RE: The best fast estates to buy in 2020
Discussion
My rule for anything other than the people has Always been ‘if it won’t go in the boot it does not go in the car’. We became very effective at packing since most of my early years involved travel in a Capri injection and the boot was between the (raised) floor and parcel shelf.
Still have that car and the packing discipline has remained - just as well given most of my transport has very limited luggage capability (other then the 63 which has more than enough for us!)
Still have that car and the packing discipline has remained - just as well given most of my transport has very limited luggage capability (other then the 63 which has more than enough for us!)
Evening all,
I have been mulling over the entry point into fast estate ownership,so this guide is very welcome.
Starting at the bottom is an option of course, but I think the car below that popped up in 'trader last night stretches the word "bottom" to the extreme:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202010145...
It does seem that covid has firmed up prices for a lot of cars, and it's the first 9-5 I've seen with any significant rust.
Though this is probably one for the car buying forum, where zx10r nin can throw insignia turbos and mondeo titaniums at me!
I have been mulling over the entry point into fast estate ownership,so this guide is very welcome.
Starting at the bottom is an option of course, but I think the car below that popped up in 'trader last night stretches the word "bottom" to the extreme:
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202010145...
It does seem that covid has firmed up prices for a lot of cars, and it's the first 9-5 I've seen with any significant rust.
Though this is probably one for the car buying forum, where zx10r nin can throw insignia turbos and mondeo titaniums at me!
After working on my sister's 2007 Saab 9-3, I simply cannot recommend one for a variety of reasons including:
-No true dealership network. Vauxhall are useless in recognising anything without a Vauxhall badge on it
-Lack of genuine parts. Sounds fine ; I have never had such a poor quality steering part fitted to a car ; I had to modify the steering shaft on my sister's Saab just to make it fit right, including removing burrs from the inside of the shaft so it would actually slot on, recut the threads so that it didn't destroy bolts (yes, really!), and plug a hole in the shaft which basically piped in turbo whooshing sounds and heat into the car. Want a genuine part? Tough, you can't get them anymore.
-Not having a scanner that works on it or can even give out live data for diagnostic work. Carly? Basic engine codes and I do mean basic. Snap-On Solus? Won't even connect, even on a late revision. The only thing which connects is TECH-II, which is very expensive secondhand to get, which leaves you in the hands of the specialists only ; Not great if they are not on your doorstep.
Both my Mondeo and M3 have inexpensive tools which connect and a Snap-On Solus machine will also read a good chunk of codes and chuck out live data.
-Working on them. They have some truly awful designs in place. The rear brake carrier bolt needs the upper suspension bolt removing in order to remove it, especially if someone has Locktited it in, ruling out using a ring spanner on an TX-E bolt, aka an External Torx, which again, will need you to part with more cash on tools you'll never use again.
If the upper suspension bolt is stuck in place. Well, good luck.
You could say to the above "I'll go to a garage". They'll face the same issues, leaving you with either a car coming back more broken than when it went in, which is a familiar course in many independant garages, or shelling out a fortune to put what is a cheap car right again.
If they were a nice drive, I'd say they're worth it, but they're not. They're lifeless. Sure, they grip on well, but there is very little feedback from any of the controls. To me, they're a car you buy to make a statement and for snobbery, not for logic.
The 5 speed manual in the 1.8t form has gaps so large between the ratios you could chuck another gearbox in the spaces between them! 2nd gear is useless around town, leaving you to either scream the engine off in 1st gear, or slip the clutch to Kingdom Come in 2nd. I know it's not me either. My sister struggled with it from well placed ratio cars she'd driven before, and my friend who owned it before me never could master it, despite being a manual 'box fan. The remap admittedly has made this less of a problem.
As you can tell, I used to like Saabs when I didn't own one. Owning mine and helping others out on theirs has just put me off them.
Did the OP actually drive one, or just look at the badge and like it?
-No true dealership network. Vauxhall are useless in recognising anything without a Vauxhall badge on it
-Lack of genuine parts. Sounds fine ; I have never had such a poor quality steering part fitted to a car ; I had to modify the steering shaft on my sister's Saab just to make it fit right, including removing burrs from the inside of the shaft so it would actually slot on, recut the threads so that it didn't destroy bolts (yes, really!), and plug a hole in the shaft which basically piped in turbo whooshing sounds and heat into the car. Want a genuine part? Tough, you can't get them anymore.
-Not having a scanner that works on it or can even give out live data for diagnostic work. Carly? Basic engine codes and I do mean basic. Snap-On Solus? Won't even connect, even on a late revision. The only thing which connects is TECH-II, which is very expensive secondhand to get, which leaves you in the hands of the specialists only ; Not great if they are not on your doorstep.
