Best smoker barges 1-5 large [Vol 18]
Discussion
stickleback123 said:
A more sensible example would be two comparable cars, a 5 series and a Honda Legend
It's a big part of why, although superficially similar, the Legend looks much s
ttier than the 5 series in stance and proportion. Partly through association of the cab forward/FWD shape with lame povvo boxes, and partly because of the thrusting look a large dash to axle ratio gives a car.
Well that explains the state of these perfectly now It's a big part of why, although superficially similar, the Legend looks much s
ttier than the 5 series in stance and proportion. Partly through association of the cab forward/FWD shape with lame povvo boxes, and partly because of the thrusting look a large dash to axle ratio gives a car.Edited by stickleback123 on Tuesday 23 February 20:11
Not exactly local CdG, but I used to walk past this place when working at Sartorius. (Göttingen)
http://amautocenter.de/#!/up
Always had a selection of what appeared to be interesting stuff for the discerning Bargiste!
http://amautocenter.de/#!/up
Always had a selection of what appeared to be interesting stuff for the discerning Bargiste!
bolidemichael said:
Why can't the axle be far away from the dash on a FWD?
You would need a very odd gearbox or very flexible driveshafts!If you wonder why Audis had a reputation for understeer, look at this.
See where the suspension tops are? The whole weight of the engine is in front of them...
Compare to a contemporary BMW:
B'stard Child said:
bolidemichael said:
stickleback123 said:
It's also why that 800 looks so gawky from the side - it has a long bonnet to give it that long thrusting bonnet look an 80s junior sales executive needed but then the wheel right back towards the door because it's wrong wheel drive, giving it a long front overhang and knock-kneed look with a short wheelbase relative to it's length.
Why can't the axle be far away from the dash on a FWD?But then the gearbox needs to be in front of the engine rather than in line with it (to line up the drive shafts with the wheels)
The height of the engine, plus pedestrian impact space, close to the front of the car, means the scuttle height will also have to be high, which which means the waistline is also high, which means a dumpy car.
You also likely need the steering rack behind the wheel line, since there's little space in front of the engine, and probably no easy way to route the steering column past the transverse engine/gearbox. Whereas a RWD car can put the rack in front of the wheel line, since there's room to package it there, because the engine is not forced to be aligned to the wheels, and the column can easily run alongside the longitudinal engine.
Not needing the engine above the wheels, or the gearbox output approximately at the height of the front hubs, means the nose can be lower, and so the scuttle can be lower, and so the waistline can be lower, which all makes for a better-looking (and potentially better-handling) car.
XMified said:
If you consider the advances that must have been made in materials, and ease of design, it is bewildering to see how conformist certain aspects of interiors have become. Always that hateful shiny chrome effect, everywhere.
I quite like the curvature of the facia. Just left wanting for something more original and less garish.
I'm afraid the modern buyer has more than a touch of Magpie in them with zero independence in design tastes, always looking to someone else to say what is good design. Those someone's they all look to are usually nobody/talentless "celebrities" who've done bugger all to deserve such status, usually with artificial enhancements (and usually blown to over exaggerated proportions) that wouldn't know good design/taste if it was broken down into an over simplistic chart and brainwashed with it for a year. Unfortunately car companies pander to this because it sells... ...and brrrreeaathe...I quite like the curvature of the facia. Just left wanting for something more original and less garish.
As far as that modern Merc interior goes, there are some nice design touches but to me it's a mess, a shotgun approach to design. A couple of blasts and see what sticks approach with chrome/shiny anthracite sprinkled on top and a modern computer component approach of shoving RGB in any old place that it'll fit. Modern car designers, for the most part, have never heard of K.I.S.S.
Dapster said:
Who remembers when it was all fields? 38 years of progress.....
Given they've a large space of infinitely flexible real estate that can be used for the very, very many control functions that the car has, they've just made it extraordinarily busy in there.I'm not holding up Tesla as a paragon of interior design, but their car has approximately the same control requirements as the C Class, and it looks like this:
Which, if it was a bit better executed, would for me be more Mercedes than the Mercedes.
E30M3SE said:
Martin30 said:
Also have a lovely E30 brochure from the days when brochures were substantial, not QR code links to a page giving you 87 wheel choices. Likely to appeal to the same sort of deviant/threadist like myself who would want the roof bars - also free.
Martin.
If no one one else is up for it I would like that. Let me know p&p. Martin.
Martin.
CharlesdeGaulle said:
Busted. I'm Frank7's alter-ego!
(It's only for family and friends collection from the airport really).
Here's something not even close to exciting for you...but it is a left hooker and in full taxi spec. Yours for £6250(It's only for family and friends collection from the airport really).
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009153...
mondayo said:
CharlesdeGaulle said:
Busted. I'm Frank7's alter-ego!
