RE: Discovery Sport

Author
Discussion

Sheepshanks

32,535 posts

118 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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OpulentBob said:
Am I the only one amazed by 300BHP, 7 second 0-60, from a 1.5 litre 3pot?! I know its got the elecs....
I suppose if it had enough 'elecs' you could make the power and performance figures almost anything you like regardless of the engine.

DonkeyApple

54,932 posts

168 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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The Wookie said:
Monkeylegend said:
As TFL found with the early hybrids that needed to do 30 miles on battery only to become exempt from the congestion charge, people buy them but never bother to charge them for the paltry 30 mile all electric range, so you end up with increased emissions due to all the extra weight the ICE is lugging around.

Well thought out by TFL smile
The question you've got to ask yourself is who is the bigger bunch of fking idiots, the buyers for ignoring the option of virtually free petrol and never having to sit in traffic to find one of the diminishing number of petrol stations in the city, or TfL for pioneering this strategy without having enough common sense to realise they needed back it up with supplying the new influx of PHEVs with convenient opportunities to charge them for it to actually be worthwhile
It wasn’t the customers. People who lives in Z3&4 were suddenly told they would be CC exempt if they bought a Prius or Lexus as their next commuting car. Job done. £10/day saved. None of these people charged these cars because they had no means to charge them and there was absolutely no need to charge them. They were just the cheaper petrol vehicle for commuting across Town.

Same with all the minicabs. They never runnon electric because the people who run them cannot charge them and they would run out of electricity by the time they’ve travelled in to their operating areas anyway. Plus, no one has ever asked them or told them to. Petrol is cheaper and easier.

What is arguably different with these sorts of products is that at £50k the users are likely to have drive ways so can charge and are likely to want to charge them up over night to take advantage of the cheaper running costs. Unlike London residents, the cost savings come from actually using your home electricity and it’s close to zero taxation compared to the taxes levied on petrol, whereas it was cheaper and easier to use petrol in London.

The Wookie

13,909 posts

227 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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Monkeylegend said:
Well when you have got something like 70,000 licensed PH vehicles running around London most of which drive within the congestion charging area during their working day, you can understand why the owner/drivers would want to not have to pay the congestion charge, hence the proliferation of hybrids.

The downside is that even if the infrastructure was there to provide charging capacity for all those vehicles, which it wasn't a couple of years ago, no working driver is going to sit around potentially missing opportunities to earn money for an hour or so every time he needs to charge his battery to enable him to drive 30 miles on battery alone.

They maybe charge their cars overnight if they have access to a charger to get a cheap drive into work, but after that they won't bother.

So I would say TFL were asking drivers to do something they couldn't do anyway because of lack of chargers, but also made their cars exempt from the CC, whilst they drive around merrily all day lugging the extra weight of the batteries on an ICE.

I blame TFL for lack of foresight and planning so would say they were the bigger bunch of fking idiots. The drivers are taking advantage of a free pass which is understandable.
Yeah to be fair if you’re looking at it from the point of view of cabs or delivery vans then it does make it more daft, full EV and fast charging infrastructure makes much more sense but then they’d actually need a strategy rather than a pipe dream like you say

I was thinking more along the use case of a private user that lives in the city, minces around in it during the week, plugs in on the street at night but drives to their family or recreational stuff out of town at the weekends. But then that’s probably what TFL we’re thinking and they didn’t even consider that properly

DonkeyApple

54,932 posts

168 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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The Wookie said:
Yeah to be fair if you’re looking at it from the point of view of cabs or delivery vans then it does make it more daft, full EV and fast charging infrastructure makes much more sense but then they’d actually need a strategy rather than a pipe dream like you say

I was thinking more along the use case of a private user that lives in the city, minces around in it during the week, plugs in on the street at night but drives to their family or recreational stuff out of town at the weekends. But then that’s probably what TFL we’re thinking and they didn’t even consider that properly
Cars in London just naturally using stop/start tech has probably achieved a greater reduction in pollution than giving tax breaks to people for driving petrol cars that are weighed down by unusable hybrid tech.

