RE: The best electric cars to buy in 2021

[PH User]

cowbit said:

Another saga. 10 posts a day for the last 11 years, don’t you have anything else to do?

What would you read on here if it wasn't for regular posters?

[danp]

DonkeyApple said:

Correct. It is based on direct experience because to get into the centre of London an EV has distinct advantages as well advantages for local use. At present only a Tesla S fits the bill of allowing that with ease, not having to stop, detour, change driving style or seek special parking. The Taycan doesn't and the key point here that is being made is that it is a product whose image and intent overtly clashes with reality. Having now done the journey in both cars I am of the same opinion as the other people who live in the two locations that the Tesla is currently the only EV that allows a seemless switch and isn't pretending to be something it isn't.

I’m surprised that you found the Tesla much better in terms of range, have been lots of articles on how the reality is that the Taycan is actually pretty good (despite the comparative EPA/WLTP numbers).

Seems Tesla games the tests very well whereas Porsche ended up doing the opposite as it was in a hurry to get it out the door.

https://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/32868/how-i-got-...

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-rang...

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a33824052/ad...

Edited by danp on Friday 9th April 12:48

[DonkeyApple]

chrispmartha said:

So you think the Taycan has poor range.

Fine, don’t buy one then, not sure why you need to throw words like Bigot around. There are plenty of people that obviously don’t share your view that the range is an issue id say bar Teslas its one of the EVs I see the most.

Yes the charging network needs improvement but you seem to be suggesting a 200mile trip is some kind of major inconvenience or not possible when it clearly is.

Ok, you've still missed the point that is being made. The slowly improving charging network isn't the issue. I am merely attempting to highlight that when you spend a large sum of money on a car you want the convenience of not needing that network. That's where the Tesla S scores big. On top of that, I am highlighting that if you make a high end car that is purporting to be a high performance, long range, luxury GT then it's inability to easily do round trips without any inconvenience is stepped up as a result of that image. It has nothing to do with the drivetrain but the object that it is packaged in that introduces the flaw. It's that simple.

Personally I don't subscribe at all to the argument that there is a shortage of any kind of charging network. The network will simply grow at the rate that the number of EVs grows. They've even got them in Tesco's in affluent areas where people can afford EVs. As the cost of EVs continues to fall then more and more chargers will simply appear. As far as I'm concerned the argument over the lack of chargers is as specious as the argument that people need to drive from lands end to John groats without stopping.

[JonnyVTEC]

Convience is luxury? Good job most people with the luxury can fill up at home then, quite right. Having to go to a dedicated fuelling station for every single fill is inconvenient in my experience now - utter tedious chore.

[chrispmartha]

DonkeyApple said:

chrispmartha said:

So you think the Taycan has poor range.

Fine, don’t buy one then, not sure why you need to throw words like Bigot around. There are plenty of people that obviously don’t share your view that the range is an issue id say bar Teslas its one of the EVs I see the most.

Yes the charging network needs improvement but you seem to be suggesting a 200mile trip is some kind of major inconvenience or not possible when it clearly is.

Ok, you've still missed the point that is being made. The slowly improving charging network isn't the issue. I am merely attempting to highlight that when you spend a large sum of money on a car you want the convenience of not needing that network. That's where the Tesla S scores big. On top of that, I am highlighting that if you make a high end car that is purporting to be a high performance, long range, luxury GT then it's inability to easily do round trips without any inconvenience is stepped up as a result of that image. It has nothing to do with the drivetrain but the object that it is packaged in that introduces the flaw. It's that simple.

Personally I don't subscribe at all to the argument that there is a shortage of any kind of charging network. The network will simply grow at the rate that the number of EVs grows. They've even got them in Tesco's in affluent areas where people can afford EVs. As the cost of EVs continues to fall then more and more chargers will simply appear. As far as I'm concerned the argument over the lack of chargers is as specious as the argument that people need to drive from lands end to John groats without stopping.

Again fine, you think Porsche are overselling the features of the car and it's flawed (I personally think you're over playing the inconvenience part) Im just curious as to why you threw pejoratives like Bigot about?

[DonkeyApple]

JonnyVTEC said:

Convience is luxury? Good job most people with the luxury can fill up at home then, quite right. Having to go to a dedicated fuelling station for every single fill is inconvenient in my experience now - utter tedious chore.

