SSC Tuatara Top Speed run apparently faked?
Discussion
SturdyHSV said:
buggalugs said:
The number of professional respected people who would need to go along with this is just too many imo,
if there is a genuine issue with the footage the most likley explanation is someone used the wrong footage for some reason, or the time base on the footage is wrong for some reason, recorded in one FPS and changed to another in editing without realising etc.
So many more likley explanations than a big cospiracy
To go full circle of conspiracy, a deliberate fps fudged 'mistake' would be execellent in so far as:if there is a genuine issue with the footage the most likley explanation is someone used the wrong footage for some reason, or the time base on the footage is wrong for some reason, recorded in one FPS and changed to another in editing without realising etc.
So many more likley explanations than a big cospiracy
a) video comes out, gains publicity
b) eventually it's guaranteed some nerd will do an 'anaylsis' on reddit, calling it as a fake, it will all add up as fake, gains loads more publicity
c) eventual press release once publicity is at fever pitch about how it was recorded at 30fps but played back at 24fps or some such because of youtube, and how this wouldn't be a problem with the 'driven app' or whatever product it is they're selling, plenty more publicity for brand and said app.
Tinfoil hats at the ready!
To be fair having seen the Shmee150 vid I do think they need to address these questions now. I still think it's not 100% settled either way, for example the critics are taking measurements of time off the vid which could be out for various reasons, and measurements of distance from google maps sattelite which again could be inacurate. They're only measuring a section of a few seconds so small errors will have a big effect on the numbers. Anyway whatevs. Address the questions, or do the run again with more observers, job jobbed...
https://youtu.be/-dfZNUVrQ1E
Dewetron seems to have commented on this youtube video 3 hours ago. They say they haven't analyzed the measurement data yet.
??
Dewetron seems to have commented on this youtube video 3 hours ago. They say they haven't analyzed the measurement data yet.
??
Aleckz85 said:
https://youtu.be/-dfZNUVrQ1E
Dewetron seems to have commented on this youtube video 3 hours ago. They say they haven't analyzed the measurement data yet.
??
SSC just keeps making obvious the whole thing is a fraud. Dewetron probably contacting lawyers as we speak lol Dewetron seems to have commented on this youtube video 3 hours ago. They say they haven't analyzed the measurement data yet.
??
https://cloud.dewetron.com/s/tJzr6HqrzcSZ2gG#pdfvi...
sdiggle said:
So was this just SSC making that statement then? Clearly the whole thing is bogus.-Z- said:
SSC just keeps making obvious the whole thing is a fraud. Dewetron probably contacting lawyers as we speak lol
https://cloud.dewetron.com/s/tJzr6HqrzcSZ2gG#pdfvi...
Hahahaha, 'calibration' mentioned specifically. This is so obviously off its getting laughable.https://cloud.dewetron.com/s/tJzr6HqrzcSZ2gG#pdfvi...
sdiggle said:
already seems daft that they've made this article WCZ said:
already seems daft that they've made this article
Bit strange for Motortrend to publish that as 'fact' when it appears as though the information didn't come from Dewetron directly. Other car news outlets then reported it (via Motortrend) but no source was ever given. At the very least they should have followed it up.The actual press release from SSC ( https://www.sscnorthamerica.com/news/dewetron-vali... is suitably vague. That would be like me putting a VBOX in my car and then issuing a press release claiming VBOX validated my land speed record attempt.
Edited by ch37 on Wednesday 28th October 15:59
This thread makes me quite 'sad' for 2 reasons:
- that something that would be quite remarkable, properly David vs Goliath, may well turn out to be 'fake news'
- on an enthusiasts website there appears to be glee that this is an attempt at fakery (or even questioning "what's the point?")
- that something that would be quite remarkable, properly David vs Goliath, may well turn out to be 'fake news'
- on an enthusiasts website there appears to be glee that this is an attempt at fakery (or even questioning "what's the point?")
