RE: Gordon Murray: 'Last flag-waver of a great V12'
Discussion
SidewaysSi said:
Exactly, which was my point that Robsco didn't get.
There seems to be a lot of bitter/jealous people on here - yes, most people can't afford it and won't so much as ever touch one but does that matter? Life ain't fair but same as it ever was.
Plenty of great cars at all price points which is the joy of cars.
I dunno if its bitterness or jealousy and stupidity or what it is. A lot of people just need to air their stinking opinion on everything even when it's completely irrelevant, adds nothing and they don't even like the subject. Sort of internet verbal diarrhea meets loving ones own voice. See the top gear/grand tour/ any F1 race thread etc etc.There seems to be a lot of bitter/jealous people on here - yes, most people can't afford it and won't so much as ever touch one but does that matter? Life ain't fair but same as it ever was.
Plenty of great cars at all price points which is the joy of cars.
Gordon: I've spent years breeding cows and have created what I consider to be the worlds finest steak.
Web dweeb 1: I can buy a whole bag of mince in asda for 75p that's more impressive
Web dweeb 2: tesla make a burger with 468 ingredients and 12" high and completely impractical but that's more impressive.
Web dweeb 3: all you did was grow a cow.
Web dweeb 4: I'm a vegan your killing the planet
Web dweeb 5: brexit wamker Italians make tr00 cars
Web dweeb 3: Adolf Hitler!
Teddy Lop said:
SidewaysSi said:
Exactly, which was my point that Robsco didn't get.
There seems to be a lot of bitter/jealous people on here - yes, most people can't afford it and won't so much as ever touch one but does that matter? Life ain't fair but same as it ever was.
Plenty of great cars at all price points which is the joy of cars.
I dunno if its bitterness or jealousy and stupidity or what it is. A lot of people just need to air their stinking opinion on everything even when it's completely irrelevant, adds nothing and they don't even like the subject. Sort of internet verbal diarrhea meets loving ones own voice. See the top gear/grand tour/ any F1 race thread etc etc.There seems to be a lot of bitter/jealous people on here - yes, most people can't afford it and won't so much as ever touch one but does that matter? Life ain't fair but same as it ever was.
Plenty of great cars at all price points which is the joy of cars.
Gordon: I've spent years breeding cows and have created what I consider to be the worlds finest steak.
Web dweeb 1: I can buy a whole bag of mince in asda for 75p that's more impressive
Web dweeb 2: tesla make a burger with 468 ingredients and 12" high and completely impractical but that's more impressive.
Web dweeb 3: all you did was grow a cow.
Web dweeb 4: I'm a vegan your killing the planet
Web dweeb 5: brexit wamker Italians make tr00 cars
Web dweeb 3: Adolf Hitler!
FWIW I think the car is going to be incredible but I don't like his self-promoting ways.
Moskvich said:
sisu said:
Yeah I think Gian pallo Dallara might question the point that only Gordon and Mauro Forghieri know how to build a lightweight sports car from the ground up?
Good on him for realising there is a market for a McLaren F1 mk2 and I am glad they are building the v12T50.
No one questions his talent with building a no holds barred sports car with a bottomless budget. However he does struggle with the stuff that he uses himself, the A110, Smart coupe, Elan and Mk1 escort. The basic simple car, this will be what makes him obtainable, otherwise it is a bit like Horatio Pagani who makes artwork.
To make something like a A110 you need a factory, lots of suppliers and huge budget for investing. It´s not reasonable to think that just because someone makes the "best-of-the-best" sports car in a limited run, he could instead have created a sportscar for the people. Its impossible without a huge OEM behind you. Good on him for realising there is a market for a McLaren F1 mk2 and I am glad they are building the v12T50.
No one questions his talent with building a no holds barred sports car with a bottomless budget. However he does struggle with the stuff that he uses himself, the A110, Smart coupe, Elan and Mk1 escort. The basic simple car, this will be what makes him obtainable, otherwise it is a bit like Horatio Pagani who makes artwork.
In the case of T50 its either it or nothing. What makes me hyped about it just like most is that he has based its creation on totally different ideals than any other brand. And that is performance takes the back seat. For this, I call it a sportscar, not a hypercar. Correct me if I am wrong but the Dallara is more of a trackday car than a roadcar, with a low rpm Ford Ecoboost engine. It cannot even be mentioned in the same sentance as the T50.
