RE: Discovery Sport

Author
Discussion

braddo

10,399 posts

187 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
Uber didn’t even appear in London until 2012. The CC began nearly a decade before that and the green badge was just before it. While Uber has increased minicab usage we all remember the enormous proliferation of green badges that appeared in the run up to the CC launch. No idea on numbers but Zone 1 was riddled with minicabs long before Uber was even dreamt up and before the smart phone was invented. In the 90s, every other car anywhere there were bars were Moodys. Addison Lee opened its doors in 1975. wink

Hell, in the mid 90s I bought a Peugeot 405 as a cheap London car and every time I stopped at the lights a drunk would try and get in and demand I drive them home and every Black cab would try and run me off the road. biggrin

I doubt that there are any more minicabs on the road today than 20 years ago. However, the one thing that has changed is that they are all registered. Back in the 90s very few were even remotely legal. The CC was the big event that forced all the moody cabs to go legit so they could get the green disk and carry on operating.
You are talking about the regulation of minicabs from 15-25 years ago.

So if illegal minicabs were still at the same levels today, is that OK, and they're entitled to be dirtly old diesel stboxes?

The CC has had a massive impact on the level of vehicle emissions in the area in the past 10+ years. Or do you disagree?

ETA - plug-in hybrids have only been around for a few years, so you are proving another point that charging infrastructure has been irrelevant for TFL's policies around low emissions and congestion that they have been crafting since before 2010.

Edited by braddo on Wednesday 21st October 22:52

iphonedyou

9,234 posts

156 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
quotequote all
Sulphur Man said:
Those who regularly charge these, or any PHEV, are in a massive minority.

The scales should be dashed from everyone's eyes - PHEVs exist to tap into the very favourable company lease rates for low emissions. The comparative success of the Mitsu Outlander PHEV was built on that. This is LR repeating that formula with more desirable vehicles.

I can confidently say the vast majority of these will be parked in the street overnight, no charging going on whatsoever. And no subscription to a charging network sitting with the owner either, as they wouldnt know where the charging point was (unless it comes with free convenient parking).
Having just handled the lease agreements for two new senior hires... I think you're right.

braddo

10,399 posts

187 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
quotequote all
iphonedyou said:
Sulphur Man said:
Those who regularly charge these, or any PHEV, are in a massive minority.

The scales should be dashed from everyone's eyes - PHEVs exist to tap into the very favourable company lease rates for low emissions. The comparative success of the Mitsu Outlander PHEV was built on that. This is LR repeating that formula with more desirable vehicles.

I can confidently say the vast majority of these will be parked in the street overnight, no charging going on whatsoever. And no subscription to a charging network sitting with the owner either, as they wouldnt know where the charging point was (unless it comes with free convenient parking).
Having just handled the lease agreements for two new senior hires... I think you're right.
A sample of two... scratchchin


85Carrera

3,503 posts

236 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
quotequote all
Is PistonHeads just retweeting PR puff verbatim now or can we expect any proper editorial continent any time soon?

DonkeyApple

54,919 posts

168 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
quotequote all
braddo said:
DonkeyApple said:
Uber didn’t even appear in London until 2012. The CC began nearly a decade before that and the green badge was just before it. While Uber has increased minicab usage we all remember the enormous proliferation of green badges that appeared in the run up to the CC launch. No idea on numbers but Zone 1 was riddled with minicabs long before Uber was even dreamt up and before the smart phone was invented. In the 90s, every other car anywhere there were bars were Moodys. Addison Lee opened its doors in 1975. wink

Hell, in the mid 90s I bought a Peugeot 405 as a cheap London car and every time I stopped at the lights a drunk would try and get in and demand I drive them home and every Black cab would try and run me off the road. biggrin

I doubt that there are any more minicabs on the road today than 20 years ago. However, the one thing that has changed is that they are all registered. Back in the 90s very few were even remotely legal. The CC was the big event that forced all the moody cabs to go legit so they could get the green disk and carry on operating.
You are talking about the regulation of minicabs from 15-25 years ago.

So if illegal minicabs were still at the same levels today, is that OK, and they're entitled to be dirtly old diesel stboxes?

The CC has had a massive impact on the level of vehicle emissions in the area in the past 10+ years. Or do you disagree?

ETA - plug-in hybrids have only been around for a few years, so you are proving another point that charging infrastructure has been irrelevant for TFL's policies around low emissions and congestion that they have been crafting since before 2010.

