RE: EV conversions for Morgan and Triumph
Discussion
Stag was a bad choice as the engine noise is part of the enjoyment.
Also, it’s the first ev conversion that provides a backwards step performance-wise.
4ftlb up on standard but 40-odd hp down compared to the V8.
As others have said a DS would be improved by a good electric conversion but I’m not so sure it works in a stag.
Also, it’s the first ev conversion that provides a backwards step performance-wise.
4ftlb up on standard but 40-odd hp down compared to the V8.
As others have said a DS would be improved by a good electric conversion but I’m not so sure it works in a stag.
In amongst this story, there's something interesting to me; the retention of the manual gearbox.
If sports car manufactures could continue fitting a manual gearbox between the electric motor and the diff, and if they could code the motor in such a way as to dramatically alter the responses of the motor at different rotational velocities, effectively mimicking a traditional torque curve, and if they could accurately synthesise the sound of a decent internal combustion engine and map it perfectly to the torque curve and the load (overrun is important), and if they can get a range of 300+ miles, and if they can keep the weight low in the body and ideally to a minimum, then I might just get excited about an electric future.
Imagine being able to select your toque curve and sound based on other cars. Rev-mad VTEC one day, torque-rich V8 the next. Ture, it's fake, but so is synthesised music, and I love that, so I could be down for it, if done well.
Lot of "ifs" in all that, though...
If sports car manufactures could continue fitting a manual gearbox between the electric motor and the diff, and if they could code the motor in such a way as to dramatically alter the responses of the motor at different rotational velocities, effectively mimicking a traditional torque curve, and if they could accurately synthesise the sound of a decent internal combustion engine and map it perfectly to the torque curve and the load (overrun is important), and if they can get a range of 300+ miles, and if they can keep the weight low in the body and ideally to a minimum, then I might just get excited about an electric future.
Imagine being able to select your toque curve and sound based on other cars. Rev-mad VTEC one day, torque-rich V8 the next. Ture, it's fake, but so is synthesised music, and I love that, so I could be down for it, if done well.
Lot of "ifs" in all that, though...
chrispmartha said:
This is the sort of electric car design I can get excited about.
Too many of the electric cars that are being produced look like what we expect a car to look like.
But the main reason for that is the engine/drivetrain set up of ICE cars. You need the engine to be connected to the gearbox, to the diff, to the wheels, with something rigid that can rotate.
Designs like the Citroen are more appealing to me as they throw away that template and design something around the technology they have, as opposed to putting that technology into a shape they already have,
PH article said:
The same ‘Hyper9’ high-voltage brushless motor setup is deployed in the Morgan, with identical outputs to the Stag, with the 4/4’s original manual gearbox also retained for three-pedal driving. Again, range is rated at about 150 miles per charge, in a car that might be more widely liked because it only traded a four-cylinder for the battery-powered layout. Also, the new power output is more closely aligned with the original engine’s 114hp; by contrast, the Stag has been ‘downgraded’ by 38hp.
If it’s 1957 Morgan 4/4 that power figure is miles off.In 1957 Morgan were using a Ford 100e side valve engine with 36bhp. Even a ‘70-80s crossflow 4/4 would need quite a bit of tuning to reach 114bhp.
I applaud anyone undertaking an ev conversion of a ‘classic’ and then using it regularly and keeping it on the road and in the public eye.
I think without exception the current and incoming crop of ev’s are blandly styled and aesthetically uninspiring.
I have never liked the Stag or the Morgan but seeing something like this on the road is going to catch my eye and make me smile far more than the latest polestar/Tesla/ipace/id3/etc
And so what that they don’t have airbags, crumple zones etc. So long as they had a seatbelt I’d take that risk driving one
I think without exception the current and incoming crop of ev’s are blandly styled and aesthetically uninspiring.
I have never liked the Stag or the Morgan but seeing something like this on the road is going to catch my eye and make me smile far more than the latest polestar/Tesla/ipace/id3/etc
And so what that they don’t have airbags, crumple zones etc. So long as they had a seatbelt I’d take that risk driving one
I can't wait to see a EV converted Jensen Interceptor or Lambo Countach!
