ICE ban clouds on the horizon. Are you out?

[Terminator X]

DonkeyApple said:

And yet bafflingly the rebranding of hudrogen by a corporate PR department to eFuel has got people assuming that in a decade our petrol pumps will be churning out affordable, complex hydrocarbon chains for us to burn when the HIF project is purely about testing the viability of shipping cheap wind energy from the third world to the West for consumption.

For posterity. So you categorically are stating that man made fuel will never be used to keep ICE cars going?

TX.

[otolith]

Terminator X said:

Be very scared ...



TX.

Do not bend over in front of that thing.

[Evanivitch]

DonkeyApple said:

And yet bafflingly the rebranding of hudrogen by a corporate PR department to eFuel has got people assuming that in a decade our petrol pumps will be churning out affordable, complex hydrocarbon chains for us to burn when the HIF project is purely about testing the viability of shipping cheap wind energy from the third world to the West for consumption.

Did I miss something? Is the porsche fuel just hydrogen tech?

[otolith]

Evanivitch said:

Did I miss something? Is the porsche fuel just hydrogen tech?

Wind power to make hydrogen to make methane to make petrol.

https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/offerings...

[321boost]

otolith said:

321boost said:

Younger people are not buying houses or buying them later in life. Must not be cool. Lets stop selling houses and go rent only

Some of you oldies dont know st as usual.

The young fogeys who post on this old man website are not representative of normality.

lol stay delusional

[DonkeyApple]

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

And yet bafflingly the rebranding of hudrogen by a corporate PR department to eFuel has got people assuming that in a decade our petrol pumps will be churning out affordable, complex hydrocarbon chains for us to burn when the HIF project is purely about testing the viability of shipping cheap wind energy from the third world to the West for consumption.

Did I miss something? Is the porsche fuel just hydrogen tech?

That's exactly what the HIF project is. It's to see if wind energy from South America can be shipped by tanker to Europe. It's all about hydrogen as a battery.

If that transpired to be commercially viable then the next step is additional funding to try and combine CO2 with Hudrogen to create methane economically.

If you reach that point then are you going to then try and create long chain polymer fuels or simply burn the methane for electricity or heating?

[DonkeyApple]

Terminator X said:

DonkeyApple said:

And yet bafflingly the rebranding of hudrogen by a corporate PR department to eFuel has got people assuming that in a decade our petrol pumps will be churning out affordable, complex hydrocarbon chains for us to burn when the HIF project is purely about testing the viability of shipping cheap wind energy from the third world to the West for consumption.

For posterity. So you categorically are stating that man made fuel will never be used to keep ICE cars going?

TX.

Caragorically stating that neither you or I will be buying HIF eFuel at the petrol pumps.

[Evanivitch]

DonkeyApple said:

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

And yet bafflingly the rebranding of hudrogen by a corporate PR department to eFuel has got people assuming that in a decade our petrol pumps will be churning out affordable, complex hydrocarbon chains for us to burn when the HIF project is purely about testing the viability of shipping cheap wind energy from the third world to the West for consumption.

Did I miss something? Is the porsche fuel just hydrogen tech?

That's exactly what the HIF project is. It's to see if wind energy from South America can be shipped by tanker to Europe. It's all about hydrogen as a battery.

If that transpired to be commercially viable then the next step is additional funding to try and combine CO2 with Hudrogen to create methane economically.

If you reach that point then are you going to then try and create long chain polymer fuels or simply burn the methane for electricity or heating?

I hadn't realised that as the Porsche website was so thin on details.

So, purify the water, split with hydrolysis, extract CO2 from atmosphere, combine H2/CO2 to CH4, then further process for complex fuels. Would love to see the end to end efficiency, any ideas of ballpark? Assuming no hydrogen storage in the process.

[DonkeyApple]

Evanivitch said:

I hadn't realised that as the Porsche website was so thin on details.

So, purify the water, split with hydrolysis, extract CO2 from atmosphere, combine H2/CO2 to CH4, then further process for complex fuels. Would love to see the end to end efficiency, any ideas of ballpark? Assuming no hydrogen storage in the process.

It's simpler than that. It's just using cheap excess wind energy to split water to Hydrogen and then ship it to Europe. That's the fundamental purpose to prove the commercial plausibility of building your windfarms in other countries and being able to transport the energy home.