Edited by braddo on Wednesday 21st October 22:52
I do t think your dates are quite right. The Prius first appeared in 97. The second generation appeared in London as a direct result of the CC in 2003 or thereabouts. And it was because it was a means to avoid the CC.

I’m not quite sure of the point you are arguing but I am merely highlighting that hybrids have not been about for just a few years but over two decades and that minicabs didn’t suddenly appear because of Uber and smart phones but that they have comprised a very significant level of traffic in central London for at least three decades. The relevance of the CC in this regard was that prior to its existence the majority of minicabs in the zone were moody cabs so not on any register. It was the CC that specifically ended moodys and forced drivers to register. It was the purpose of the green disc system.

As for private cars, the Lexus 400h which was the Londoners preferred choice arrived in something like 2006, so again, not a few years ago but a decade and a half ago.

braddo

10,399 posts

187 months

Wednesday 21st October 2020
quotequote all
Minicab numbers in central London increased hugely with Uber. That is not controversial.

Priuses only became the quintessential minicab in about, say, 2008? Maybe 2010? Before that they were considered gimmicks and/or too expensive for minicab drivers.

Come on, you have to admit that the stty old dirty diesel Japanese hatchbacks (Nissans, Toyotas) that were the minicab staples have completely disappeared from London.

sidesauce

2,456 posts

217 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
JonnyVTEC said:
205007 said:
I8 Powertrain in a Disco - only took them 6 years to copy it!
Half price and double the seats. Bonus.
But much less distinctive looking and the i8 (although not the Roadster version) actually has four usable seats. Bonus removed.

Familymad

616 posts

216 months

Matt Bird

1,450 posts

204 months

PH Reportery Lad

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
Hi all,

Sorry about the ‘Defender Sport’ fk up - should read correctly now!


Matt

DonkeyApple

54,919 posts

168 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
braddo said:
Minicab numbers in central London increased hugely with Uber. That is not controversial.

Priuses only became the quintessential minicab in about, say, 2008? Maybe 2010? Before that they were considered gimmicks and/or too expensive for minicab drivers.

Come on, you have to admit that the stty old dirty diesel Japanese hatchbacks (Nissans, Toyotas) that were the minicab staples have completely disappeared from London.
There seems to be some confusion. I didn’t say Uber didn’t have an impact and I genuinely have no idea why I’m being asked to admit that old diesel minicabs have completely disappeared from London when I haven’t been saying anything to the contrary.

What I am pointing out is that hybrids aren’t a few years old and that minicabs didn’t appear on the back of Uber. And that your problem with minicab data is that until the CC the majority were moody so the data is a bit problematic.

On top of that we also know that the hybrid stuff doesn’t work too well when the vehicle runs double shifts, rarely being stationary or even if it is an owner operator vehicle and the owner happens to live in inner London with a driveway and religiously charges up their 30 mile range every day before driving 100 miles+ the next day.

The specific issue with Uber is that it has combined with massive excess spending capacity of people to lead to an army of people who summon modern slaves to feeey them pathetically short distances that no self respecting human wouldn’t have previously used their legs for.

For a city that understands the importance of ‘minimum tickets’ to get rid of unwanted business it does seem a bit of an oversight to regulate an activity and then fail to implement a tax that forces that.

But I can’t imagine the Disco Sport being ubered too much and with such a tiny petrol engine the target market will be much more about consumers who want to runnon electricity as opposed to those who want a petrol car that swerved some local taxes.

Speed1283

1,163 posts

94 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
Mouse Rat said:
Like most PHEVs these are ideal for short family trips.

Beyond that they are hopeless and only exist for low BIK and forced legislation.

Having 3 or 4 cylinders pulling 2 tonnes of landrover isn't nice.
Agreed.

I had the misfortune of being given a BMW X1 225e as a courtesy car last weekend, hateful thing that was given to me with an empty battery and no cable in the car to try home charging even from a standard wall socket. As it was, I had a 150 Mile motorway trip and it was hopeless, barely 40mpg (my 640d usually does towards 50mpg).

Tried charging at a car park near home, it took three hours even on a fast charger and got a mere 30 miles (at a cost of £3).

But it all made sense for the few local trips I then carried out, where it was easily averaging 80mpg depending how I drove it. With the engine in charging mode though the economy dropped to low 30s.

Will suit some but not my duty cycle.

DonkeyApple

54,919 posts

168 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
iphonedyou said:
Sulphur Man said:
Those who regularly charge these, or any PHEV, are in a massive minority.

