready to go on once I’ve got everything else tested and settled on.

The slightly odd thing is that I’ve often joked that this is my midlife TVR as it’s a waffly V8 that is exciting in the corners but has space for all the baggage of middle life but the other day I realised that it’s the same colour inside and out, same engine and electronics as the first Griff I drove when I must have been about 20. No idea if that’s all accidental or the subconscious at work.

Going back to the Defender. The other option I looked at was JE’s Zulu conversion. I was really impressed with that and in terms of doing everything that was needed and doing it properly I thought it was actually verging on the inexpensive.

My only issue was that I am a sucker for a pushrod V8 over a DOHC. I just think they feel much more mellow when pottering around.
"dribbling gibbons" - Like it !

I too got my first TVR (S2) from the TVR Centre in Arkley on 1.8.89 at 22 years old. Shortly after I went back there as the under-bonnet insulation worked loose and caught on my open accelerator cable whilst going up Highgate West Hill. I walked in and said to the joint owner,Belinda, that her car had nearly killed me. "They all say that", she replied!

My Defender 50th was my proposal for a family TVR and did the job well. It had upgraded ECU, Exhaust and suspension. I only sold it as i few things loooked potentially bad such as electrics and I wanted something newer and LS3. The INEOS with a V8 might have appealed. Not sure about the looks of the 'new' Defender as it looks somewhat generic. Can you post photos/ sound of the Range Rover ?

Thank you.
ap



DonkeyApple

54,923 posts

168 months

Friday 17th July 2020
quotequote all
58ap said:
"dribbling gibbons" - Like it !

I too got my first TVR (S2) from the TVR Centre in Arkley on 1.8.89 at 22 years old. Shortly after I went back there as the under-bonnet insulation worked loose and caught on my open accelerator cable whilst going up Highgate West Hill. I walked in and said to the joint owner,Belinda, that her car had nearly killed me. "They all say that", she replied!

My Defender 50th was my proposal for a family TVR and did the job well. It had upgraded ECU, Exhaust and suspension. I only sold it as i few things loooked potentially bad such as electrics and I wanted something newer and LS3. The INEOS with a V8 might have appealed. Not sure about the looks of the 'new' Defender as it looks somewhat generic. Can you post photos/ sound of the Range Rover ?

Thank you.
ap
I used to use the TVR Centre also. biggrin. I bought my Griff while drunk at my sister’s wedding. A chap called Gerry Marshall (who uses to own the Barnet Motor Company which at one brief point owned TVR itself) had turned up in a 4.3 BV Griff that Wheeler had handed to him and to which Gerry had had the engine rebuilt to his own spec (a spec that miraculously later appeared at one of the TVR related companies being claimed as their own.). Anyway, Wheeler has just had his factory drivers knock Gerry’s Tuscan Challenge car off the track to avoid a non factory entrant from winning the cup that year and he was fuming which resulted in my getting the Griff for well under market. I should never have sold that car. 13 years of fun and no trouble motoring.

I think what TVRs, V8 Landies and of you think back the original Oscar India V8s tap into very well is thatbin the UK there is a very large number of people who love Americana, love the big trucks, V8s but would never be seen dead turning up at a 5 star hotel, the office car park, Waitrose, or pretty much any British social event.

What TVR delivered in the 90s was the solution to that. It was an American style experience packaged in Britishness so suddenly you could have that silly, big pushrod V8 but turn up to the polo without being mocked.

Aston achieved this with the Vantage. It was basically a vulgar US muscle car that we all love but packaged with enough Britishness to enable the owner to leave Kensington, drop the wife off in Knightsbridge for shopping and then head to Mayfair to visit the prossies.

And the V8 Landy tapped that. Americana packaged with enough Britishness so as to transcend all bias, social stigma and the class system. And that’s a really powerful aspect of Britished Americana, it transcends the strict class barriers thatbonce wholly defined the Uk and controlled where you could go and in what and wearing what.