Edited by Moskvich on Saturday 27th February 11:42
Edited by Moskvich on Saturday 27th February 11:48
You said the reason the A110 only came about because a big OEM and factory. Well his city car was out in 2019, Yamaha aimed it at the European market and I have yet to see one.
I have no question with the T50, but only Elon Muskateers are more blinkered to others being able to do it or do it better
Teddy Lop said:
SidewaysSi said:
Exactly, which was my point that Robsco didn't get.
There seems to be a lot of bitter/jealous people on here - yes, most people can't afford it and won't so much as ever touch one but does that matter? Life ain't fair but same as it ever was.
Plenty of great cars at all price points which is the joy of cars.
I dunno if its bitterness or jealousy and stupidity or what it is. A lot of people just need to air their stinking opinion on everything even when it's completely irrelevant, adds nothing and they don't even like the subject. Sort of internet verbal diarrhea meets loving ones own voice. See the top gear/grand tour/ any F1 race thread etc etc.There seems to be a lot of bitter/jealous people on here - yes, most people can't afford it and won't so much as ever touch one but does that matter? Life ain't fair but same as it ever was.
Plenty of great cars at all price points which is the joy of cars.
Gordon: I've spent years breeding cows and have created what I consider to be the worlds finest steak.
Web dweeb 1: I can buy a whole bag of mince in asda for 75p that's more impressive
Web dweeb 2: tesla make a burger with 468 ingredients and 12" high and completely impractical but that's more impressive.
Web dweeb 3: all you did was grow a cow.
Web dweeb 4: I'm a vegan your killing the planet
Web dweeb 5: brexit wamker Italians make tr00 cars
Web dweeb 3: Adolf Hitler!
I recall someone on PH once quoted Fulton J. Sheen :
"Jealousy is the tribute mediocrity pays to genius"
So true. Regrettably PH is rapidly becoming the Twitter of the automotive forum world. It's a real shame, because it used to be a wonderfully entertaining place full of genuine enthusiasts and decent folk.
I've no doubt Murray is divisive character, but plenty of great individuals are adept at self promotion, and whilst it may not be the "British way", it's frequently a trait born of being exceptionally good at what you do and having confidence in your own abilities, and something us Brits should practice more often.
Murray's CV is up there with the very best, both in F1 and in designing, engineering and producing a road car that few manufacturers at the time could even contemplate usurping.
The T50 has moved the supercar game on using the latest technology, a lot of it British, something everyone here who's British on here, should be proud of.
Love or loath Murray, he's chosen to live and set up a business in the UK, we should be hugely proud of him and his achievements. I'd suggest listening to his Beyond the Grid podcast before belittling what he's done as designer and engineer.
Slippydiff said:
This ^
I recall someone on PH once quoted Fulton J. Sheen :
"Jealousy is the tribute mediocrity pays to genius"
So true. Regrettably PH is rapidly becoming the Twitter of the automotive forum world. It's a real shame, because it used to be a wonderfully entertaining place full of genuine enthusiasts and decent folk.
I've no doubt Murray is divisive character, but plenty of great individuals are adept at self promotion, and whilst it may not be the "British way", it's frequently a trait born of being exceptionally good at what you do and having confidence in your own abilities, and something us Brits should practice more often.
Murray's CV is up there with the very best, both in F1 and in designing, engineering and producing a road car that few manufacturers at the time could even contemplate usurping.
The T50 has moved the supercar game on using the latest technology, a lot of it British, something everyone here who's British on here, should be proud of.
Love or loath Murray, he's chosen to live and set up a business in the UK, we should be hugely proud of him and his achievements. I'd suggest listening to his Beyond the Grid podcast before belittling what he's done as designer and engineer.
Well said fella. I suspect most detractors on here have done sweet FA with their lives by comparison. I recall someone on PH once quoted Fulton J. Sheen :
"Jealousy is the tribute mediocrity pays to genius"
So true. Regrettably PH is rapidly becoming the Twitter of the automotive forum world. It's a real shame, because it used to be a wonderfully entertaining place full of genuine enthusiasts and decent folk.
