18% of California EV drivers move back to ICE
Discussion
Lexington59 said:
I like the torque and acceleration. But until they fix the range, charging time and charging infrastructure I'll keep my ICE thanks.
what is wrong with the range? - a good percentage of EVs are cracking 250 miles in one charge - how far do you need to drive without taking a rest?What is wrong with charging times? - depending on how many miles you do in a day you could probably charge overnight, and if not, when you stop for a coffee after driving 250+ miles ?
What is wrong with the charging infrastructure ?- have you looked at a map of them recently? https://www.zap-map.com/live/
they are also adding, on average, 593 charging points every month
Lexington59 said:
I also hear hydrogen is far quicker to refuel, has good range just no infrastructure. Maybe they should start funding this ?
Hydrogen is a lot less efficient than electricity, please see infographic below.
Lexington59 said:
Perhaps the 'end of an era' propaganda and the 2030 ban we continually hear about from eco loons is a bit of an exaggeration.
I don't think you can exaggerate a law change, and i don't think the changes in our climate can be called propaganda, it really is happening.We as a country have committed to reducing our footprint, and, although there are many many other things we should be doing as well (cruise ships, air travel etc) banning the sale of ICEs will help massively.
Lexington59 said:
Still any excuse is a good one to continue to enjoy large capacity ICEs for a while yet...
There is absolutely no reason why this can't continue long after 2030. What could be better than an easy to drive, comfortable, supercar quick, with fiat 500 style running costs, ready to go every morning for your commute, and then a big burbling TVR in the garage for the odd blast to the coast on a weekend?Edited by Pixelpeep Z4 on Tuesday 4th May 09:29
Fatherdougal said:
That is a counter-view - albeit a very skewed one. I'd be very surprised if 18% of early adopters of CD players went back to cassette. Or 18% of early mobile users gave them up and went back to landlines. Given they are supposed to be te future of motoring and the only option to buy new from 2030, I'd say this shows why the takeup isn't anywhere near where it needs to be, given all the propaganda we get on EVs.
Cars are a vastly different product. There are usage cases where EV's are not viable; because of range (especially so in America), lack of body shapes (you still can't get an electric pickup truck), and up front cost. Some people circumstances will have changed to make an EV no longer viable, some will have got one because of tax incentives or a desire to be an early adopter when they didn't suit their circumstances in the first places. It makes perfect sense for these people to change back.They are also vastly more complex meaning a much more incremental nature to improvements; a CD is a CD. Phones are a better comparison, but landline to mobile doesn't work because they serve somewhat different purposes and up until pretty recently the vast majority of people had both. If you want to compare to other early adopter tech, how about the Palm Pilot or other PDAs? I imagine plenty of people who used them went back to a normal phone, before the iphone and Android smart phones came to dominate. And that happened in less time than there is for EV's to become dominate.
There's some interesting comments in this thread I made a while ago:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
They've been around ages now, are much more incremental, do some things well & some things not so well.
Not having to visit a petrol station again isn't a massive OMG AWESOME moment - most people go every 2/4 weeks when they're out shopping anyway, or when they get food from the petrol station Waitrose/M&S. This would be a big discriminator if regular ICE cars had a 50mile tank range, but they don't.
Having a silent drivetrain isn't a revelation; all new cars now are very quiet.
Having instant punch isn't a revelation; mainstream cars have had the feeling of turbo torque for decades.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Fatherdougal said:
That is a counter-view - albeit a very skewed one. I'd be very surprised if 18% of early adopters of CD players went back to cassette. Or 18% of early mobile users gave them up and went back to landlines. Given they are supposed to be te future of motoring and the only option to buy new from 2030, I'd say this shows why the takeup isn't anywhere near where it needs to be, given all the propaganda we get on EVs.
My view: EV's are not really 'game changing' like those past innovations were. They've been around ages now, are much more incremental, do some things well & some things not so well.