Both my Mondeo and M3 have inexpensive tools which connect and a Snap-On Solus machine will also read a good chunk of codes and chuck out live data.
-Working on them. They have some truly awful designs in place. The rear brake carrier bolt needs the upper suspension bolt removing in order to remove it, especially if someone has Locktited it in, ruling out using a ring spanner on an TX-E bolt, aka an External Torx, which again, will need you to part with more cash on tools you'll never use again.
If the upper suspension bolt is stuck in place. Well, good luck.
You could say to the above "I'll go to a garage". They'll face the same issues, leaving you with either a car coming back more broken than when it went in, which is a familiar course in many independant garages, or shelling out a fortune to put what is a cheap car right again.
If they were a nice drive, I'd say they're worth it, but they're not. They're lifeless. Sure, they grip on well, but there is very little feedback from any of the controls. To me, they're a car you buy to make a statement and for snobbery, not for logic.
The 5 speed manual in the 1.8t form has gaps so large between the ratios you could chuck another gearbox in the spaces between them! 2nd gear is useless around town, leaving you to either scream the engine off in 1st gear, or slip the clutch to Kingdom Come in 2nd. I know it's not me either. My sister struggled with it from well placed ratio cars she'd driven before, and my friend who owned it before me never could master it, despite being a manual 'box fan. The remap admittedly has made this less of a problem.
As you can tell, I used to like Saabs when I didn't own one. Owning mine and helping others out on theirs has just put me off them.
Did the OP actually drive one, or just look at the badge and like it?
So, I went off on a bit of a rant about Saabs, as while they're not a bad car, they're not the best choice under £2k.
I'd put the Mondeo 2.5 Turbo at that or possibly even a MkIII ST2220. They are far superior dynamically, are more spacious, and with 220BHP a decent amount of power for the road. In stock form, they're not too bad on fuel either, getting between 28-35MPG. Sure, you can make them faster with a remap, and other Focus ST inclinded modifications, but that's for you to decide.
PH loves a manual gearbox, and the 'box in this won't dissapoint, With decent ratios and a slick change coupled with great clutch actuation, it's a decent car to drive, thanks to a good chassis and good feedback. Evo back in the day said short of getting a B7 RS4, your money was best spent on a 2.5T Mondeo over a 'normal' Audi A4.
They're also exempt from emissions charges, thanks to being a Euro IV petrol. If James Bond drove the non-estate 2.5T, they can't be that bad right?
The downside with them is that
-Most won't want a rubbish badge
-The 2.5Ts do seem to be holding firm on price now : I recently turned down £1.5k for my 185k example as I doubt I'll get a car which can do what it can without spending signficantly more (i.e £5k+).I wasn't selling, but a friend asked if I was selling mine, to which I went back with a silly price @ £2.5k as I plan to basically drive it with me being the final owner.
-They're a pretty rare thing ; Ford to my knowledge only made 1000 as non-performance petrols didn't really sell well back in the late 00s from anyone.
-Some parts are expensive which are related to the engine. Clutch and flywheel for example can get pricey.
For the £5k bracket? The Legacy is a great shout, but I'd rather buy a BMW E61 535d SE. They look plain, but that engine is something! Yes, it's a diesel, but it's such a lovely puller and suits the E61 down to the ground.
How I almost regret not buying an E61 535d which
-My friend had and offered to me
-My dad had and offered to me, which now another friend in our circles has.
But, It's hard to justify something when your existing daily does the job so well, which is the Mondeo 2.5T.
I'd put the Mondeo 2.5 Turbo at that or possibly even a MkIII ST2220. They are far superior dynamically, are more spacious, and with 220BHP a decent amount of power for the road. In stock form, they're not too bad on fuel either, getting between 28-35MPG. Sure, you can make them faster with a remap, and other Focus ST inclinded modifications, but that's for you to decide.
PH loves a manual gearbox, and the 'box in this won't dissapoint, With decent ratios and a slick change coupled with great clutch actuation, it's a decent car to drive, thanks to a good chassis and good feedback. Evo back in the day said short of getting a B7 RS4, your money was best spent on a 2.5T Mondeo over a 'normal' Audi A4.
They're also exempt from emissions charges, thanks to being a Euro IV petrol. If James Bond drove the non-estate 2.5T, they can't be that bad right?