The scales should be dashed from everyone's eyes - PHEVs exist to tap into the very favourable company lease rates for low emissions. The comparative success of the Mitsu Outlander PHEV was built on that. This is LR repeating that formula with more desirable vehicles.

I can confidently say the vast majority of these will be parked in the street overnight, no charging going on whatsoever. And no subscription to a charging network sitting with the owner either, as they wouldnt know where the charging point was (unless it comes with free convenient parking).
Having just handled the lease agreements for two new senior hires... I think you're right.
This is something that is in the middle of changing. There is absolutely no doubt that in parts of the UK the hybrid for many years was simply rented as a means to drive a petrol car with fewer taxes. Lexus sold an awful lot of SUVs into this space in places like London and appear today to be heavily marketing to the demographic that can’t charge or won’t charge.

But, hybrids are much smarter and consumer mindsets have evolved. You do now have people buying these and using tech like the satnav to help use the electric at the right time or place. And consumer are pushing for greater EV range because being able to drive locally on electric has become important to them.

This DS fits that new consumer mindset well as do many other new hybrids. Few are building hybrids purely and solely for the tax wheeze but having to factor in the market evolution that people do actually want to fill up overnight from their own driveway and take advantage of ultra low taxation on electricity in contrast to the ultra high taxation on petrol and that for local pottering the petrol engine is also at its least efficient so most expensive.

Limpet

6,292 posts

160 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
Sulphur Man said:
Those who regularly charge these, or any PHEV, are in a massive minority.

The scales should be dashed from everyone's eyes - PHEVs exist to tap into the very favourable company lease rates for low emissions. The comparative success of the Mitsu Outlander PHEV was built on that. This is LR repeating that formula with more desirable vehicles.

I can confidently say the vast majority of these will be parked in the street overnight, no charging going on whatsoever. And no subscription to a charging network sitting with the owner either, as they wouldnt know where the charging point was (unless it comes with free convenient parking).
Our company offers the 330e on the company car list. Of the dozen or so people I’ve spoken to who have one, not one plugs it in.

They all chose it for the BIK saving. Apparently it’s about £150 cheaper a month in BIK for a 40% taxpayer than a 320d would be.

Private buyers of course will be motivated differently, but I would agree there are a lot of PHEVs out there that don’t get plugged in, and as a result are likely to be less efficient and more polluting than a conventional equivalent in the real world. People will always gravitate toward tax efficiency.



Mouse Rat

1,798 posts

91 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
RUSSELLM said:
Mouse Rat said:
Like most PHEVs these are ideal for short family trips.

Beyond that they are hopeless and only exist for low BIK and forced legislation.

Having 3 or 4 cylinders pulling 2 tonnes of landrover isn't nice.
I gather that’s why they mated they engine to an electric motor and a HV battery.

I could swear it got a mention in the article.
The power and torque is fine on paper but at the end of the day these are still tiny engines in heavy cars. In reality at motoway speeds the engine will be harsh and at higher revs. Upon mild acceleration the gearbox will always go hunting.

DonkeyApple

54,919 posts

168 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
Speed1283 said:
Mouse Rat said:
Like most PHEVs these are ideal for short family trips.

Beyond that they are hopeless and only exist for low BIK and forced legislation.

Having 3 or 4 cylinders pulling 2 tonnes of landrover isn't nice.
Agreed.

I had the misfortune of being given a BMW X1 225e as a courtesy car last weekend, hateful thing that was given to me with an empty battery and no cable in the car to try home charging even from a standard wall socket. As it was, I had a 150 Mile motorway trip and it was hopeless, barely 40mpg (my 640d usually does towards 50mpg).

Tried charging at a car park near home, it took three hours even on a fast charger and got a mere 30 miles (at a cost of £3).

But it all made sense for the few local trips I then carried out, where it was easily averaging 80mpg depending how I drove it. With the engine in charging mode though the economy dropped to low 30s.

Will suit some but not my duty cycle.
We now have a really wide array of power plant types and combinations to select from and to get the best results you do have to choose the correct tool for the job. There are a lot of suburban cars that spend 95% of their life just doing the same short journeys day in, day out their entire life but that other 5% is long, anomalous runs. In those conditions it’s easy to compromise that 5% for a better 95%. Conversely, there are owners that plough up and down motorways every day, only doing a little bit of local driving at either end. The optimum tool for them would be something that prioritises that usage that could be a pure diesel, a pure EV if one happens to fit or a hybrid with a larger petrol engine etc.