Your point being? Arguably, that like some others you've missed the point.

[cowbit]

DonkeyApple said:

Please accept my sincerest apologies for daring to discuss a minor point or to attempt to correct those who have misunderstood said point.

Apology accepted. Just have a think sometimes, you can’t always be right, can you?

[JonnyVTEC]

DonkeyApple said:

Your point being? Arguably, that like some others you've missed the point.

Just contributing if that’s okay with you?

[DonkeyApple]

cowbit said:

DonkeyApple said:

Please accept my sincerest apologies for daring to discuss a minor point or to attempt to correct those who have misunderstood said point.

Apology accepted. Just have a think sometimes, you can’t always be right, can you?

Indeed but as no one has actually countered the actual point I was making then in this instance I obviously am.

[DonkeyApple]

danp said:

I’m surprised that you found the Tesla much better in terms of range, have been lots of articles on how the reality is that the Taycan is actually pretty good (despite the comparative EPA/WLTP numbers).

Seems Tesla games the tests very well whereas Porsche ended up doing the opposite as it was in a hurry to get it out the door.

https://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/32868/how-i-got-...

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-rang...

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a33824052/ad...

Edited by danp on Friday 9th April 12:48

The key is that one is a pretty mundane executive saloon whereas the other is a performance GT that exists to be hooned a bit but has the slight issue that if you use for what the badge and product is intended the already lower range ends up being restrictive. That's the point that I am making. I much prefer the Taycan to the S, by a very large margin but It's currently writing cheques it can't cash. Even the Audi SUV is acceptable because you know it's just a runabout/commuter car and not trying to be something it isn't.

[SWoll]

DonkeyApple said:

danp said:

I’m surprised that you found the Tesla much better in terms of range, have been lots of articles on how the reality is that the Taycan is actually pretty good (despite the comparative EPA/WLTP numbers).

Seems Tesla games the tests very well whereas Porsche ended up doing the opposite as it was in a hurry to get it out the door.

https://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/32868/how-i-got-...

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-rang...

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a33824052/ad...

Edited by danp on Friday 9th April 12:48

The key is that one is a pretty mundane executive saloon whereas the other is a performance GT that exists to be hooned a bit but has the slight issue that if you use for what the badge and product is intended the already lower range ends up being restrictive. That's the point that I am making. I much prefer the Taycan to the S, by a very large margin but It's currently writing cheques it can't cash. Even the Audi SUV is acceptable because you know it's just a runabout/commuter car and not trying to be something it isn't.

Surely that is just your perception based on the brand rather than the reality? The Taycan is also a large 4 door saloon car, not a 911 replacement?

[ExecutiveAction]

jjwilde said:

Jesus Christ. Imagine digging up this thread only to post the old hydrogen nonsense, then try to push some sketchy anti-EV guff.

Hey Mr Ian Morris perhaps you'd like to tell us how hydrogen is made and how much energy that requires...

Nuclear fusion is coming and so is hydrogen fuel cell. Nothing old about it. The current batteries will be redundant technology within 10 years.

[DonkeyApple]

ExecutiveAction said:

Nuclear fusion is coming and so is hydrogen fuel cell. Nothing old about it. The current batteries will be redundant technology within 10 years.

Two completely disparate statements however.

[otolith]

ifmorris said:

Let's not lose sight of the Chinese grip over the manufacture of the batteries, they own a large part of the raw materials. We may well make batteries in the UK but an amount of the base materials will be bought from companies under Chinese control.
I hope that ultimately the battery will be dumped in favour of the hydrogen fuel cell. The experience of building electric transmissions will not be wasted and should continue.
I will not be buying a battery car and sticking to diesel, just had 5 yrs with a Maserati Ghibli with a beautiful 6 cyl one which easily topped 40 mpg. I also believe the ic engine could be further cleaned up.
Remember battery cars still consume energy none of which is entirely carbon free. Much more to say on battery disposal etc, but another time!

Ian Morris CEng FIMechE

As an engineer, what is your opinion of the unavoidably horrendous grid-to-wheels energy inefficiency of using hydrogen fuel cells?

[dhutch]

Capt. Howdy said:

...Polestar - quite impressive...

But not in the list? Odd.