(It's only for family and friends collection from the airport really).
Here's something not even close to exciting for you...but it is a left hooker and in full taxi spec. Yours for £6250(It's only for family and friends collection from the airport really).
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009153...
RicksAlfas said:
bolidemichael said:
Why can't the axle be far away from the dash on a FWD?
You would need a very odd gearbox or very flexible driveshafts!If you wonder why Audis had a reputation for understeer, look at this.
See where the suspension tops are? The whole weight of the engine is in front of them...
All this talk of dash to axle ratio is very interesting, thanks SB123 and others for sharing.
If a manufacturer were so inclined as to want to have a FWD car with the typical dash to axle ratio of a RWD car, it strikes me as eminently simple by just tilting the engine rearward by 40 degrees or so. Gearbox and driveshafts remain under the engine, and are now in the perfect place for a forward mounted front axle. Plenty of room for the cooling pack and induction side above the gearbox, plenty of room for the turbo/exhausts/hotside betwixt the engine and firewall and as a further bonus, the bonnet and firewall heights can be reduced too. Engine bay would need to be longer than strictly necessary to accommodate, but that also helps with the styling.
Nobody does this though, so what am I missing? Crash structure issues presumably with a solid/heavy gearbox so close to the front of the car.
Martin.
If a manufacturer were so inclined as to want to have a FWD car with the typical dash to axle ratio of a RWD car, it strikes me as eminently simple by just tilting the engine rearward by 40 degrees or so. Gearbox and driveshafts remain under the engine, and are now in the perfect place for a forward mounted front axle. Plenty of room for the cooling pack and induction side above the gearbox, plenty of room for the turbo/exhausts/hotside betwixt the engine and firewall and as a further bonus, the bonnet and firewall heights can be reduced too. Engine bay would need to be longer than strictly necessary to accommodate, but that also helps with the styling.
Nobody does this though, so what am I missing? Crash structure issues presumably with a solid/heavy gearbox so close to the front of the car.
Martin.
Martin30 said:
All this talk of dash to axle ratio is very interesting, thanks SB123 and others for sharing.
If a manufacturer were so inclined as to want to have a FWD car with the typical dash to axle ratio of a RWD car, it strikes me as eminently simple by just tilting the engine rearward by 40 degrees or so. Gearbox and driveshafts remain under the engine, and are now in the perfect place for a forward mounted front axle. Plenty of room for the cooling pack and induction side above the gearbox, plenty of room for the turbo/exhausts/hotside betwixt the engine and firewall and as a further bonus, the bonnet and firewall heights can be reduced too. Engine bay would need to be longer than strictly necessary to accommodate, but that also helps with the styling.
Nobody does this though, so what am I missing? Crash structure issues presumably with a solid/heavy gearbox so close to the front of the car.
Martin.
I think manufacturers of FWD cars prioritise interior space over those stying benefits. I think you're right in principle though, as long as the engine was designed for it, to avoid oil-circulation problems, then it could work.If a manufacturer were so inclined as to want to have a FWD car with the typical dash to axle ratio of a RWD car, it strikes me as eminently simple by just tilting the engine rearward by 40 degrees or so. Gearbox and driveshafts remain under the engine, and are now in the perfect place for a forward mounted front axle. Plenty of room for the cooling pack and induction side above the gearbox, plenty of room for the turbo/exhausts/hotside betwixt the engine and firewall and as a further bonus, the bonnet and firewall heights can be reduced too. Engine bay would need to be longer than strictly necessary to accommodate, but that also helps with the styling.
Nobody does this though, so what am I missing? Crash structure issues presumably with a solid/heavy gearbox so close to the front of the car.
Martin.
A high scuttle from a conventional FWD installation also gives an upright cabin and seating arrangement, which also helps space efficiency. Feet-under, rather than feet-forward.
Not at all sporty (or cool) but space-efficient.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
stickleback123 said:
On a barge related note, although I'm not sure these can ever be counted as barges because of their miserable power plants, the new C Class was announced today
Look at that dash to axle ratio and long nose, they've made sure there is no mistaking this for one of the FWD models.
Yeah saw that. Can't say I like it. I also think the interior with that screen the way it's integrated looks awful, same as with the new S class. I also think this looks very bland, although maybe seeing one in the metal may change that. I wonder if 6 cylinder options will come. It'll be sad that the AMG will have gone straight from 8 down to 4 cylinders in just 1 generation if the rumours are to be believed. That would put me off straight away I think.Look at that dash to axle ratio and long nose, they've made sure there is no mistaking this for one of the FWD models.
Edit - just look at this. I think it's awful. Some of you may disagree, mind
SpeckledJim said:
CdeG -
What about a first-gen XF Sportbrake? Smart, elegant and pretty cool, IMO.