I've no doubt Murray is divisive character, but plenty of great individuals are adept at self promotion, and whilst it may not be the "British way", it's frequently a trait born of being exceptionally good at what you do and having confidence in your own abilities, and something us Brits should practice more often.
Murray's CV is up there with the very best, both in F1 and in designing, engineering and producing a road car that few manufacturers at the time could even contemplate usurping.
The T50 has moved the supercar game on using the latest technology, a lot of it British, something everyone here who's British on here, should be proud of.
Love or loath Murray, he's chosen to live and set up a business in the UK, we should be hugely proud of him and his achievements. I'd suggest listening to his Beyond the Grid podcast before belittling what he's done as designer and engineer.
redroadster said:
What's really funny is an ultima weighs around same with 1100bhp engine for 100 grand, so with a simple formula it's up there with exotica, are they worth 20 times more woukd like to see a road test with it included.
How many Lithuanian models and carry-on luggage can you fit in an Ultima? How would the journey be from London to Le Mans?I really don't think it follows that any detractors are simply jealous and their arguments can be written off as a result. Nor does it follow that because this thread isn't a worshipful echo chamber Pistonheads has gone downhill. There's room for multiple viewpoints here. As mentioned above, perfectly reasonably, Murray's ventures into road cars since the F1 have not met with much success at all.
You can love and be proud of the accomplishments and engineering brilliance, but dislike how the man comes across, for example. I think that's where I am.
You can love and be proud of the accomplishments and engineering brilliance, but dislike how the man comes across, for example. I think that's where I am.
Teddy Lop said:
Isebac said:
Very interesting that he plans on using the same V12 and the same gearbox in the next model. What is the next model gonna be? Another mid engined supercar, but now 200kg heavier, with a slightly detuned engine and for "only" 1M? I don't really know how I feel about that. For one, I liked the idea that the engine and the gearbox were exclusive to the T.50. Using them in other, lesser models makes them, and the T.50, a bit less special. For two, while it was very apparent that with the production run limited to the same 100 cars the next model would also be extremely expensive and nothing like the T.43 they wanted to make earlier, I was at least hoping it's gonna be a different flavor to the T.50 altogether.
While getting another T.50, just a bit heavier, less powerful and a bit cheaper, powered by the same amazing V12, is still very appealing, in the end it's the same car, but worse. A lot of what makes the T.50 exciting is that it's the ultimate expression of what Murray thinks is the best driver's car. If they were to make another, quite different car, you could be excited for that because it's something new, an expression of something new. Like the best possible GT car or something. If they make another mid engined supercar, then it's not the ultimate expression of anything, it's just a T.50 on a budget - but still a car that only multi-millionaires can buy, that you will never drive, never sit in, never see even. Which is fine if it's a wild thing like the T.50, but less fine if it's budget/price forced model.
Well, no point getting too negative before we know more. Maybe the next model is front engined with a big boot at the back, who knows! And you can't really be too down about getting yet another NA V12, manual gearbox car, lightweight car, no matter what it is, can you?
TBF that engine sounds (on paper) so utterly devine it'd be a crying shame for it not to be exploited and enjoyed more. Especially as said a good number of these will end up in humidity controlled garages as investements... Although I wonder (and hope) more of these go to people who will use them as intended than investors where there the high sticker price might seem more risky than a few Italian etc lumps?While getting another T.50, just a bit heavier, less powerful and a bit cheaper, powered by the same amazing V12, is still very appealing, in the end it's the same car, but worse. A lot of what makes the T.50 exciting is that it's the ultimate expression of what Murray thinks is the best driver's car. If they were to make another, quite different car, you could be excited for that because it's something new, an expression of something new. Like the best possible GT car or something. If they make another mid engined supercar, then it's not the ultimate expression of anything, it's just a T.50 on a budget - but still a car that only multi-millionaires can buy, that you will never drive, never sit in, never see even. Which is fine if it's a wild thing like the T.50, but less fine if it's budget/price forced model.
