ICE ban clouds on the horizon. Are you out?

[Psycho Warren]

Whats with the additional practice hours? Most people i grew up with either learned with the parents or fully with a driving school rather than a mix, and 40 hours TOTAL was the typical needed to pass.

The current test is not much harder at all. Slightly different but not harder. So don't see where the extra practice is needed? (desirable obviously).

[otolith]

And that's on average - as a first approximation, half the population are spending less than that and half are spending more.

And it assumes that the twenty odd hours of additional practice is done free of charge in a private car.

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

That's just a bizarre state of mind to be honest. What actual, viable benefit would that even serve you?

Surely the logic is to opt for whichever fuel best suits your needs whether in usage terms, tax terms or simple cost terms?

Why would you doggedly stick to something if there is an alternative that is cheaper and easier?

At the moment the cheaper and easier option for most people is petrol but it's clear to see that for some who are able to take advantage of the benefits that exist to date the EV is the cheaper and easier option but more importantly we can also clearly see that the switch point between the two firms of fuel is moving on a monthly basis, ever expanding the group for which the EV is the cheaper, easier option.

The big step change in the UK that will arguably see the number of pure EVs double over the next 12/18 months (albeit it from a very small base) is the BIK saving. It's suddenly rather obvious that someone who has a driveway, has another car, has pretty predictable usage patterns and whose job grants then a car allowance/company car in the value region where EVs are would switch and take those savings?

How would doggedly insisting on paying much more money than you need to for no material gain be a sane life long choice to make?

What is going to happen when the EV product eventually becomes viable in the segment where you buy your cars? What happens when your peers are all taking advantage of EVs? Are you geneuinely going to be there doggedly refusing to take advantage and forcing yourself to spend ever greater amounts of money for a product that is blocked from more and more destinations? That would be mental. Are you mental?

I'll continue to enjoy the driving experience no matter the cost, whilst everyone else is driving around in autonomous vehicles that track your every move.

Have fun.

NDA said:

Really?

I like petrol cars too and have had some very fast ones - I still have a pair of V8's to keep our Autumns warm. But I think it would be rather narrow minded to say 'you wouldn't catch me dead in one'. You should try one - they're quick, easy to own and cheap to run. I doubt you'd catch me in one. If you see what I mean.

Unfortunately not my thing. I like the sound of an engine. You of all people should understand that, owning V8's.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 26th February 11:04

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 26th February 11:05

[bigothunter]

FourWheelDrift said:

No one has yet come up with a solution to charging parked on-road EVs overnight, if you can't park outside your own house how do you charge up an EV. You can't have cables up and down the path as they are a trip hazard and you can't trust anyone not to unplug the car overnight. So what will they do?

This 2030 target for new cars only being EV is short-sighted and I do predict it to slip to a later date and any new ICE ban taking longer.

Yes they have - it's called inductive charging via plates embedded in the road. This technology can be applied statically or dynamically including driving along motorways. However there are problems of lower energy transfer efficiency and high installation costs making hard cables the preferred solution.

2030 is the date for all new cars sold in UK being EV or ICE hybrids. Hybrids include simple regenerative braking systems termed 'Mild Hybrids' which will be standard on all new ICE cars in 2030. Date for exclusive new BEVs is 2035.

So why is everyone focussed on 2030?

[bigothunter]

Super_G said:

I’m going to sound really thick here but do you reckon that level of automation could include self-charging? As in... I have a robot mower that takes itself off to it’s charging base... so a car could go to it’s dedicated charging hub and inclement weather aside, make it’s way back to the owner? Might not be ideal for emergencies though.

Indeed why not?

[SWoll]

bigothunter said:

FourWheelDrift said:

No one has yet come up with a solution to charging parked on-road EVs overnight, if you can't park outside your own house how do you charge up an EV. You can't have cables up and down the path as they are a trip hazard and you can't trust anyone not to unplug the car overnight. So what will they do?

This 2030 target for new cars only being EV is short-sighted and I do predict it to slip to a later date and any new ICE ban taking longer.

Yes they have - it's called inductive charging via plates embedded in the road. This technology can be applied statically or dynamically including driving along motorways. However there are problems of lower energy transfer efficiency and high installation costs making hard cables the preferred solution.