The downside with them is that
-Most won't want a rubbish badge
-The 2.5Ts do seem to be holding firm on price now : I recently turned down £1.5k for my 185k example as I doubt I'll get a car which can do what it can without spending signficantly more (i.e £5k+).I wasn't selling, but a friend asked if I was selling mine, to which I went back with a silly price @ £2.5k as I plan to basically drive it with me being the final owner.
-They're a pretty rare thing ; Ford to my knowledge only made 1000 as non-performance petrols didn't really sell well back in the late 00s from anyone.
-Some parts are expensive which are related to the engine. Clutch and flywheel for example can get pricey.
For the £5k bracket? The Legacy is a great shout, but I'd rather buy a BMW E61 535d SE. They look plain, but that engine is something! Yes, it's a diesel, but it's such a lovely puller and suits the E61 down to the ground.
How I almost regret not buying an E61 535d which
-My friend had and offered to me
-My dad had and offered to me, which now another friend in our circles has.
But, It's hard to justify something when your existing daily does the job so well, which is the Mondeo 2.5T.
Edited by SebringMan on Saturday 17th October 09:03
Edited by SebringMan on Saturday 17th October 09:06
To the person above you are just poorly informed.
You can still get brand new parts for Saabs. There are plenty of companies that have bought the rights to make bits for them. I recently bought a brand new PCV system for my Saab 9-5.
Tech 2 is the only way to truly connect with them yes but if you do your research there are plenty of groups with willing people who are happy to help. Normally for free. I had someone remarry my radio to my car no problem.
Also a Saab 9-5 comes with a 250 BHP motor which remaps to 275BHP with a £90 remap. ST220 or 2.5 Mondeo is not going to get close to that £ to BHP.
You can still get brand new parts for Saabs. There are plenty of companies that have bought the rights to make bits for them. I recently bought a brand new PCV system for my Saab 9-5.
Tech 2 is the only way to truly connect with them yes but if you do your research there are plenty of groups with willing people who are happy to help. Normally for free. I had someone remarry my radio to my car no problem.
Also a Saab 9-5 comes with a 250 BHP motor which remaps to 275BHP with a £90 remap. ST220 or 2.5 Mondeo is not going to get close to that £ to BHP.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Saturday 17th October 09:54
BricktopST205 said:
To the person above you are just poorly informed.
You can still get brand new parts for Saabs. There are plenty of companies that have bought the rights to make bits for them. I recently bought a brand new PCV system for my Saab 9-5.
Tech 2 is the only way to truly connect with them yes but if you do your research there are plenty of groups with willing people who are happy to help. Normally for free. I had someone remarry my radio to my car no problem.
Also a Saab 9-5 comes with a 250 BHP motor which remaps to 275BHP with a £90 remap. ST220 or 2.5 Mondeo is not going to get close to that £ to BHP.
I’d have the Saab over the Mondeo all day long. Pal had one a few years ago. What a great car it was. You can still get brand new parts for Saabs. There are plenty of companies that have bought the rights to make bits for them. I recently bought a brand new PCV system for my Saab 9-5.
Tech 2 is the only way to truly connect with them yes but if you do your research there are plenty of groups with willing people who are happy to help. Normally for free. I had someone remarry my radio to my car no problem.
Also a Saab 9-5 comes with a 250 BHP motor which remaps to 275BHP with a £90 remap. ST220 or 2.5 Mondeo is not going to get close to that £ to BHP.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Saturday 17th October 09:54
BricktopST205 said:
To the person above you are just poorly informed.
You can still get brand new parts for Saabs. There are plenty of companies that have bought the rights to make bits for them. I recently bought a brand new PCV system for my Saab 9-5.
Tech 2 is the only way to truly connect with them yes but if you do your research there are plenty of groups with willing people who are happy to help. Normally for free. I had someone remarry my radio to my car no problem.
Also a Saab 9-5 comes with a 250 BHP motor which remaps to 275BHP with a £90 remap. ST220 or 2.5 Mondeo is not going to get close to that £ to BHP.
Find me a new genuine steering shaft then You can still get brand new parts for Saabs. There are plenty of companies that have bought the rights to make bits for them. I recently bought a brand new PCV system for my Saab 9-5.
Tech 2 is the only way to truly connect with them yes but if you do your research there are plenty of groups with willing people who are happy to help. Normally for free. I had someone remarry my radio to my car no problem.