I usually hate conspiracy theories and people that post them, but the evidence here is damning as is the silence from SSC. All they have to do is post the raw video, the raw telemetry data and the full car gearing specs - but I'm betting they won't, because it will prove this was a sham.
WCZ said:
sdiggle said:
already seems daft that they've made this article SSC said:
"Somehow, there was a mixup on the editing side, and I regret to admit that the SSC team hadn't double checked the accuracy of the video before it was released. We also hadn't realized that not one, but two different cockpit videos existed, and were shared with the world"
dredge said:
WCZ said:
sdiggle said:
already seems daft that they've made this article SSC said:
"Somehow, there was a mixup on the editing side, and I regret to admit that the SSC team hadn't double checked the accuracy of the video before it was released. We also hadn't realized that not one, but two different cockpit videos existed, and were shared with the world"
The Spruce Goose said:
why blur the speedo though?
Perhaps because it was under reading when they switched to the 2.92 final drive ratio?Complete stab in the dark, i have no idea how the speedo picks up the signal, either via ABS rings or other mechanical means or GPS
Edited by Shinysideup on Wednesday 28th October 18:45
Shinysideup said:
Perhaps because it was under reading when they switched to the 2.92 final drive ratio?
Complete stab in the dark, i have no idea how the speedo picks up the signal, either via ABS rings or other mechanical means or GPS
That final drive they are now claiming isn't one supplied by CIMA the gearbox makers. The final drive they do make which is 3.11 *exactly* matches the calculated speeds as per the Misha video. This can't be a coincidence, they are blatantly claiming whatever final drive ratio to match the false speeds. Complete stab in the dark, i have no idea how the speedo picks up the signal, either via ABS rings or other mechanical means or GPS
Edited by Shinysideup on Wednesday 28th October 18:45
Still not buying it.
Lots of words, but no actually meaningful information such as addressing why the distance markers and GPS readout don't even remotely match up unless that road has shrunk or someone has played with the laws of space and time. "Timing, syncing and coding issues", of course.
I think unless SSC release a proper video that hasn't been muddled with and supporting GPS data, they aren't being believed on this one.
Lots of words, but no actually meaningful information such as addressing why the distance markers and GPS readout don't even remotely match up unless that road has shrunk or someone has played with the laws of space and time. "Timing, syncing and coding issues", of course.
I think unless SSC release a proper video that hasn't been muddled with and supporting GPS data, they aren't being believed on this one.
SSC said:
Update Two, 10/28: In response to the controversy, SSC CEO Jerod Shelby has released this additional, lengthy statement:
On October 10, 2020, SSC North America realized a dream that was a decade in the making, when our Tuatara hypercar achieved an average top speed of 316.11 MPH. In the days since, there has been a swirl of interest and speculation about how and whether the Tuatara had achieved that speed.
The good news: we did it, and the numbers are indeed on our side.
The bad news: only after the fact [emphasis SSC's—Ed. ] did we realize that the depiction of the speed run, in video form, had been substantially incorrect.
The following is a long explanation of what and how this happened, to the extent we now know. I hope it will serve to build trust in the SSC team, and in the exceptional feat the Tuatara has earned.
The Video
Three years ago, SSC began working with Driven Studios, a video team to document what seemed like every waking moment of the Tuatara hypercar and those who've created it.
They've since interviewed virtually every team member and consultant, captured the car in build and throughout extensive testing, and have played a key role in not only capturing, but in producing the record run on October 10 in Pahrump, Nevada. They have become a trusted partner of the SSC family.
On the big day, October 10, there were video cameras everywhere—in the cockpit, on the ground, and even secured on a helicopter a low-flying T33 to capture the car at speed.
The morning of the run, the record was achieved, we were over the moon. We kept the news under embargo until October 19, with hopes of releasing a video to accompany the press release.
On October 19, the day the news broke, we thought [emphasis SSC's—Ed. ] there were two videos that had been released—one from the cockpit, with data of the speed run overlaid, and another video of b-roll running footage. The cockpit video was shared with Top Gear, as well as on the SSC and Driven+ YouTube pages.