The automotive sector is like a tool wall in a workshop and the person who walks up to it clearly needing a screwdriver but instead selects a hammer falls into two groups; they either made that choice deliberately because they are a loon (a typical car nut) or they are just thick as mince.

There are millions of consumers out there who are thick as mince but once you get to a goods price of £50k an awful lot of them are out of the equation and the majority of consumers will be of the type who is able to walk up to that tool wall needing a screwdriver and reach out and take a screwdriver.

I doubt many buyers of this car will be buying it to plough up and down motorways all day long. Most will be buying it either for the tax wheeze as before or because they know they do lots of local driving and can easily charge it up at home.

BeefMaster9000

82 posts

223 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
sidesauce said:
JonnyVTEC said:
205007 said:
I8 Powertrain in a Disco - only took them 6 years to copy it!
Half price and double the seats. Bonus.
But much less distinctive looking and the i8 (although not the Roadster version) actually has four usable seats. Bonus removed.
The Land Rover will let you transport bulky items, or a baying pack of labradors through mud, water and sand. Double bonus.

I8 is certainly ‘distinctive’ though.

Monkeylegend

26,226 posts

230 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
braddo said:
Monkeylegend said:
Well when you have got something like 70,000 licensed PH vehicles running around London most of which drive within the congestion charging area during their working day, you can understand why the owner/drivers would want to not have to pay the congestion charge, hence the proliferation of hybrids.

... charging capacity... charge his battery...

I blame TFL for lack of foresight ... fking idiots.
Your post is such a load of st, bks, rubbish, lies, ignorance, bias etc etc.

For a start, where is the evidence that 70,000 licenced PH vehicles drive into the congestion charge zone every day?

The proliferation of minicabs is because of Uber. Or more broadly, tech innovation. It has nothing to do with the congestion charge zone or emissions standards imposed by TFL.

If TFL hadn't imposed emissions standards in the congestion charge (CC) zone, the area would have been chock full of the cheap diesels that were minicab staples before the Prius. The issue of air pollution and particulates in central London would be FAR WORSE if it wasn't for TFL providing 'incentives' to push minicab drivers into hybrids. And note - TFL's policies predated plug-in hybrids, i.e. before there was any question of needing charging infrastructure.

It turns out TFL was ahead of the curve, not behind.

A separate issue - are there too many minicabs in greater London thanks to Uber? Yes. That is an entirely separate issue to hybirds and emissions and the main point of this thread, being Land Rover making some hybrids!!!
Yes, I apologise , it is nearer 90,000, plus another 21,000 or so black cabs.

Digga

40,201 posts

282 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
The Wookie said:
JonnyVTEC said:
You are right 27 miles a day of no fuel is a huge reduction in roadside emissions...

oh sorry you had somehow come to the opposite conclusion?
I bought the Panamera PHEV I had a stopgap vehicle with no consideration for it actually being a PHEV as I’m well outside the use case with a very short commute but lots of long journeys to suppliers and customers on top

Even with a poxy 11 mile range I couldn’t believe how much less fuel I was using. The thing would do low 30’s mpg on a longer run which was fine for a car of that weight and performance by itself, but I was averaging high 40’s in a typical week

Aside from the weight they really are a good halfway house, particularly for anyone that doesn’t like EVs
Agreed. These new LR products will work extremely well for the vast bulk of people, doing under 10k miles a year, who will charge them (at work or home overnight) and get 99% of their commuting or running around miles emissions free.

They then also work for the odd times you have to travel either at short notice (no charging possible), longer distance (no 200 mile range like a pure EV) or to places outside of the civilised charging network.

For a great many business and private users, these PHEVs will literally do it all.

Personally, I'd trade a bit of range for refinement and go for the Velar PHEV, but these two, new 3 cylinder cars look very well targeted IMHO. A colleague's already looking at one...


Nik Gnashers

756 posts

155 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
This has to be a paid advert.

I don't know anyone who would spend the massive amount of money these cost, to commute 27 miles a day, only to not be able to park it when you get to work because they are so big.
I work at a main dealership, and there are two charge points for the whole place, both of which are taken by sales people, two of which run pure EV's as their company cars. At least the cars in question where I work have an electric-only range of 280 miles each on average, and are not so massive that they can actually be parked in regular parking bay.

I can only see pure land rover / range rover fanatics buying these, because there are much MUCH better options for less money.

JonnyVTEC

3,000 posts

174 months

Thursday 22nd October 2020
quotequote all
Put the glue down.