2030 is the date for all new cars sold in UK being EV or ICE hybrids. Hybrids include simple regenerative braking systems termed 'Mild Hybrids' which will be standard on all new ICE cars in 2030. Date for exclusive new BEVs is 2035.

So why is everyone focussed on 2030?

Because even mild hybridisation is a change from what people are used to? I'd also assume that by 2030 it's going to be a lot less mild than at present?

[bigothunter]

otolith said:

The average number of lessons now is 45, at £25-£30 per hour. Plus 22 hours of practice, which not everyone can do informally.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/learning-to-dri...

Average of 45 lessons - wow But £25-£30 per hour is cheap

I had 3 lessons including an hour before the test, which I passed. But that was back in the dark ages when any muppet was allowed to drive

[Blu3R]

bigothunter said:

otolith said:

The average number of lessons now is 45, at £25-£30 per hour. Plus 22 hours of practice, which not everyone can do informally.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/learning-to-dri...

Average of 45 lessons - wow But £25-£30 per hour is cheap

I had 3 lessons including an hour before the test, which I passed. But that was back in the dark ages when any muppet was allowed to drive

That's exactly what I had. 3x half hour lessons and an hour before the test - in East London. During a lunch hour.
My first lesson was on 1st March and I passed on 30th May.
Had my 1st accident within 24hrs too so maybe they're more expensive now for a reason

[bigothunter]

SWoll said:

bigothunter said:

FourWheelDrift said:

No one has yet come up with a solution to charging parked on-road EVs overnight, if you can't park outside your own house how do you charge up an EV. You can't have cables up and down the path as they are a trip hazard and you can't trust anyone not to unplug the car overnight. So what will they do?

This 2030 target for new cars only being EV is short-sighted and I do predict it to slip to a later date and any new ICE ban taking longer.

Yes they have - it's called inductive charging via plates embedded in the road. This technology can be applied statically or dynamically including driving along motorways. However there are problems of lower energy transfer efficiency and high installation costs making hard cables the preferred solution.

2030 is the date for all new cars sold in UK being EV or ICE hybrids. Hybrids include simple regenerative braking systems termed 'Mild Hybrids' which will be standard on all new ICE cars in 2030. Date for exclusive new BEVs is 2035.

So why is everyone focussed on 2030?

Because even mild hybridisation is a change from what people are used to? I'd also assume that by 2030 it's going to be a lot less mild than at present?

Doubt whether most drivers would actually notice the subtle regen braking of mild hybrids. This extra feature will become normal just like ABS. If legislation recognises that mild hybrids comply, manufacturers will be happy to continue making and selling them (£££).

[Simon-mx4zh]

How long will it be before the Anti-Fox Hunters move on to slashing ICE SUV tryes in the Carpark?

And when will ULEZ/ Parking Permits for ICE become unaffordable (Leaf £0PA vs S350 £1800 PA)?

When will Fuel Duty rise at the pump (and how will HMG recover lost revenue without doubling up)?

It's all very well hanging on to your Classic - but would it retain its value as an unuseable work of art?

So, avoid buying an EV until you get 15 mins Recharge + 400 Mile Range (for £1,500 Dep+ £300pm).

Whatever else you do, enjoy the ICE time remaining - but LEASE IT - hand losses back to the lender.

ICE will still be in use after 2050 (trucks, buses, ships, aircraft, heating...) - Question is: how clean?

Could Synthetic Fuels combined with ICE Development result in Virtually 0g/km + Zero PM2.5...?

Warning: Real Tesla Emissions is >50g/km (cradle to grave, 12k PA) - look up the FT article on this.

[DonkeyApple]

otolith said:

They get a lot more formal training than we did.

One would hope that they are better trained than we were.

There are some vaguely interesting stats for the UK.

40% of road fatalities are people inside cars. Of which the largest proportion fall into the young and old catagories.

among the youth demographic this number has declined post the introduction of better testing. The mileage covered hasn't decreased.

