RE: Volvo reveals 408hp C40 Recharge

[SWoll]

Harrison Bergeron said:

SWoll said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

YES another 2 ton SUV!!!!!

-Said no one.Ever-

Sales figures would suggest otherwise?

They sell millions of white fridges too. I don't see anyone scalping the lastest indesit on ebay.

Did that analogy actually work in your head?

[anonymous-user]

Arsecati said:

Speedraser said:

He said keep the car you already own. In which case, there would be zero additional polution from manufacturing a new car, its engine/motor, and its batteries.

The emissions produced by a car while in use is just one part of the environmental picture. Most of the materials to make electric drivetrains and batteries come from China -- the world's greatest polluter BY FAR. Mining, manufacturing, etc, those materials is extremely bad for the environment -- this is so often ignored. Vastly more electric cars means vastly more production from China -- and vastly more pollution from that production. Per the Paris agreement, China doesn't even have to start reducing its pollution for another decade! Oh, and there is no mechanism to enforce even that. And then there's the economic dependence on China for those electric drivetrain materials. To be clear, I'm not saying that electric cars are bad, or that they won't help the environment long-term. Whether that's the case depends on many things. What truly matters is the "cradle-to-grave" pollution. The notion that EVs are "pollution-free" or that they are only solution, grossly ignores so many issues that are critically important to actually addressing the problem, rather than merely politicking.

Edited by Speedraser on Wednesday 3rd March 02:58

More ignorance. Instead of the casual racism, why don't you, you know, look at some actual facts?

China is actually ranked at only 47th in the world of the greatest CO2 emitters PER CAPITA in the world (the PER CAPITA is kinda important buddy!). The USA pumps out more than DOUBLE the amount of CO2 per person than China.... but hey, don't let the actual facts get in the way of a nice little MAGA agenda!

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/10296/economics...
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.P...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by...

Indeed.

There's an interesting article here about EV vs ICE life cycle raw material consumption. It's not quite 'cradle to the grave' as it doesn't take into account how much crude oil, and the impact of the associated refinement process, is required to make petrol and diesel, nor does it take into account how much spodumene, sulfide and laterite ores, and cobalt ores are needed to produce lithium, nickel, and cobalt.

https://insideevs.com/news/491330/electric-cars-le...

Even if you take out the inherent bias that no doubt comes with the source of the study, the numbers would still suggest EVs consume far, far less over the lifecycle.

[ajap1979]

Dedders said:

It’s the cost more than anything to me, £60k for a relatively small car in their range. I hate to think what the cost will be for a V90 sized family car, I’d guess it will be pushing 90-100k.

I don't mind the look of the car, it's the sort of thing my wife would like, but the cost is crazy. People are complaining about a top of the range Golf with similar straight line performance being £40k, but it's somehow OK for this to be £25k more?

[DonkeyApple]

PhantomPH said:

Am I the only person who things that 'online only' only benefits the supplier? Maybe this is my inner dinosaur coming out, but I've never bought a car where I have accepted the first price/finance deal. I know with online only everyone gets the same deal, but it just feels a bit alien to me.

Another thing I have to get used to, I suppose.

Manufacturers are all keen to cut out the dealer and to own the contact with the end client directly. Without the dealer in the middle the money that would have been taken by that dealer can be parcelled out elsewhere. Maybe it'll go to the customer or maybe to Volvo. Who knows? Well, we all know which way that money is going to flow. . Plus, without competing local dealers you can charge more. The question is whether a global corporate, if it has created the opportunity to charge even more would ever do such a thing? Another rhetorical question.

When you can remove the commissioned sales agents and funnel all the customers to one location you get a much more robust ability to control pricing and to push it up.

The real fun though is when they finally stop you from owning the product and instead you're just renting it and they then send you instructions via the app with regards to what you are to do that day to maintain their asset and you won't be allowed in it until you've had it done. It'll be like paying a company to work for them.

[PH User]

SWoll said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

SWoll said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

YES another 2 ton SUV!!!!!

-Said no one.Ever-

Sales figures would suggest otherwise?

They sell millions of white fridges too. I don't see anyone scalping the lastest indesit on ebay.

Did that analogy actually work in your head?

Exactly, the sales figures show that lots of people like SUVs

[Hammerhead]

Re the online only purchase option, what happens when you want to trade it in for another Volvo later on? I can't see the sales teams heading for alternative employment just yet.

The initial purchase side looks very greedy though. List prices today are just meaningless considering the vast discounts on offer. £X0k and no negotiation? Balls to that.

Think I'll keep what I've got for a while longer, thanks very much.