Said nobody ever, to be fair the Triumph snag was a horrible car to drive, the only real reason for owning one was the characteristic burble and the styling, and being a manual EV you can stick it in 4th and leave it there, absolutely no reason to change gear...
boring comes to mind..
This whole "keeping classic cars on the road" thing they have going on makes it sound like you won't be able to drive them in 10yrs time, ou'll be able to drive them in 20yrs I hazard..
As Harry Metcalfe said in his video on the 2030 ban, with the way EV's are selling there is no way they'll have a majority by 2035 so Petrol will still be around..
As for diesel if you own an old classic diesel there is no reason why you can't make bio diesel, an old chap up the road has been running his 200tdi Landy on the stuff since 2009 and allegedly hasn't used a pump since 2011 which is interesting..
There is no doubt that the love of EV conversions for classic has been growing, however their value to enthusiasts will drop off a cliff.
People like Lunaz who rebuild Range rover classics and then charge starting at £245k which is around 8x its market value as a V8 is madness,
Same for other classic conversions..
Don't do it if you want to get your money back.
Said nobody ever, to be fair the Triumph snag was a horrible car to drive, the only real reason for owning one was the characteristic burble and the styling, and being a manual EV you can stick it in 4th and leave it there, absolutely no reason to change gear...
boring comes to mind..
This whole "keeping classic cars on the road" thing they have going on makes it sound like you won't be able to drive them in 10yrs time, ou'll be able to drive them in 20yrs I hazard..
As Harry Metcalfe said in his video on the 2030 ban, with the way EV's are selling there is no way they'll have a majority by 2035 so Petrol will still be around..
As for diesel if you own an old classic diesel there is no reason why you can't make bio diesel, an old chap up the road has been running his 200tdi Landy on the stuff since 2009 and allegedly hasn't used a pump since 2011 which is interesting..
There is no doubt that the love of EV conversions for classic has been growing, however their value to enthusiasts will drop off a cliff.
People like Lunaz who rebuild Range rover classics and then charge starting at £245k which is around 8x its market value as a V8 is madness,
Same for other classic conversions..
Don't do it if you want to get your money back.
Whilst an electric motor might reduce the maintenance burden a bit, is it really enough to make these cars a useable daily for a non mechanically minded owner? Many classics need things like regular greasing of balljoints, regular adjustment of wheel bearings and adjustment of drum brakes. That's before we get onto staying on top of the bodywork...
RECr said:
Whilst an electric motor might reduce the maintenance burden a bit, is it really enough to make these cars a useable daily for a non mechanically minded owner? Many classics need things like regular greasing of balljoints, regular adjustment of wheel bearings and adjustment of drum brakes. That's before we get onto staying on top of the bodywork...
...all of which are things that would need attention if they were powered by fairy dust and unicorn $hite...they may not become a usable daily but it is certainly one less thing to worry about, particularly in the Stag's case..RECr said:
Whilst an electric motor might reduce the maintenance burden a bit, is it really enough to make these cars a useable daily for a non mechanically minded owner? Many classics need things like regular greasing of balljoints, regular adjustment of wheel bearings and adjustment of drum brakes. That's before we get onto staying on top of the bodywork...
Except all the ones that really don't. 
biggbn said:
RECr said:
Whilst an electric motor might reduce the maintenance burden a bit, is it really enough to make these cars a useable daily for a non mechanically minded owner? Many classics need things like regular greasing of balljoints, regular adjustment of wheel bearings and adjustment of drum brakes. That's before we get onto staying on top of the bodywork...
...all of which are things that would need attention if they were powered by fairy dust and unicorn $hite...they may not become a usable daily but it is certainly one less thing to worry about, particularly in the Stag's case..I also question those who say these cars will become dailies - the kind of person who wants to throw away the engine probably won't accept all the other compromises that come with an old car: the poor ergonomics, the vagueness of the steering and brakes, the lack of entertainment tech, climate control, passive and active safety etc, etc. It's not the just the engine in these cars that's old tech. Yes, some can be retro-fitted, but it's still going to be quite hair-shirt compared to your Model 3.
I suspect these conversions are going to be the subject of some derision in the future, particularly if synthetic fuels* arrive and substantially reduce the carbon footprint of running these cars in their original form.
* Yes, this is Donkeyapple bait!