It’s why the Wrangler just hasn’t really sold in the UK. It’s not that we don’t know what it is or that we don’t like it but simply because it’s price here puts it firmly into that buyers segment that won’t spemd that amount of money to be chortled at at the venues which their lifestyle takes them to.

This Wrangler and things like the new Bronco May take you to hard to reach places where there is nobody to be found but the new Defender will take you to the hard to reach places where everybody is to be found. This is why they are two very different types of product and why there is so much animosity between the most extreme and insecure members of each of those groups.

For me, I’d take a new Defender with an LS3 in it. The best of both worlds plus a bucket of stupid.

Gratuitous photo of a horrifically bastardised Suffix A Range Rover. biggrin






58ap

154 posts

181 months

Tuesday 21st July 2020
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
I used to use the TVR Centre also. biggrin. I bought my Griff while drunk at my sister’s wedding. A chap called Gerry Marshall (who uses to own the Barnet Motor Company which at one brief point owned TVR itself) had turned up in a 4.3 BV Griff that Wheeler had handed to him and to which Gerry had had the engine rebuilt to his own spec (a spec that miraculously later appeared at one of the TVR related companies being claimed as their own.). Anyway, Wheeler has just had his factory drivers knock Gerry’s Tuscan Challenge car off the track to avoid a non factory entrant from winning the cup that year and he was fuming which resulted in my getting the Griff for well under market. I should never have sold that car. 13 years of fun and no trouble motoring.

I think what TVRs, V8 Landies and of you think back the original Oscar India V8s tap into very well is thatbin the UK there is a very large number of people who love Americana, love the big trucks, V8s but would never be seen dead turning up at a 5 star hotel, the office car park, Waitrose, or pretty much any British social event.

What TVR delivered in the 90s was the solution to that. It was an American style experience packaged in Britishness so suddenly you could have that silly, big pushrod V8 but turn up to the polo without being mocked.

Aston achieved this with the Vantage. It was basically a vulgar US muscle car that we all love but packaged with enough Britishness to enable the owner to leave Kensington, drop the wife off in Knightsbridge for shopping and then head to Mayfair to visit the prossies.

And the V8 Landy tapped that. Americana packaged with enough Britishness so as to transcend all bias, social stigma and the class system. And that’s a really powerful aspect of Britished Americana, it transcends the strict class barriers thatbonce wholly defined the Uk and controlled where you could go and in what and wearing what.

It’s why the Wrangler just hasn’t really sold in the UK. It’s not that we don’t know what it is or that we don’t like it but simply because it’s price here puts it firmly into that buyers segment that won’t spemd that amount of money to be chortled at at the venues which their lifestyle takes them to.

This Wrangler and things like the new Bronco May take you to hard to reach places where there is nobody to be found but the new Defender will take you to the hard to reach places where everybody is to be found. This is why they are two very different types of product and why there is so much animosity between the most extreme and insecure members of each of those groups.

For me, I’d take a new Defender with an LS3 in it. The best of both worlds plus a bucket of stupid.

Gratuitous photo of a horrifically bastardised Suffix A Range Rover. biggrin

[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50019696491_90f25b28d9_n.jpg[/thumb]

[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50019958392_04333e606e_n.jpg[/thumb]

[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48858944991_b8cd277d7a_n.jpg[/thumb]
Looks good DA.

I agree with your thinking re the US muscle draped in UK Saville Row. I too looked at JE years ago and passed for the same reasons.
I have thought about the G, but there are so many round here, along with SVR and I would be disappointed to spend so much and find half a dozen identical things nearby. Anyway, I have capitulated and went American on the basis that the amount of R and D in the product should provide some degree of comfort, plus a 5 year warranty. I will always have a soft spot for a Defender and still have to stop and look at what I think are nice ones. Thank you. ap

dandare

957 posts

253 months

Tuesday 21st July 2020
quotequote all
Get a room!