Incidentally and this brings us a little bit back to autonomy. The wailing argument that it will save lives isn't actually what autonomy is about. The money is flowing into that space because of the potential returns from doing away with huge labour costs. The corporate target is to do away with bus, van, truck and minicab labour.

About 1700 fatalities occur a year in the UK. The money isn't being invested to save such a poultry number. It's an irrelevance and in reality absolutely no one cares because there are known solutions already that aren't being chosen.

The blend of traffic types in the UK is a major contributing factor. 50% of fatalities are motorbike and pushbike users yet they represent a minuscule number of users and miles. If road fatalities were genuinely relevant then you would end the use of those means of transport and halve the number of deaths for zero mobility impact on society!

Likewise economics plays a huge and somewhat defining role. In times of economic contraction the death toll falls. The obvious initial assumption is that this is because people are driving less due to their being less economic activity and while this is partly true the real factor is that people change their driving style based on disposable income.

So, the largest single decline in road fatalities was due to the Credit Crunch. Numbers dropped by a third in just three years from over 3000 to under 2000 but have kept falling. There's been no bounce back because people's general spending habits have permanently changed. Average mileage has been back to pre 2007 levels and I believe growing but fatalities haven't increased.

What this shows is that raising running costs such as fuel saves lives.

The other stat is that more than half the fatalities are in rural roads not much safer urban environments. Hence why we've had the program of removing NSLs over the last decade but it has had zero impact on figures.

In many ways the simple solution to slash fatalities is to limit the young and the old to the least powerful cars and for rural drivers of those cars to have curfews!!' Which isn't going to happen.

But what you do begin to see is that the bad drivers in the UK, the ones who kill them selves and others aren't the groups that PH loves to hate but those haters.

[bigothunter]

Blu3R said:

That's exactly what I had. 3x half hour lessons and an hour before the test - in East London. During a lunch hour.
My first lesson was on 1st March and I passed on 30th May.
Had my 1st accident within 24hrs too so maybe they're more expensive now for a reason

I can out-score you Passed my driving test exactly 2 months after my 17th birthday. But my son passed even faster

[Blu3R]

bigothunter said:

Blu3R said:

That's exactly what I had. 3x half hour lessons and an hour before the test - in East London. During a lunch hour.
My first lesson was on 1st March and I passed on 30th May.
Had my 1st accident within 24hrs too so maybe they're more expensive now for a reason

I can out-score you Passed my driving test exactly 2 months after my 17th birthday. But my son passed even faster

Nice
I probably could have cut that a lot shorter but I was thoroughly enjoying myself with other things at the time. Didn't marry her in the end...

My daughter had her first lesson on an airfield when she was 11 so her driving test stats will be terrible for whoever cares

[bigothunter]

DonkeyApple said:

But what you do begin to see is that the bad drivers in the UK, the ones who kill them selves and others aren't the groups that PH loves to hate but those haters.

Damn coffin dodgers And their numbers are on the rise. Why not let Covid take its course?

[DonkeyApple]

bigothunter said:

So why is everyone focussed on 2030?

Because most people read junk media that uses headlines to make idiots fill their pants with mud or fly into a rage. Others just need things to distress them while others just don't read the article.

Given that you can easily make a car last well beyond a decade and many will easily make 20 years then neither the 2030 hybrid date nor the 2035 EV only date are specifically relevant to those who have no desire to switch to either or an ability to. Simply buy a good petrol car at the end of 2029 and keep it for 20 years.

It's a little bit like the synthetic fuel thing that appeared either in this thread or on another similar one. No one read the actual details. The instant assumption was that Porsche were going to be plucking long chain hydrocarbons out of the air and delivering then to petrol pumps for car drivers. No one bothered to actually look beyond the PR statements to see what it was actually all about. What it is about is testing to see if cheap wind energy can be converted to Hydrogen by splitting water. Ie no different to what excess hydro is used for. That hydrogen then effectively acts as a battery, storing the wind energy.

There was then some waffle about eventually looking into whether it was viable to suck half the air on the planet into a condenser, split out the CO2 and then chemically combine that with the H to get CH4, methane. The simplest hydrocarbon. That would then be used the same way methane currently is in the energy industry.