Edited by NDNDNDND on Thursday 15th April 19:44
Henry_b said:
As Harry Metcalfe said in his video on the 2030 ban, with the way EV's are selling there is no way they'll have a majority by 2035 so Petrol will still be around.. .
Harry hasn't said that. The rate of change is pretty much predictable. We buy 2m new cars a year. We have a fleet of approaching 40m cars. It took the whole of the last decade and massive incentives to sell just 100k EVs. We then bought around 100k EVs last year alone and this year is predicted to be about 200k. It's fairly logical to assume that over the next 5 years that will increase year on year and that by 2025 we'll be in the ballpark of 500k cars. The fixed point is that by 2036 it'll finally be 2m.
It almost doesn't really matter what that actual rate actually is when you consider that even if 100% of new car sales as of today were EVs it would still take 20 years to work all ICE out of the fleet.
Just from the basic and uniform rate of change of new cars we clearly have decades of ICE use left.
Mathematically we all already know that EVs are going to be a slow and steady transition over many, many years.
DonkeyApple said:
Harry hasn't said that. The rate of change is pretty much predictable.
We buy 2m new cars a year. We have a fleet of approaching 40m cars. It took the whole of the last decade and massive incentives to sell just 100k EVs. We then bought around 100k EVs last year alone and this year is predicted to be about 200k. It's fairly logical to assume that over the next 5 years that will increase year on year and that by 2025 we'll be in the ballpark of 500k cars. The fixed point is that by 2036 it'll finally be 2m.
It almost doesn't really matter what that actual rate actually is when you consider that even if 100% of new car sales as of today were EVs it would still take 20 years to work all ICE out of the fleet.
Just from the basic and uniform rate of change of new cars we clearly have decades of ICE use left.
Mathematically we all already know that EVs are going to be a slow and steady transition over many, many years.
We buy 2m new cars a year. We have a fleet of approaching 40m cars. It took the whole of the last decade and massive incentives to sell just 100k EVs. We then bought around 100k EVs last year alone and this year is predicted to be about 200k. It's fairly logical to assume that over the next 5 years that will increase year on year and that by 2025 we'll be in the ballpark of 500k cars. The fixed point is that by 2036 it'll finally be 2m.
It almost doesn't really matter what that actual rate actually is when you consider that even if 100% of new car sales as of today were EVs it would still take 20 years to work all ICE out of the fleet.
Just from the basic and uniform rate of change of new cars we clearly have decades of ICE use left.
Mathematically we all already know that EVs are going to be a slow and steady transition over many, many years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CUA2imRYRM
'ave a look sat this
Mrs B got Electric Classic Cars to convert her 1970 Fiat 500L to electric power.
She didn't like faffing with the choke settings and the like. She just wanted a fun car to waft around Suffolk in.
The car is now eager, nippy, easily keeps up with A12 traffic and above all, is reliable.
She loves it and so do I. It's totally transformed the car.
Furthermore, I checked with FIAT and they said that as they'd built over four and a half million of the buggers they'd allow Mrs B to electrify hers. *
She didn't like faffing with the choke settings and the like. She just wanted a fun car to waft around Suffolk in.
The car is now eager, nippy, easily keeps up with A12 traffic and above all, is reliable.
She loves it and so do I. It's totally transformed the car.
Furthermore, I checked with FIAT and they said that as they'd built over four and a half million of the buggers they'd allow Mrs B to electrify hers. *
* Of course I didn't, silly
NDNDNDND said:
biggbn said:
RECr said:
Whilst an electric motor might reduce the maintenance burden a bit, is it really enough to make these cars a useable daily for a non mechanically minded owner? Many classics need things like regular greasing of balljoints, regular adjustment of wheel bearings and adjustment of drum brakes. That's before we get onto staying on top of the bodywork...
...all of which are things that would need attention if they were powered by fairy dust and unicorn $hite...they may not become a usable daily but it is certainly one less thing to worry about, particularly in the Stag's case..I also question those who say these cars will become dailies - the kind of person who wants to throw away the engine probably won't accept all the other compromises that come with an old car: the poor ergonomics, the vagueness of the steering and brakes, the lack of entertainment tech, climate control, passive and active safety etc, etc. It's not the just the engine in these cars that's old tech. Yes, some can be retro-fitted, but it's still going to be quite hair-shirt compared to your Model 3.