Nice to drive, fulfils the practicality requirements without being staid, and (I reckon) on-message for enhancing your already elephantine personal magnetism.
Eh?
I like these but aren't they all diesel (1st gen)?What about a first-gen XF Sportbrake? Smart, elegant and pretty cool, IMO.
Nice to drive, fulfils the practicality requirements without being staid, and (I reckon) on-message for enhancing your already elephantine personal magnetism.
Eh?
tobinen said:
SpeckledJim said:
I like these but aren't they all diesel (1st gen)?https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/jaguar/j...
Martin30 said:
All this talk of dash to axle ratio is very interesting, thanks SB123 and others for sharing.
If a manufacturer were so inclined as to want to have a FWD car with the typical dash to axle ratio of a RWD car, it strikes me as eminently simple by just tilting the engine rearward by 40 degrees or so. Gearbox and driveshafts remain under the engine, and are now in the perfect place for a forward mounted front axle. Plenty of room for the cooling pack and induction side above the gearbox, plenty of room for the turbo/exhausts/hotside betwixt the engine and firewall and as a further bonus, the bonnet and firewall heights can be reduced too. Engine bay would need to be longer than strictly necessary to accommodate, but that also helps with the styling.
Nobody does this though, so what am I missing? Crash structure issues presumably with a solid/heavy gearbox so close to the front of the car.
Martin.
I think you need a very long engine bay, otherwise the cylinder heads would be in the glovebox.If a manufacturer were so inclined as to want to have a FWD car with the typical dash to axle ratio of a RWD car, it strikes me as eminently simple by just tilting the engine rearward by 40 degrees or so. Gearbox and driveshafts remain under the engine, and are now in the perfect place for a forward mounted front axle. Plenty of room for the cooling pack and induction side above the gearbox, plenty of room for the turbo/exhausts/hotside betwixt the engine and firewall and as a further bonus, the bonnet and firewall heights can be reduced too. Engine bay would need to be longer than strictly necessary to accommodate, but that also helps with the styling.
Nobody does this though, so what am I missing? Crash structure issues presumably with a solid/heavy gearbox so close to the front of the car.
Martin.
It is possible to lean engines over though. Here's a Lancia engine leant over for a low bonnet line:
CharlesdeGaulle said:
Whilst on the subject of general new-car appeal, diesels, small 4 cylinder petrols and so on, I find myself at the other end of my normal bottom-feeder barge-fandom as I investigate new offerings. <snip>
I am likely to earn myself a ban from this thread for this reply, but please hear me out. I am a long, and committed barge chooser, and for the first 25 years of car buying life, have always prioritised the barge traits over all - many cylinders, an excess of capability, long distance comfort etc.
Then, 7 years ago, I went to work for Jaguar Land Rover for 5 years. I got lovely, frequently changed company cars as part of the gig, and settled mainly on Discovery 5s with the 2.0 4-cyl 237bhp diesel engine. I did 30k miles a year commuting, hence choosing the 4-pot initially. Bar the aural pleasures that come from a multi-cylinder engine, the 4-pot is simply a better choice. All the turbos, torque and gear ratios needed - even towing 3T often, the cruising fuel economy of a modern, high compression, low capacity engine, and no ability to tell 4 from 6 pot unless under 20mph or more than 70% throttle.
I realised that what makes an effective 'luxury' experience is not much to do with the configuration of the engine, it is the overall capability of the car, the levels of torque at low rpm, the sound proofing, the cabin environment, the toys, the quality of materials and the tactile interactions you have with the interior.
These days, I still want the barge size, engineering, quality, and refinement. But I will prioritise specification, options, and colour schemes long before the engine choice.
I am merely trying to say that modern, downsized, heavily boosted petrol/diesel four pots are not the devil. They are not the sublime, smooth, excess of wonder that we all love, but they are not the devil.
Martin.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
mondayo said:
CharlesdeGaulle said:
Busted. I'm Frank7's alter-ego!
(It's only for family and friends collection from the airport really).
Here's something not even close to exciting for you...but it is a left hooker and in full taxi spec. Yours for £6250(It's only for family and friends collection from the airport really).
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202009153...
The IHKA high system also has condensation and solar sensors: https://www.meeknet.co.uk/e64/tis_routines/E64%20S...
It's a bit of an odd spec. Sunroof + heated seats + proNav but no xenons and budget a/c.
tobinen said:
...I recommend you save a heap on a new car and buy a W124 E500E which won't lose a centime and is LHD. And cool.
Here here. Although as you drive on the wrong side of the road, you also have access to the lesser spotted E420. Most of the bite of a 500 but looks like you've dropped off a fare at Flughafen Stuttgart. This one is a bit pricey but the lack of depreciation as Tobinen mentions above will Man Maths the spreadsheet back into your favour.https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id...
Edited by Dapster on Wednesday 24th February 09:58
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