[TaylGre123]

I really like electric cars from Tesla and Jaguar, I really want to drive them. I'm also waiting for Mercedes to start actively selling their cars. I'm very curious to look at their EQS, it has to be a masterpiece, although I can never afford it. People are increasingly switching to electric cars or hybrids, although this was not possible for another 10 years. I hadn't thought about the importance of switching to electric cars before, but then we studied it in college. We were given the task of writing a short essay, but I did not have the opportunity to do it myself. I used https://phdessay.com/free-essays-on/electric-cars/ to write this work quickly and efficiently with the help of professional writers. I did not think that they could do my job so quickly, the more I got a good grade for this work. After that, I use this service several times a year, because there are cases when I can not do the work myself, and I do not want to lose my points.

Edited by TaylGre123 on Wednesday 24th November 11:32

[anonymous-user]

ExecutiveAction said:

Nuclear fusion is coming and so is hydrogen fuel cell. Nothing old about it. The current batteries will be redundant technology within 10 years.

Both of those ^^^ energy storage mediums require battery storage in order to actually work in a dynamic environment. So batteries are not in any way going to become redundant (quite the opposite in fact because the high costs of those two technologies means cost savings will have to be found else where to maintain any valid business case for the product....)

[otolith]

Nuclear fusion is the energy source of the future, has been for more than half a century, suspect it still will be in half a century to come.

Tomorrow, tomorrow
I love ya tomorrow
You're always a day away

[GT9]

otolith said:

ifmorris said:

Let's not lose sight of the Chinese grip over the manufacture of the batteries, they own a large part of the raw materials. We may well make batteries in the UK but an amount of the base materials will be bought from companies under Chinese control.
I hope that ultimately the battery will be dumped in favour of the hydrogen fuel cell. The experience of building electric transmissions will not be wasted and should continue.
I will not be buying a battery car and sticking to diesel, just had 5 yrs with a Maserati Ghibli with a beautiful 6 cyl one which easily topped 40 mpg. I also believe the ic engine could be further cleaned up.
Remember battery cars still consume energy none of which is entirely carbon free. Much more to say on battery disposal etc, but another time!

Ian Morris CEng FIMechE

As an engineer, what is your opinion of the unavoidably horrendous grid-to-wheels energy inefficiency of using hydrogen fuel cells?

I realise I'm responding to a 6 month old post but it's funny how quickly these anti-EV posts date isn't it.

Not buying a battery so I can stick with diesel...
Excellent way to keep pushing speed limits down and the push to banish cars from town centres.

Chinese stranglehold....
Hoping to replace batteries with carbon fibre fuel tanks, a smaller battery and a fuel cell.
Yet both approaches rely on Chinese raw materials.

Carbon footprint.....
Producing 300 kg of fuel cell/air pump/battery/carbon fibre tanks vs 400-500kg of batteries.

Whilst there may be a small benefit for the former, the problem comes when you then add on the additional upstream production and distribution of electricity to overcome the inefficiency conundrum as well as the non-existent hydrogen production, distribution and refuelling network. All of which comes with a huge upfront carbon footprint to manufacture and install all of the extra plant and equipment required.

Which one actually has a higher footprint at system level?

End-of-life disposal....
80 % of a Li-ion EV battery can be recycled with a combination of mechanical and hydrometallurgical recycling processes. 95% of the valuable metals from the battery black mass can be recovered.

As far as I know carbon fibre hydrogen fuel tanks are not likely to ever be recyclable, and these can weigh up to 100 kg per vehicle. Tank life is limited to 10-15 years.

Moving goalposts....
In the time it would take to bring a widespread hydrogen option to the market, batteries are likely to move to solid-state and/or higher energy densities. Hydrogen storage technology for in-vehicle storage may also improve, but the efficiency conundrum is a forever thing.

Sure, hydrogen might make some inroads into special-purpose passenger cars, but there is just no way this will be a wholesale shift from batteries. It would be way too expensive to install and operate (to the tune of many hundreds of billions of pounds), comes with a huge upfront carbon footprint, and all for what? To overcome charging/range/recycling concerns that will in all probability have evaporated in the decade or so it would take for the hydrogen technology to gain enough technological maturity, funding and political support. And that's ignoring the huge lead times for the additional electricity generating/hydrogen production/distribution/refuelling infrastructure required.