Well, no point getting too negative before we know more. Maybe the next model is front engined with a big boot at the back, who knows! And you can't really be too down about getting yet another NA V12, manual gearbox car, lightweight car, no matter what it is, can you?
emss said:
Hi,
Éric
This concept is still for sale and in the interview he said they are not considering mass car production business.smilo996 said:
would like to see him do something like this:
the 200hp three-cylinder 845kg model would have made money at about thirty grand. Out Lotus, Lotus.
the article mentions iStream.
I'd, as well, like to see project T43 hit production...the 200hp three-cylinder 845kg model would have made money at about thirty grand. Out Lotus, Lotus.
the article mentions iStream.
Éric
I think he hates the bureaucracy and politics of mass car production. He can't have it his way because funding is on a different scale so it would have to involve investors (public shares or venture capital) who would change the direction of the project.
He wanted to make the SLR a light supercar but Mercedes McLaren wanted to make it a heavy luxury vehicle. He hated having his name associated with a heavy luxury supercar.
All these experiences tells him that he does not want to go into mass car production hence his current chosen path of bespoke exoticas.
Penguinracer said:
Dinosaur - a lightweight, high performance HFC vehicle would at least have been forward looking.
Chemical energy, what are we neanderthals? An anti-gravity craft with dark matter propulsion would allow me to demonstrate that I once read Popular Science and consider myself a misunderstood tech visionary.The Vambo said:
Penguinracer said:
Dinosaur - a lightweight, high performance HFC vehicle would at least have been forward looking.
Chemical energy, what are we neanderthals? An anti-gravity craft with dark matter propulsion would allow me to demonstrate that I once read Popular Science and consider myself a misunderstood tech visionary.T50, T50S - it's great that such things are being designed and built, even though they are out-of-reach for most of us.
hornbaek said:
BurtonLazars said:
hornbaek said:
Sad that all his talent is spent on something that is past its sell by date the day it roles out of the factory door. The F1 was ahead of its time and still today is pushing the envelope of what is possible with a naturally aspirated engine combining all the aero, lightness and drive ability into one design that is defying the passage of time.
Can you confirm you’re saying (?) that “the T50 is past its sell by date”, but the F1 is “still today pushing the envelope of what’s possible”? And that you think the F1 has better “aero, lightness and drive ability” than the T50.hornbaek said:
Sadly with this new one he is at the dinosaur end of the V12 engine. Imagine if he had built something with the vision of the F1 that he had at the time.
Are you suggesting the T50 should have been an EV?The F1 has had the benefit of 30 years of asset booms and partial market resets. It's also got the immense kudos of being the only road car since the 60s to win Le Mans outright... That's a huge part of how special it is and hence the value.
leef44 said:
emss said:
Hi,
Éric
This concept is still for sale and in the interview he said they are not considering mass car production business.smilo996 said:
would like to see him do something like this:
the 200hp three-cylinder 845kg model would have made money at about thirty grand. Out Lotus, Lotus.
the article mentions iStream.
I'd, as well, like to see project T43 hit production...the 200hp three-cylinder 845kg model would have made money at about thirty grand. Out Lotus, Lotus.
the article mentions iStream.
Éric
I think he hates the bureaucracy and politics of mass car production. He can't have it his way because funding is on a different scale so it would have to involve investors (public shares or venture capital) who would change the direction of the project.
He wanted to make the SLR a light supercar but Mercedes McLaren wanted to make it a heavy luxury vehicle. He hated having his name associated with a heavy luxury supercar.
All these experiences tells him that he does not want to go into mass car production hence his current chosen path of bespoke exoticas.
Problem is, he's asking someone else to quite publically back his horse with their money...
Considering the volumes he suggests are pretty low (5k is hardly 'volume') - I can't help but think he should really put his money where his mouth is and actually prove the concept.
I say this as a former production/process engineer - I'm hugely interested in the detail behind iStream, especially the low capital and tooling requirements... Which reinforces to me that he could indeed do it.
Problem is, he just cannot compromise. Most who learnt their trade in competition can't.
For that reason, along with his age - I'd be amazed if "project 2" really was that much dialled back, or usefully cheaper. He'd also really best be getting a move on figuring out his successor pronto!
I'm going to try and blag a test drive in one of these to see if a car can be worth these preposterous amounts of money. I still don't like the styling around mid rif. Its been made to look like that for extra luggage really don't like. F1 so much more handsome. Version 2 looks effeminate.
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