Also a Saab 9-5 comes with a 250 BHP motor which remaps to 275BHP with a £90 remap. ST220 or 2.5 Mondeo is not going to get close to that £ to BHP.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Saturday 17th October 09:54
; My old one was a borderline MOT failure, and being my sister's car, I wasn't going to chance a secondhand part on it ; she's not really based at home, so if I do fix the car, it has to be done once and for all ; Time is precious and all that. The one I got from NeoBrothers was crap. That whoosing sound took some time to figure out, to the extent I thought I pulled some insulation away. The genuine part has a metal bung welded into place which the new pattern one does not.The steering shaft isn't an unknown failure either ; the heat from the turbo just cooks the UJ over time, which is how they intitally develop tight spots, before eventually developing play.
I've never had a car where you need to remove a suspension bolt to change a brake disc ; Saab themselves tell you to change it this way via their factory manual. That is madness on replacing a consumable part. I'm very lucky mine hadn't seized in, as old bolts tend to.
Admittedly, I didn't find them too bad before this, but not quite exciting. The remap has improved it alot mind you, and yes, that was a cheap remap done via Karl @ NoobTune.
We've had the 2007 9-3 for around 4 years now, with my friend having it for 3 years beforehand.
Edited by SebringMan on Monday 19th October 03:53
Edited by SebringMan on Monday 19th October 03:54
SebringMan said:
Find me a new genuine steering shaft then ; My old one was a borderline MOT failure, and being my sister's car, I wasn't going to chance a secondhand part on it ; she's not really based at home, so if I do fix the car, it has to be done once and for all ; Time is precious and all that. The one I got from NeoBrothers was crap. That whoosing sound took some time to figure out, to the extent I thought I pulled some insulation away. The genuine part has a metal bung welded into place which the new pattern one does not.
The steering shaft isn't an unknown failure either ; the heat from the turbo just cooks the UJ over time, which is how they intitally develop tight spots, before eventually developing play.
I've never had a car where you need to remove a suspension bolt to change a brake disc ; Saab themselves tell you to change it this way via their factory manual. That is madness on replacing a consumable part. I'm very lucky mine hadn't seized in, as old bolts tend to.
Admittedly, I didn't find them too bad before this, but not quite exciting. The remap has improved it alot mind you, and yes, that was a cheap remap done via Karl @ NoobTune.
We've had the 2007 9-3 for around 4 years now, with my friend having it for 3 years beforehand.
The Car in the article isn't a 9-3. It is a 9-5 so all your foibles are irrelevant as the 9-5 is a different platform to the 9-3. ; My old one was a borderline MOT failure, and being my sister's car, I wasn't going to chance a secondhand part on it ; she's not really based at home, so if I do fix the car, it has to be done once and for all ; Time is precious and all that. The one I got from NeoBrothers was crap. That whoosing sound took some time to figure out, to the extent I thought I pulled some insulation away. The genuine part has a metal bung welded into place which the new pattern one does not.The steering shaft isn't an unknown failure either ; the heat from the turbo just cooks the UJ over time, which is how they intitally develop tight spots, before eventually developing play.
I've never had a car where you need to remove a suspension bolt to change a brake disc ; Saab themselves tell you to change it this way via their factory manual. That is madness on replacing a consumable part. I'm very lucky mine hadn't seized in, as old bolts tend to.
Admittedly, I didn't find them too bad before this, but not quite exciting. The remap has improved it alot mind you, and yes, that was a cheap remap done via Karl @ NoobTune.
We've had the 2007 9-3 for around 4 years now, with my friend having it for 3 years beforehand.
Edited by SebringMan on Monday 19th October 03:53
Edited by SebringMan on Monday 19th October 03:54
Here's another 5.5 E500
Great spec - heated/cooled front seats, HK, pano, rear ents, Distronic/Lane Assist/Blindspot assist plus all the stuff you got on a 500 anyway - bi-Xenons, cornering lights, Airmatic, etc
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202010255...
Great spec - heated/cooled front seats, HK, pano, rear ents, Distronic/Lane Assist/Blindspot assist plus all the stuff you got on a 500 anyway - bi-Xenons, cornering lights, Airmatic, etc
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202010255...
I tried to make the man maths work for a B7 RS4 and just couldn't as it had to be a daily driver, so ended up with a 330dx msport touring, nearly as fast real world, much lower running costs and a great place to be, can see why they have the reputation.
Would have loved the F31 alpina D3 but at 10k more for essentially the same car that didn't work either, and C63's were just out of reach too, and a similar issue.
M5 V10 touring FTW though, definitely the maddest estate and should be on the list
Would have loved the F31 alpina D3 but at 10k more for essentially the same car that didn't work either, and C63's were just out of reach too, and a similar issue.