Somehow, there was a mixup on the editing side, and I regret to admit that the SSC team hadn't double checked the accuracy of the video before it was released. We also hadn't realized that not one, but two different cockpit videos existed, and were shared with the world.
Hypercar fans have quickly cried foul, and we hadn't immediately responded, because we had not realized the inconsistencies—that there were two videos, each with inaccurate information—that had been shared. This was not our intention. Like me, the head of the production team had not initially realized these issues, and has brought on technical partners to identify the cause of the inconsistency.
At first glance, it appears that the videos released have differences in where the editors had overlaid the data logger (which displays speed), in relation to the car's location on the run. That variance in 'sync points' accounts for differing records of the run.
While we had never intended for the video captured to play the role of legitimizing the run, we are regretful that the videos shared were not an accurate representation of what happened on October 10.
Driven Studios does have extensive footage of everything that transpired and is working with SSC to release the actual footage in its simplest form. We'll share that as soon as it's available.
The Car
On the day of the speed run, SSC used Dewetron equipment to track the Tuatara, and verify its speed, as measured by an average of 15 satellites across the two runs. We chose Dewetron for the sophistication of its equipment, and using that has given us confidence in the accuracy of the car's measured speed.
People have sought additional details, which hadn't provided in earlier press materials, and those technical specifications are listed below:
Tuatara (Top Speed Model) Tech Specs
Ratios/Speed, using the 2.92 final-drive ratio
Gear Ratios/Top Speed (Gears 1-6 have 8,800 RPM REV LIMIT)
1st Gear: 3.133 / 80.56 MPH
2nd Gear: 2.100 / 120.18 MPH
3rd Gear: 1.520 / 166.04 MPH
4th Gear: 1.172 / 215.34 MPH
5th Gear: .941 / 268.21 MPH
6th Gear: .757 / 333.4 MPH @ 8800*
7th Gear: .625 / 353.33 MPH (Estimated max @7,700RPM in 7th gear - Designed as mainly an overdrive highway cruising gear)
Aerodynamic Specs:
Drag goes from 0.279 up to 0.314 at 311mph (500kph)
Car is producing approx. 770lbs of downforce at 311mph
It is calculated that car needs 1,473 HP to achieve 311 mph (500 kph)
In order to calculate the required power the following assumptions were made:
The rolling resistance coefficient of the tires has been obtained from the manufacturer (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2) declared energy class: E.
The overall drivetrain efficiency (from crankshaft to wheel) has been set to 94%.
The air density has been set to 1,205 kg/m3 (which is found at 20°C at sea level).
The vehicle mass has been set to 1474 kg = 1384 kg curb weight + 90 kg driver.
Tires:
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2
Rear Tire Diameter / Circumference: 345/30ZR20
Normal Running Pressure = 35psi
88.5" Circumference
28.185" Diameter
WORLD RECORD RUNNING PRESSURE = 49psi
89.125" Circumference
28.38" Diameter
How the Speed Was Measured
The SSC team received a piece of Dewetron equipment for its use in the speed run. The SSC team was trained remotely (due to COVID) on the use of that equipment.
The Dewetron equipment includes sensors placed in the vehicle, that tracked an average of 15 satellites over the course of the Tuatara top speed run.
Two independent witnesses, not affiliated with SSC nor Dewetron, were on site to view the speeds measured by the Dewetron equipment. SSC intends to submit proof of what those witnesses had seen on the Dewetron equipment to Guinness for verification.
On October 22, Dewetron sent a letter to SSC confirming the accuracy of the equipment and speed sensor they had provided to SSC, and that letter will also be submitted to Guinness as part of application for the world top speed record.
As an additional step, SSC is in the process of submitting the Dewetron equipment and speed sensor for further analysis and verification of that equipment's accuracy.
On October 10, 2020, SSC North America realized a dream that was a decade in the making, when our Tuatara hypercar achieved an average top speed of 316.11 MPH. In the days since, there has been a swirl of interest and speculation about how and whether the Tuatara had achieved that speed.