[CDP]

Glosphil said:

Was having a discussion on electric cars with a few friends and all agreed that we wanted an EV with similar spec to our existing cars with a range of at least 250 miles. Didn't need to be faster - I suspect that insurance companies will take into account motor max power when setting premiums. Obviously the EVs will need some extra power to offset the extra weight.
Price not more than 20% above latest ICE version of current cars.
Pre-Covid we averaged 8-10k miles a year - we're all retired.
We all have double width driveways & garages so re-charging not a problem

So we need to replace:
Leon FR (150) hatckback
Audi A4 (140) Avant
VW EOS (140)
Golf (125)
Renault Clio (100)
Fabia (100)
Clio (75)
MX-5 (158)
Notice there are no SUVs.

So £40k+ cars are out. Not much choice on the market yet. Most EVs being introduced seem to be high-powered and high priced; and many are SUVs.

Not a lot of choice but the Leaf, Zoe, ID3 plus offerings from Hyundai and Kia spring to mind. Some of them are looking quite good.

I just don't think I'll be doing sufficient mileage to warrant an electric car for a while so will stick with my perfectly serviceable if old petrol Audi for a bit longer. If I was to be commuting daily into Cambridge it would be a different matter as the Audi can use £60 per week...

[Miserablegit]

Arsecati said:

Right, so you're not really a fan of actual facts and raw data then? Hmmm, interesting perspective there.

I am able to ascertain the erroneous basis for your assertions.

China's industrial growth continues at massive environmental cost.

To compare like with like one must compare the damage caused based on per capita involved in that production process. China's figures are skewed by the billion living a subsistence existence in the fields and having a very low Co2 cost.

It's like me reducing my household per capita Co2 level by having more children and getting them to live in tents in the garden...

[anonymous-user]

Volvo has hit the nail on the head. This and the ID.4 look absolutely fantastic in all forms for a daily driver/modern family hauler

[Arsecati]

Miserablegit said:

I am able to ascertain the erroneous basis for your assertions.

China's industrial growth continues at massive environmental cost.

To compare like with like one must compare the damage caused based on per capita involved in that production process. China's figures are skewed by the billion living a subsistence existence in the fields and having a very low Co2 cost.

It's like me reducing my household per capita Co2 level by having more children and getting them to live in tents in the garden...

'Ascertain assertions'? Now there's a phrase you don't hear every day - I suddenly feel rather dim.

I don't deal in emotion my friend, I'm only interested in fact, data and/or analysis. You've provided some wide ranging 'assertions' yourself there, but funnily enough - no actual evidence.

Just provide some reasoned analyses to back up your hypotheses (QAnon fan pages on Facebook don't count), and I may furnish you with some credibility.

But if all you have is your opinion then, well, as the saying goes: 'Opinions are like @rseholes............'

Peace brother.

[Peldrigal]

Arsecati said:

Miserablegit said:

Using the fact that China has a population of 1.4Bn and many are living in poverty to justify a “low” per capita CO2 figure is disingenuous.
China has hugely polluting methods of production and that needs to be addressed-
Ah, my new Geely 4000 - it’s a zero pollution EV built and run on Unicorn farts. Yes, the unicorns are factory farmed in areas of mass deforestation required by the process and we feed them lead-poisoned children but it’s zero emission at the exhaust pipe albeit it’s a fake pipe.

Right, so you're not really a fan of actual facts and raw data then? Hmmm, interesting perspective there.

But he is right: CO2 per capita is a very bad metric to compare countries with vastly different levels of economic development. You need something like CO2 per unit of output, and even deciding what unit of output you use can be contentious: do you use dollars, dollars at purchasing power parity, tons of product?

[DonkeyApple]

Consumer debt levels per capita would show up the biggest drivers of pollution.

[Court_S]

9k rpm said:

That’s so ugly it looks like BMW ‘s current team have designed it!

It’s not that bad!

I can imagine Jamoor getting very exciting about Volvo’s plans to sell direct to us, he’s been unusually excited about this prospect for ages. I’m less of a fan; I like to have a nose about and drive a car first plus the RRP’s are a work of fiction and offset with dealer and manufacturer incentives. Getting rid of the dealers will be worse I think. We’ll end up with the usual RRP’s but less of the discounts to shift them. Will the manufacturer get involved with used sales or will the days of franchised used cars be gone too?

As for the car in question, not really my cup of tea but I guess it’s following the current trends. As mentioned by another poster, EV’s do very much seem to be for the more well off given the current costs.

[SWoll]

ajap1979 said:

Dedders said:

It’s the cost more than anything to me, £60k for a relatively small car in their range. I hate to think what the cost will be for a V90 sized family car, I’d guess it will be pushing 90-100k.

I don't mind the look of the car, it's the sort of thing my wife would like, but the cost is crazy. People are complaining about a top of the range Golf with similar straight line performance being £40k, but it's somehow OK for this to be £25k more?

Have you seen what Audi are asking for the E-Tron S which is a similar size and no quicker/more efficient due to horrendous weight? £90k before options..

Court_S said:

As for the car in question, not really my cup of tea but I guess it’s following the current trends. As mentioned by another poster, EV’s do very much seem to be for the more well off given the current costs.