And Porsche's involvement? Bugger all other than using £20m of grants and tax credits to buy a name tag on the project for PR purposes.

And yet bafflingly the rebranding of hudrogen by a corporate PR department to eFuel has got people assuming that in a decade our petrol pumps will be churning out affordable, complex hydrocarbon chains for us to burn when the HIF project is purely about testing the viability of shipping cheap wind energy from the third world to the West for consumption.

[Dracoro]

bigothunter said:

Blu3R said:

That's exactly what I had. 3x half hour lessons and an hour before the test - in East London. During a lunch hour.
My first lesson was on 1st March and I passed on 30th May.
Had my 1st accident within 24hrs too so maybe they're more expensive now for a reason

I can out-score you Passed my driving test exactly 2 months after my 17th birthday. But my son passed even faster

I can beat that (used BSM back in the day, and some practice with parents - also used to drive car down farm track the odd time prior to learning to drive).

1st lesson 1st Nov 1990
Passed test on 30th Nov 1990.

2 lessons in week 1
Put in for test
2 lessons in week 2
Got test date for 2 weeks time (30th Nov)!! Assume they had cancellation and just allocated me to that date.
Lessons nearly every other day for two weeks, incl at 7:30 on a Sunday (my 17year old self was quite averse to mornings! )
Passed!

Parents thought instructor must have been good, so my brother and sister both used him too and both passed 1st time too.

[bigothunter]

Dracoro said:

bigothunter said:

Blu3R said:

That's exactly what I had. 3x half hour lessons and an hour before the test - in East London. During a lunch hour.
My first lesson was on 1st March and I passed on 30th May.
Had my 1st accident within 24hrs too so maybe they're more expensive now for a reason

I can out-score you Passed my driving test exactly 2 months after my 17th birthday. But my son passed even faster

I can beat that (used BSM back in the day, and some practice with parents - also used to drive car down farm track the odd time prior to learning to drive).

1st lesson 1st Nov 1990
Passed test on 30th Nov 1990.

2 lessons in week 1
Put in for test
2 lessons in week 2
Got test date for 2 weeks time (30th Nov)!! Assume they had cancellation and just allocated me to that date.
Lessons nearly every other day for two weeks, incl at 7:30 on a Sunday (my 17year old self was quite averse to mornings! )
Passed!

Parents thought instructor must have been good, so my brother and sister both used him too and both passed 1st time too.

I passed my car test 20 years before you. But I had been on the road with bikes including my Triumph 650 and raced karts, so had some prior experience.

[Evanivitch]

Simon-mx4zh said:

Warning: Real Tesla Emissions is >50g/km (cradle to grave, 12k PA) - look up the FT article on this.

You mean the article from 3 years ago that misrepresented the study and received a complaint?

https://www.ft.com/content/d14b6c8a-c61e-11e7-b2bb...

Warning: There are anti-EV interests and a lack of science in the FT office...

[Terminator X]

Super_G said:

bigothunter said:

rxe said:

IMO we’re going to see loads of Level 3 and 4 automation. It may or may not be as good as human, it will be flawed and it will have to hand over regularly. Full on Level 5, asleep on the back seat? 15 - 20 years away would be my guess.

Agreed

Level 4 autonomy available to the customer by 2030 with full Level 5 by 2040 are reasonable targets, given the significant development needed. This video illustrates some challenges ahead:

I’m going to sound really thick here but do you reckon that level of automation could include self-charging? As in... I have a robot mower that takes itself off to it’s charging base... so a car could go to it’s dedicated charging hub and inclement weather aside, make it’s way back to the owner? Might not be ideal for emergencies though.

Be very scared ...



TX.

[Terminator X]

bigothunter said:

otolith said:

The average number of lessons now is 45, at £25-£30 per hour. Plus 22 hours of practice, which not everyone can do informally.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/learning-to-dri...

Average of 45 lessons - wow But £25-£30 per hour is cheap

I had 3 lessons including an hour before the test, which I passed. But that was back in the dark ages when any muppet was allowed to drive

Afaik there is a minimum number of lessons you must have now before a test is allowed. A mate of mine had no lessons, just booked his test for his 17th birthday and passed!

TX.

Edit - yes 80's.