Besides, the typical Uber is used in shifts so when one driver returns to his garden shed near Heathrow the next chap jumps in it.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 21st October 13:54

The Wookie

13,909 posts

227 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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JonnyVTEC said:
You are right 27 miles a day of no fuel is a huge reduction in roadside emissions...

oh sorry you had somehow come to the opposite conclusion?
I bought the Panamera PHEV I had a stopgap vehicle with no consideration for it actually being a PHEV as I’m well outside the use case with a very short commute but lots of long journeys to suppliers and customers on top

Even with a poxy 11 mile range I couldn’t believe how much less fuel I was using. The thing would do low 30’s mpg on a longer run which was fine for a car of that weight and performance by itself, but I was averaging high 40’s in a typical week

Aside from the weight they really are a good halfway house, particularly for anyone that doesn’t like EVs

AmyRichardson

1,007 posts

41 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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OpulentBob said:
Am I the only one amazed by 300BHP, 7 second 0-60, from a 1.5 litre 3pot?! I know its got the elecs, but still, that's amazing progress in technology (if reliable). I can't see how this is anything but attractive. And the price isn't exactly eye-watering for a new JLR product. I'm impressed.
I was initially blinded by the 300hp/3-pot combination but upon realising that the ICE was <200hp (~130hp/lt - the same a lot of small capacity mass-market turbo engines) it all made a bit more sense. Electric contribution is what it is and needs to be thought of as another engine.

What I completely don't understand people wailing about the prospect of driving a 200hp/2-ton vehicle.

Anything but the V8 was utterly hopeless in the Disco-I/II (memories of doing the school run in one - lots of roar and turbo whistle from the TD 4-pot, not a lot of acceleration...) but the V6 diesel in the Disco III gave that car tolerable pace despite it's gargantuan weight. The 188hp diesel probably had more ready shove than a 200hp turbo petrol, but then the Disco III was 25% heavier than the cars in question.


deadtom

2,552 posts

164 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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AmyRichardson said:
What I completely don't understand people wailing about the prospect of driving a 200hp/2-ton vehicle.

Anything but the V8 was utterly hopeless in the Disco-I/II (memories of doing the school run in one - lots of roar and turbo whistle from the TD 4-pot, not a lot of acceleration...) but the V6 diesel in the Disco III gave that car tolerable pace despite it's gargantuan weight. The 188hp diesel probably had more ready shove than a 200hp turbo petrol, but then the Disco III was 25% heavier than the cars in question.
It was some time ago on here someone said a disco III was "dangerously slow" on account of having 70 bhp/tonne laugh

while that kind of power to mass ratio won't see you setting new quarter mile records, it's more than adequate for normal usage.

I can only assume that people who make these assertions are just terrible, terrible drivers.

getting back on topic, I've found the p400e drive train gives the velar size cars plenty of oomph and drives very nicely, albeit lacking anything resembling character, however it is a noticeable change when the charge runs low and it has to do a lot more shuffling between motor and engine in urban type driving.
I expect the 300 will be much the same.

jgrewal

730 posts

46 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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Getting a P300e Disco Sport delivered next Friday (ordered and waited patiently since June). I am not too concerned with the BIK etc, I am just looking forward to having 'fuel free' trips for local school drops, shops etc. Our mileage has gone considerably down since Covid and this feels like a good entry point for EV for me and the family to avoid range anxiety before we go full EV in few years. I am sure the car won't be perfect as its a brand new product by JLR but let's see. I will feedback!

Edited by jgrewal on Wednesday 21st October 16:11

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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Bser16 said:
So of you ever travel over 40 miles you will be hauling around dead weight which will all be done by a 3 cylinder. I would never want to travel over 40 miles in one of these things. Im guessing in the cold these are more like 30 miles of range
More importantly, if you rarely travel over 40 miles a day (like most people) you're mostly hauling around the dead weight of an engine and transmission.

Sheepshanks

32,535 posts

118 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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deadtom said:
It was some time ago on here someone said a disco III was "dangerously slow" on account of having 70 bhp/tonne laugh

while that kind of power to mass ratio won't see you setting new quarter mile records, it's more than adequate for normal usage.
I know it's not a very comparable car in its detail but we have a SEAT Ateca with a one litre 3cyl 115PS engine (and no elecric assistance!).

It's obviously not a ball of fire, but it goes perfectly well enough for everything most owners of these cars is going to ask of them.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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otolith said:
More importantly, if you rarely travel over 40 miles a day (like most people) you're mostly hauling around the dead weight of an engine and transmission.
But no one cares when they’re driving around with the “dead weight” of unused seats and 3/4 of a cabin when travelling without passengers. That argument holds no water. Sometimes those seats and cabin space are used, just as sometimes the ICE of PHEV is used.

What about BEVs that lug around the discharged cells of their batteries as they are used? Dead weight that...

Edited by mstrbkr on Wednesday 21st October 16:31

The Wookie

13,909 posts

227 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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otolith said:
More importantly, if you rarely travel over 40 miles a day (like most people) you're mostly hauling around the dead weight of an engine and transmission.
Or if it’s a long range pure EV probably getting on for half a tonne of batteries you aren’t going to use

DonkeyApple

54,932 posts

168 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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mstrbkr said:
But no one cares when they’re driving around with the “dead weight” of unused seats and 3/4 of a cabin when travelling without passengers. That argument holds no water. Sometimes those seats and cabin space are used, just as sometimes the ICE of PHEV is used.