The CO2 element is something that will be tested down the line but as you can imagine, this doesn't need a Chilean wind farm to do but can be done on home soil. Which is what makes it a bit of a bolt on to the pitch to make it sound funkier for phase two fund raising down the line. The tech already exists but the end product is extremely expensive.

Something else to consider re the hydrogen generated is that if you are then fitting out a ship to transport it then that ship might as well be propelled by hydrogen but when it docks at the other end there is no point in unloading it to ship elsewhere and incurring that massive infrastructure cost when it can simply be piped from the ship straight to a power generator at the dock and used to power that city. Which is why it's being backed by an Italian energy company given the better port access it has over say a German company.

The tech for sucking in CO2 and creating methane exists but it'll be years before it might be commercially viable but proving that wind energy can be transported as liquid hydrogen to then be used to generate electricity elsewhere is instantly viable once proven.

It also means we can outsource all the bird killing to the third world and blame them.

[anonymous-user]

For a decent car, autonomous "driving" is like marrying [insert name of your fav actress / model] and paying the gardener to ^^^^ her. Has some advantages though, if one is drunk or infirm. Otherwise, a lot of sissy snowflake bks for the inept generation.

[DonkeyApple]

tommy1973s said:

Otherwise, a lot of sissy snowflake bks for the inept generation.

'Snowflake' is a horrible derogatory term used only by horrible people. Uneducated, bitter men who aren't strong enough to emotionally cope with not getting all the things they think they deserve. The modern pub loser who letches at the bar and endlessly goes on about how everything is the fault of some group like immigrants or kids. The modern panatella smoking, Jag driving sexpest that's probably been on the fiddle all their life. The modern Dirty Dave.

[K12beano]

DonkeyApple said:

tommy1973s said:

Otherwise, a lot of sissy snowflake bks for the inept generation.

'Snowflake' is a horrible derogatory term used only by horrible people. Uneducated, bitter men who aren't strong enough to emotionally cope with not getting all the things they think they deserve. The modern pub loser who letches at the bar and endlessly goes on about how everything is the fault of some group like immigrants or kids. The modern panatella smoking, Jag driving sexpest that's probably been on the fiddle all their life. The modern Dirty Dave.

Are you saying he's less "Tommy" and more "Uncle Ernie"?

[DonkeyApple]

K12beano said:

Are you saying he's less "Tommy" and more "Uncle Ernie"?

Maybe I would go that far. . But as Earnies go he's less likely to be the one with the fastest milk float in the West one could surmise?

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

that ship might as well be propelled by hydrogen but when it docks at the other end there is no point in unloading it to ship elsewhere and incurring that massive infrastructure cost when it can simply be piped from the ship straight to a power generator at the dock

Given that a Hydrogen powered ship is going to need an absolutely enourmous fuel cell, then you may as well just dock, and plug the ships multi MW rated fuel cell into the grid! In effect, the ship itself becomes a mobile "battery"

the problem is, ships have a huge constant "roadload" (seaload??) which isn't suited to being driven by fuel cells, because there is little of no difference between the peak and sustained ratings required. You could of course burn the hydrogen as gas in an internal (or external) combustion engine, but then unless you can find something to do with the waste heat, your efficiency is terrible.

And again, when you burrow down, you find, the best option is to simply fill the ship with batteries instead (where the surface area to volume rule means the bigger the better!) But then, you look at the costs of doing that, and you find a "copper ship" (ie an undersea cable!) is actually even better........

[DonkeyApple]

Max_Torque said:

DonkeyApple said:

that ship might as well be propelled by hydrogen but when it docks at the other end there is no point in unloading it to ship elsewhere and incurring that massive infrastructure cost when it can simply be piped from the ship straight to a power generator at the dock

Given that a Hydrogen powered ship is going to need an absolutely enourmous fuel cell, then you may as well just dock, and plug the ships multi MW rated fuel cell into the grid! In effect, the ship itself becomes a mobile "battery"

the problem is, ships have a huge constant "roadload" (seaload??) which isn't suited to being driven by fuel cells, because there is little of no difference between the peak and sustained ratings required. You could of course burn the hydrogen as gas in an internal (or external) combustion engine, but then unless you can find something to do with the waste heat, your efficiency is terrible.