I suspect these conversions are going to be the subject of some derision in the future, particularly if synthetic fuels* arrive and substantially reduce the carbon footprint of running these cars in their original form.
* Yes, this is Donkeyapple bait!
Edited by NDNDNDND on Thursday 15th April 19:44
SweptVolume said:
In amongst this story, there's something interesting to me; the retention of the manual gearbox.
If sports car manufactures could continue fitting a manual gearbox between the electric motor and the diff, and if they could code the motor in such a way as to dramatically alter the responses of the motor at different rotational velocities, effectively mimicking a traditional torque curve, and if they could accurately synthesise the sound of a decent internal combustion engine and map it perfectly to the torque curve and the load (overrun is important), and if they can get a range of 300+ miles, and if they can keep the weight low in the body and ideally to a minimum, then I might just get excited about an electric future.
Imagine being able to select your toque curve and sound based on other cars. Rev-mad VTEC one day, torque-rich V8 the next. Ture, it's fake, but so is synthesised music, and I love that, so I could be down for it, if done well.
Lot of "ifs" in all that, though...
They retain the gearbox because it simplifies how to get the motor to drive the wheels, they basically use all the existing mechanical bits instead of having to work out how to fit an electric motor in the boot to drive the back wheels.If sports car manufactures could continue fitting a manual gearbox between the electric motor and the diff, and if they could code the motor in such a way as to dramatically alter the responses of the motor at different rotational velocities, effectively mimicking a traditional torque curve, and if they could accurately synthesise the sound of a decent internal combustion engine and map it perfectly to the torque curve and the load (overrun is important), and if they can get a range of 300+ miles, and if they can keep the weight low in the body and ideally to a minimum, then I might just get excited about an electric future.
Imagine being able to select your toque curve and sound based on other cars. Rev-mad VTEC one day, torque-rich V8 the next. Ture, it's fake, but so is synthesised music, and I love that, so I could be down for it, if done well.
Lot of "ifs" in all that, though...
The really big problem with this is that it adds a lot more drive train losses in to the system which dramatically affects the range of these types of conversion.
For example Range Rover conversion with 75KW battery from Tesla P85 Model S gets around 175 miles, compared to the Tesla's 260+.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjOY4JBmy4
Henry_b said:
Do You have the timing? It starts with talk of ICE sales ending in 2030 but it's 2035, 2030 is just the point at which ICE has to be hybrid. Thanks. Either way, the UK isn't going to change the rate at which it replaces cars so it's going to take decades.
kambites said:
swisstoni said:
There’ll probably be the odd petrol pump still around but petrol users may have to do something similar to people who heat their houses with oil; get it delivered.
That's certainly another possibility. Either way, it will still be available for classic car enthusiasts. Yes, you can still buy leaded 4-star from pumps, but the number of suppliers across the whole country can very nearly be counted on your fingers, these days.
Yes, you can the stuff for delivery, but you're only allowed (even when you take suitable measures and with statutory notification of you local Petroleum Enforcement Authority) to store a maximum of 275 litres of the stuff at a domestic address, and the price per litre is pretty scary... it'd probably be cheaper to convert your car to run on cheap whiskey!
Blib said:
Mrs B got Electric Classic Cars to convert her 1970 Fiat 500L to electric power.
She didn't like faffing with the choke settings and the like. She just wanted a fun car to waft around Suffolk in.
The car is now eager, nippy, easily keeps up with A12 traffic and above all, is reliable.
She loves it and so do I. It's totally transformed the car.
Furthermore, I checked with FIAT and they said that as they'd built over four and a half million of the buggers they'd allow Mrs B to electrify hers. *
Stop making reasoned arguments based on actually putting your money where your mouth is! This thread is for half-baked hypothetical arguments only... She didn't like faffing with the choke settings and the like. She just wanted a fun car to waft around Suffolk in.
The car is now eager, nippy, easily keeps up with A12 traffic and above all, is reliable.
She loves it and so do I. It's totally transformed the car.
Furthermore, I checked with FIAT and they said that as they'd built over four and a half million of the buggers they'd allow Mrs B to electrify hers. *
* Of course I didn't, silly
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