What about BEVs that lug around the discharged cells of their batteries as they are used? Dead weight that...

Edited by mstrbkr on Wednesday 21st October 16:31
And that is the logic of it all. Ultimately, common sense is to select one’s every day car based on exactly how you need it to work and from that, be as efficient as you desire to be. One man’s Honda Jazz can be infinitely more efficient than another’s EV and one persons big SUV can be more efficient than someone else’s diesel estate etc etc.

csampo

236 posts

194 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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I've ordered one as my wife has about ~25 mile daily commute and we have a driveway for charging, and then once or twice a month we do a 300 mile round trip up to Snowdonia where my familly has a cottage up a rocky track that beaches anything that isn't either tall and short (like a pre-1990's french hatchback) or a 4x4. So my rather niche use-case fits this kind of vehicle just so! Supposedly the system always maintains a minimum level of charge in the batteries when in hybrid mode, using the ICE plus regen to maintain that charge level even when it says 0%, so that there is always 300 bhp and a bunch of torque available for normal road use. In a car like this that will mainly be for overtaking I'd imagine; it'll never be a nice thing to really push hard in. Of course this will not work in extremis on an autobahn as it can't supply more than 200bhp in steady state from the ICE, but for normal UK road use the proportion of drive time where you are actually exceeding 200 bhp is very small (only ~20bhp is required to cruise at 60 mph). Similarly, off-road, actual power use is relatively low so the ICE should be able to maintain adequate battery charge fairly easily for the rear motor to provide torque to the rear wheels as required, even at the end of a long drive.

That's the theory and sales spiel. like posters above I'll feedback when mine arrives in the new year!

Edited by csampo on Wednesday 21st October 18:39

205007

107 posts

151 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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I8 Powertrain in a Disco - only took them 6 years to copy it!




braddo

10,399 posts

187 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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Monkeylegend said:
Well when you have got something like 70,000 licensed PH vehicles running around London most of which drive within the congestion charging area during their working day, you can understand why the owner/drivers would want to not have to pay the congestion charge, hence the proliferation of hybrids.

... charging capacity... charge his battery...

I blame TFL for lack of foresight ... fking idiots.
Your post is such a load of st, bks, rubbish, lies, ignorance, bias etc etc.

For a start, where is the evidence that 70,000 licenced PH vehicles drive into the congestion charge zone every day?

The proliferation of minicabs is because of Uber. Or more broadly, tech innovation. It has nothing to do with the congestion charge zone or emissions standards imposed by TFL.

If TFL hadn't imposed emissions standards in the congestion charge (CC) zone, the area would have been chock full of the cheap diesels that were minicab staples before the Prius. The issue of air pollution and particulates in central London would be FAR WORSE if it wasn't for TFL providing 'incentives' to push minicab drivers into hybrids. And note - TFL's policies predated plug-in hybrids, i.e. before there was any question of needing charging infrastructure.

It turns out TFL was ahead of the curve, not behind.

A separate issue - are there too many minicabs in greater London thanks to Uber? Yes. That is an entirely separate issue to hybirds and emissions and the main point of this thread, being Land Rover making some hybrids!!!


JonnyVTEC

3,001 posts

174 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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205007 said:
I8 Powertrain in a Disco - only took them 6 years to copy it!
Half price and double the seats. Bonus.

DonkeyApple

54,932 posts

168 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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Uber didn’t even appear in London until 2012. The CC began nearly a decade before that and the green badge was just before it. While Uber has increased minicab usage we all remember the enormous proliferation of green badges that appeared in the run up to the CC launch. No idea on numbers but Zone 1 was riddled with minicabs long before Uber was even dreamt up and before the smart phone was invented. In the 90s, every other car anywhere there were bars were Moodys. Addison Lee opened its doors in 1975. wink

Hell, in the mid 90s I bought a Peugeot 405 as a cheap London car and every time I stopped at the lights a drunk would try and get in and demand I drive them home and every Black cab would try and run me off the road. biggrin

I doubt that there are any more minicabs on the road today than 20 years ago. However, the one thing that has changed is that they are all registered. Back in the 90s very few were even remotely legal. The CC was the big event that forced all the moody cabs to go legit so they could get the green disk and carry on operating.

DonkeyApple

54,932 posts

168 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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JonnyVTEC said:
205007 said:
I8 Powertrain in a Disco - only took them 6 years to copy it!
Half price and double the seats. Bonus.
And easier for old people to get in and out of. wink

jason61c

5,978 posts

173 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
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Is this a paid advert from JLR?