The good news: we did it, and the numbers are indeed on our side.
The bad news: only after the fact [emphasis SSC's—Ed. ] did we realize that the depiction of the speed run, in video form, had been substantially incorrect.
The following is a long explanation of what and how this happened, to the extent we now know. I hope it will serve to build trust in the SSC team, and in the exceptional feat the Tuatara has earned.
The Video
Three years ago, SSC began working with Driven Studios, a video team to document what seemed like every waking moment of the Tuatara hypercar and those who've created it.
They've since interviewed virtually every team member and consultant, captured the car in build and throughout extensive testing, and have played a key role in not only capturing, but in producing the record run on October 10 in Pahrump, Nevada. They have become a trusted partner of the SSC family.
On the big day, October 10, there were video cameras everywhere—in the cockpit, on the ground, and even secured on a helicopter a low-flying T33 to capture the car at speed.
The morning of the run, the record was achieved, we were over the moon. We kept the news under embargo until October 19, with hopes of releasing a video to accompany the press release.
On October 19, the day the news broke, we thought [emphasis SSC's—Ed. ] there were two videos that had been released—one from the cockpit, with data of the speed run overlaid, and another video of b-roll running footage. The cockpit video was shared with Top Gear, as well as on the SSC and Driven+ YouTube pages.
Somehow, there was a mixup on the editing side, and I regret to admit that the SSC team hadn't double checked the accuracy of the video before it was released. We also hadn't realized that not one, but two different cockpit videos existed, and were shared with the world.
Hypercar fans have quickly cried foul, and we hadn't immediately responded, because we had not realized the inconsistencies—that there were two videos, each with inaccurate information—that had been shared. This was not our intention. Like me, the head of the production team had not initially realized these issues, and has brought on technical partners to identify the cause of the inconsistency.
At first glance, it appears that the videos released have differences in where the editors had overlaid the data logger (which displays speed), in relation to the car's location on the run. That variance in 'sync points' accounts for differing records of the run.
While we had never intended for the video captured to play the role of legitimizing the run, we are regretful that the videos shared were not an accurate representation of what happened on October 10.
Driven Studios does have extensive footage of everything that transpired and is working with SSC to release the actual footage in its simplest form. We'll share that as soon as it's available.
The Car
On the day of the speed run, SSC used Dewetron equipment to track the Tuatara, and verify its speed, as measured by an average of 15 satellites across the two runs. We chose Dewetron for the sophistication of its equipment, and using that has given us confidence in the accuracy of the car's measured speed.
People have sought additional details, which hadn't provided in earlier press materials, and those technical specifications are listed below:
Tuatara (Top Speed Model) Tech Specs
Ratios/Speed, using the 2.92 final-drive ratio
Gear Ratios/Top Speed (Gears 1-6 have 8,800 RPM REV LIMIT)
1st Gear: 3.133 / 80.56 MPH
2nd Gear: 2.100 / 120.18 MPH
3rd Gear: 1.520 / 166.04 MPH
4th Gear: 1.172 / 215.34 MPH
5th Gear: .941 / 268.21 MPH
6th Gear: .757 / 333.4 MPH @ 8800*
7th Gear: .625 / 353.33 MPH (Estimated max @7,700RPM in 7th gear - Designed as mainly an overdrive highway cruising gear)
- FYI: Cross reference validations from data log
Aerodynamic Specs:
Drag goes from 0.279 up to 0.314 at 311mph (500kph)
Car is producing approx. 770lbs of downforce at 311mph
It is calculated that car needs 1,473 HP to achieve 311 mph (500 kph)
In order to calculate the required power the following assumptions were made:
The rolling resistance coefficient of the tires has been obtained from the manufacturer (Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2) declared energy class: E.
The overall drivetrain efficiency (from crankshaft to wheel) has been set to 94%.
The air density has been set to 1,205 kg/m3 (which is found at 20°C at sea level).