Lots of EV's in the £20-30k range and a few dropping below £20k now, they just rarely get reported on here.

Edited by SWoll on Wednesday 3rd March 13:44

[rwindmill]

PH User said:

SWoll said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

SWoll said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

YES another 2 ton SUV!!!!!

-Said no one.Ever-

Sales figures would suggest otherwise?

They sell millions of white fridges too. I don't see anyone scalping the lastest indesit on ebay.

Did that analogy actually work in your head?

Exactly, the sales figures show that lots of people like SUVs

Do they like SUV's.............or do they buy them because everyone else has them?

Never underestimate 'Herd mentality' or 'Peer pressure'

[SWoll]

rwindmill said:

PH User said:

SWoll said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

SWoll said:

Harrison Bergeron said:

YES another 2 ton SUV!!!!!

-Said no one.Ever-

Sales figures would suggest otherwise?

They sell millions of white fridges too. I don't see anyone scalping the lastest indesit on ebay.

Did that analogy actually work in your head?

Exactly, the sales figures show that lots of people like SUVs

Do they like SUV's.............or do they buy them because everyone else has them?

Never underestimate 'Herd mentality' or 'Peer pressure'

They like them. High driving position, practical, feel safer etc.

[Bispal]

Glosphil said:

Was having a discussion on electric cars with a few friends and all agreed that we wanted an EV with similar spec to our existing cars with a range of at least 250 miles. Didn't need to be faster - I suspect that insurance companies will take into account motor max power when setting premiums. Obviously the EVs will need some extra power to offset the extra weight.
Price not more than 20% above latest ICE version of current cars.
Pre-Covid we averaged 8-10k miles a year - we're all retired.
We all have double width driveways & garages so re-charging not a problem

So we need to replace:
Leon FR (150) hatckback
Audi A4 (140) Avant
VW EOS (140)
Golf (125)
Renault Clio (100)
Fabia (100)
Clio (75)
MX-5 (158)
Notice there are no SUVs.

So £40k+ cars are out. Not much choice on the market yet. Most EVs being introduced seem to be high-powered and high priced; and many are SUVs.

Want? Why?

All those cars seem reasonably decent (except the MX5 which is utterly outstanding), all are already manufactured and have embodied CO2. Why throw them away and replace with 8 new cars, 12 tonnes of raw materials?

So if its for environmental reasons its not the right decision, if its for economic reasons its not the right decision as there will be £240k to be spent. If they are all knackered and beyond repair fair enough but if not this is exactly the problem with EV's, people just 'want' them and all the CO2 to make them its just an utter waste. Cars are now like phones, just dispensable and in need of constant upgrades and replacement.

[Arsecati]

DonkeyApple said:

Consumer debt levels per capita would show up the biggest drivers of pollution.

Very good, I like that one. I like that one a lot!

[CDP]

Bispal said:

Glosphil said:

Was having a discussion on electric cars with a few friends and all agreed that we wanted an EV with similar spec to our existing cars with a range of at least 250 miles. Didn't need to be faster - I suspect that insurance companies will take into account motor max power when setting premiums. Obviously the EVs will need some extra power to offset the extra weight.
Price not more than 20% above latest ICE version of current cars.
Pre-Covid we averaged 8-10k miles a year - we're all retired.
We all have double width driveways & garages so re-charging not a problem

So we need to replace:
Leon FR (150) hatckback
Audi A4 (140) Avant
VW EOS (140)
Golf (125)
Renault Clio (100)
Fabia (100)
Clio (75)
MX-5 (158)
Notice there are no SUVs.

So £40k+ cars are out. Not much choice on the market yet. Most EVs being introduced seem to be high-powered and high priced; and many are SUVs.

Want? Why?

All those cars seem reasonably decent (except the MX5 which is utterly outstanding), all are already manufactured and have embodied CO2. Why throw them away and replace with 8 new cars, 12 tonnes of raw materials?

So if its for environmental reasons its not the right decision, if its for economic reasons its not the right decision as there will be £240k to be spent. If they are all knackered and beyond repair fair enough but if not this is exactly the problem with EV's, people just 'want' them and all the CO2 to make them its just an utter waste. Cars are now like phones, just dispensable and in need of constant upgrades and replacement.

Exactly.

I'm waiting until I need a more efficient car (e.g. commuting) or my existing car dies when I'll weigh up new (leased?) EV v. used (paid for) ICE.

[Arsecati]

Peldrigal said:

But he is right: CO2 per capita is a very bad metric to compare countries with vastly different levels of economic development. You need something like CO2 per unit of output, and even deciding what unit of output you use can be contentious: do you use dollars, dollars at purchasing power parity, tons of product?

Cool, so when you've got around to formulating that viable alternative, you'll come back and let the rest of the world know then, yeah? Cheers.