And again, when you burrow down, you find, the best option is to simply fill the ship with batteries instead (where the surface area to volume rule means the bigger the better!) But then, you look at the costs of doing that, and you find a "copper ship" (ie an undersea cable!) is actually even better........

The reality is that burning oil remains the most economical solution under current tax and legislation. Your issue with using the ship as the generator at port is that of turnaround. A ship needs to unload and set sail ASAP or the economies break. Either way, the HIF program is not about making fuel for private cars as was jumped on via the misleading headlines.

[Evanivitch]

tommy1973s said:

For a decent car, autonomous "driving" is like marrying [insert name of your fav actress / model] and paying the gardener to ^^^^ her. Has some advantages though, if one is drunk or infirm. Otherwise, a lot of sissy snowflake bks for the inept generation.

Triggered? Or just a melt?

[bigothunter]

tommy1973s said:

For a decent car, autonomous "driving" is like marrying [insert name of your fav actress / model] and paying the gardener to ^^^^ her. Has some advantages though, if one is drunk or infirm. Otherwise, a lot of sissy snowflake bks for the inept generation.

Just like autonomous "driving", you could always sit back and watch the gardener in action. He might be better at it than you

[Mr Tidy]

DonkeyApple said:

tommy1973s said:

Otherwise, a lot of sissy snowflake bks for the inept generation.

'Snowflake' is a horrible derogatory term used only by horrible people. Uneducated, bitter men who aren't strong enough to emotionally cope with not getting all the things they think they deserve. The modern pub loser who letches at the bar and endlessly goes on about how everything is the fault of some group like immigrants or kids. The modern panatella smoking, Jag driving sexpest that's probably been on the fiddle all their life. The modern Dirty Dave.

Seems to have hit a nerve there though!!

If I had to guess I'd put your age in proper snowflake territrory, like mid-40s at most.

But then I may be uneducated as I only got nine O-levels and two A Levels (probably before your time) then an A* GCSE some years later and I'm happy with all I've had from life, including work-place pensions that allowed me to retire at 56.

I don't have an issue with immigrants or kids, just snowflakes like you that feel hard done by.

Anyway I'll just keep my ICE cars for as long as I can drive them!

[DonkeyApple]

Mr Tidy said:

Seems to have hit a nerve there though!!

If I had to guess I'd put your age in proper snowflake territrory, like mid-40s at most.

But then I may be uneducated as I only got nine O-levels and two A Levels (probably before your time) then an A* GCSE some years later and I'm happy with all I've had from life, including work-place pensions that allowed me to retire at 56.

I don't have an issue with immigrants or kids, just snowflakes like you that feel hard done by.

Anyway I'll just keep my ICE cars for as long as I can drive them!

So will most petrol heads keep their ICE cars as long as they can. That's not some badge of honour that seemingly makes you a great human or makes other inferior. Besides, given your age you will be long dead before you even have to contemplate an EV so the fact that someone of your age is even remotely caring to the point of hurling abusive terms around and denigrating an entire section of society based on a single criteria is what marks someone out as flat roof pub dumb rather than a few bits of paper saying how great someone is at woodwork or home economics.

It's also not a stroke of genius to brag about retiring at 58 when it's during the era of so many being able to retire at 55 from toilet cleaners upwards. Personally, I stopped working at 40 so by your flat roof pub metric I am considerably superior to you.

You also have my age range somewhat incorrect but then that's hardly surprising.

People who throw generic terms of abuse at sections of society are uneducated, broken fools. No amount of paper certificates or early retirement changes a flat roof pub punter from being a flat roof pub punter.

The fact that you can't even discuss the engine of a car without bringing in offensive social terms is what defines you are a human. And those that do that have failed.

[NDA]

Mr Tidy said:

But then I may be uneducated as I only got nine O-levels and two A Levels (probably before your time) then an A* GCSE some years later and I'm happy with all I've had from life, including work-place pensions that allowed me to retire at 56.

I don't have an issue with immigrants or kids, just snowflakes like you that feel hard done by.

Anyway I'll just keep my ICE cars for as long as I can drive them!

Had you done a little better you could own both EV's and ICE cars simultaneously.