M5 V10 touring FTW though, definitely the maddest estate and should be on the list
jagfan2 said:
I tried to make the man maths work for a B7 RS4 and just couldn't as it had to be a daily driver, so ended up with a 330dx msport touring, nearly as fast real world, much lower running costs and a great place to be, can see why they have the reputation.
Would have loved the F31 alpina D3 but at 10k more for essentially the same car that didn't work either, and C63's were just out of reach too, and a similar issue.
M5 V10 touring FTW though, definitely the maddest estate and should be on the list
I don’t think the B7 makes for a sensible daily driver, largely down to its love of V-Power. Mine’s a weekender and, like you, have a 3-Series estate for daily duties (340i). Best of both worlds I suppose Would have loved the F31 alpina D3 but at 10k more for essentially the same car that didn't work either, and C63's were just out of reach too, and a similar issue.
M5 V10 touring FTW though, definitely the maddest estate and should be on the list
jagfan2 said:
I tried to make the man maths work for a B7 RS4 and just couldn't as it had to be a daily driver, so ended up with a 330dx msport touring, nearly as fast real world, much lower running costs and a great place to be, can see why they have the reputation.
Would have loved the F31 alpina D3 but at 10k more for essentially the same car that didn't work either, and C63's were just out of reach too, and a similar issue.
M5 V10 touring FTW though, definitely the maddest estate and should be on the list
My alternative to the M5 V10 - V8 supercharged, all washed today ready for service and MOT this week Would have loved the F31 alpina D3 but at 10k more for essentially the same car that didn't work either, and C63's were just out of reach too, and a similar issue.
M5 V10 touring FTW though, definitely the maddest estate and should be on the list
AC43 said:
My mates's got the saloon version. Immensely capable but under the radar. Love them.
I know a few guys from the Alpina forum with the saloons and got one side by side with mine at Beaulieu's 'Simply BMW' last month. The owner also has an M3 with a supercharger added so clearly the B5 got under his skin.One of the other guys in the forum has the saloon twin of mine but we've not managed to meet up yet - my tourer and his saloon are the only E61 B5 and E60 B5 worldwide delivered in 'Malachite Green' which I think is quite cool. They are very much a 'those than know, know' car
Edited by Jules Sunley on Wednesday 28th October 13:37
braddo said:
How do the E500 owners find the cars' ride over speed bumps/cushions etc?
I'd love an E63 as the family bus (but the wife hates estates) but the firm ride would probably grate during the day-to-day stuff (while being absolutely awesome when gunning to the holiday destination
).
Generally very good, especially in Comfort mode. Part of that is tyre-related, of course. Mine is on 18's. It came on 17's and it was positively S Class-like but I thought they looked a bit weedy.I'd love an E63 as the family bus (but the wife hates estates) but the firm ride would probably grate during the day-to-day stuff (while being absolutely awesome when gunning to the holiday destination
).The one thing that always catches Airmatic out is sudden sharp movements like you get on speedbumps with angular edges. Have to slow down a little more for them.
The flat cornering & immense stability at speed makes up for that. Also, having Air all round cuts out noise intruding into the cabin.
I can't compare it to an E55K/W63 but it was big step up from my previous coil-sprung C43's. Good tradeoff of comfort & body control. More S Class-like than blood and thunder which may or may not be a good thing depending on what you want. In AMG terms, probably most like the W210 E55. Relatively compliant.
What I will say is that is you're on a long drive across, say, France serious leptonic progress can be made and your passengers just won't notice. It's that sort of car.
Edited by AC43 on Thursday 29th October 08:43
Jules Sunley said:
AC43 said:
My mates's got the saloon version. Immensely capable but under the radar. Love them.
I know a few guys from the Alpina forum with the saloons and got one side by side with mine at Beaulieu's 'Simply BMW' last month. The owner also has an M3 with a supercharger added so clearly the B5 got under his skin.One of the other guys in the forum has the saloon twin of mine but we've not managed to meet up yet - my tourer and his saloon are the only E61 B5 and E60 B5 worldwide delivered in 'Malachite Green' which I think is quite cool. They are very much a 'those than know, know' car
Edited by Jules Sunley on Wednesday 28th October 13:37
AC43 said:
Nice. I went to the last Bicester show and there was a nice array of Alpinas there - although the B5 Touring was the previous gen one without the s/c. Still a lovely thing but dialled down to 8 rather that up to 11 like yours
That would be a B10 or B10s then, when they still had confusing model numbers before basing them on the series of BMW donor car. Very nice cars still. It's a shame due to Covid so much has been cancelled this year so I haven't got to see many other models in the metal.I must do a Bicester next year, only about an hour from me.
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