The vehicle mass has been set to 1474 kg = 1384 kg curb weight + 90 kg driver.
Tires:
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2
Rear Tire Diameter / Circumference: 345/30ZR20
Normal Running Pressure = 35psi
88.5" Circumference
28.185" Diameter
WORLD RECORD RUNNING PRESSURE = 49psi
89.125" Circumference
28.38" Diameter
How the Speed Was Measured
The SSC team received a piece of Dewetron equipment for its use in the speed run. The SSC team was trained remotely (due to COVID) on the use of that equipment.
The Dewetron equipment includes sensors placed in the vehicle, that tracked an average of 15 satellites over the course of the Tuatara top speed run.
Two independent witnesses, not affiliated with SSC nor Dewetron, were on site to view the speeds measured by the Dewetron equipment. SSC intends to submit proof of what those witnesses had seen on the Dewetron equipment to Guinness for verification.
On October 22, Dewetron sent a letter to SSC confirming the accuracy of the equipment and speed sensor they had provided to SSC, and that letter will also be submitted to Guinness as part of application for the world top speed record.
As an additional step, SSC is in the process of submitting the Dewetron equipment and speed sensor for further analysis and verification of that equipment's accuracy.
- They've promised the actual footage
- If the telemetry was uploaded onto the wrong vid, all the calcs on medians and cacti that give lower speeds are redundant
- Changing a FD is hardly a preposterous proposition and I don't understand why people were claiming for a fact that it must be something that made the speed they achieved impossible
- A cock up of overlaying the telemetry onto the wrong vid seems more plausible than trying to deceive everybody with telemetry that shows a car doing 30mph when it's barely crawling
- They've gained way more publicity this way
The whole thing is obviously very strange. If this was happening as it appears on the surface I'm almost certain SSC would have been straight out to verify their data/release the real video. No company in their right mind would want any period of doubt to linger following this sort of thing.
They haven't done this which clearly raises a lot more suspicion.
To my mind either this is all being done on purpose, shmmee and the like have been used to drum up interest, and they're waiting for the opportune time to finally release the correct video and relevant telemetry.
Or, it's actually completely fake and they're now just trying to buy time in figuring out how to explain away all the questions, which would seem to tally which the odd language used, and wierdness going on in the video with blurring Speedos etc.
Surely no company is naive enough to think they'd get away with this, unless it's literally the last roll of the dice before the company otherwise hits the wall.
They haven't done this which clearly raises a lot more suspicion.
To my mind either this is all being done on purpose, shmmee and the like have been used to drum up interest, and they're waiting for the opportune time to finally release the correct video and relevant telemetry.
Or, it's actually completely fake and they're now just trying to buy time in figuring out how to explain away all the questions, which would seem to tally which the odd language used, and wierdness going on in the video with blurring Speedos etc.
Surely no company is naive enough to think they'd get away with this, unless it's literally the last roll of the dice before the company otherwise hits the wall.
From my digging around today, they built their last Ultimate Aero in 2012, so no real income for the past 8 years, and were sued last year for failing to pay the developer on their new manufacturing facility. https://www.tricitiesbusinessnews.com/2019/05/ssc-... . I can't find a current address for the business. In an interview from a couple of months ago, Jerod said they had deposits for about 20 of the planned 100 car production run of the Tuatara. Sounds like a desperate last attempt to save the company.
Pommy said:
On the response from SSC that the wrong video was uploaded (using what they say is the right telemetry video), why did the driver do a few celebratory fist pumps if that wasn't actually the video of the record run?...
Possibly an earlier run. Could have broken the record marginally for the first time in the day, even if there was more to give and he knew he'd be doing more runs I know I'd be pretty chuffed with it.Been following Webb for a while on instagram and he does like to play up to the cameras a bit (Don't blame him he's not too shabby behind a wheel hahaha) so he it might just be a mix of that and adrenaline. From the reports of how it was acting at high speeds, I wouldn't be surprised if he's just celebrating being able to slow down lol
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