Not having to visit a petrol station again isn't a massive OMG AWESOME moment - most people go every 2/4 weeks when they're out shopping anyway, or when they get food from the petrol station Waitrose/M&S. This would be a big discriminator if regular ICE cars had a 50mile tank range, but they don't.
Having a silent drivetrain isn't a revelation; all new cars now are very quiet.
Having instant punch isn't a revelation; mainstream cars have had the feeling of turbo torque for decades.
Dark85 said:
Cars are a vastly different product. There are usage cases where EV's are not viable; because of range (especially so in America), lack of body shapes (you still can't get an electric pickup truck), and up front cost. Some people circumstances will have changed to make an EV no longer viable, some will have got one because of tax incentives or a desire to be an early adopter when they didn't suit their circumstances in the first places. It makes perfect sense for these people to change back.
They are also vastly more complex meaning a much more incremental nature to improvements; a CD is a CD. Phones are a better comparison, but landline to mobile doesn't work because they serve somewhat different purposes and up until pretty recently the vast majority of people had both. If you want to compare to other early adopter tech, how about the Palm Pilot or other PDAs? I imagine plenty of people who used them went back to a normal phone, before the iphone and Android smart phones came to dominate. And that happened in less time than there is for EV's to become dominate.
Fair enough, but PDAs and Palm Pilots didn't have significant tax breaks to encourage their take up, which EVs do and still people revert. Whilst I have no desire personally to have an EV, I don't really have a dog in this fight - I genuinely thought it was interesting that nearly a fifth of users would swap back - it doesn't really fit the narrative I've seen on PH.They are also vastly more complex meaning a much more incremental nature to improvements; a CD is a CD. Phones are a better comparison, but landline to mobile doesn't work because they serve somewhat different purposes and up until pretty recently the vast majority of people had both. If you want to compare to other early adopter tech, how about the Palm Pilot or other PDAs? I imagine plenty of people who used them went back to a normal phone, before the iphone and Android smart phones came to dominate. And that happened in less time than there is for EV's to become dominate.
Seems like EVs are like cyclists here - a bit polarising. As I say - I don't want one, but live and let live...
Fatherdougal said:
Seems like EVs are like cyclists here - a bit polarising. As I say - I don't want one, but live and let live...
The thing is I want both.I want a highly autonomous EV for long journeys with a reasonable range. I like to stretch my legs after 300 miles anyway, so a fast charge and a cup of coffee is no inconvenience.
I want a small sporty ICE or ICE/EV combination for a blast in the country. Something like an i8.
I don't see it as either/or.
kambites said:
Our future garage will be an Elise and something like an ID3. I have no desire to own an electric "fun" car but I no longer have any desire to own an ICE family car either. Fatherdougal said:
Fair enough, but PDAs and Palm Pilots didn't have significant tax breaks to encourage their take up, which EVs do and still people revert. Whilst I have no desire personally to have an EV, I don't really have a dog in this fight - I genuinely thought it was interesting that nearly a fifth of users would swap back - it doesn't really fit the narrative I've seen on PH.
As above though you are talking about early EV adopters and cheap lease deals in a country with cheap fuel costs, dreadful electricity supply for home charging and double the average yearly mileage of UK drivers. I think the fact that 80%+ stuck with it in that scenario is pretty impressive personally. so called said:
Sounds reasonable to me.
Earlier EV's charging times are slow, especially with the US 110v domestic supply.
82% kept their EV's.
I can't understand how someone bought a $40,000+ car, but didn't install a 240v outlet like they would have for their drier.Earlier EV's charging times are slow, especially with the US 110v domestic supply.
82% kept their EV's.
Edited by so called on Tuesday 4th May 08:10
Surely even landlords see the benefit in fitting chargers to their properties, especially if occupant is willing to contribute.
Sheepshanks said:
Filibuster said:
I have never understood, why the americans stil use 120V / 60 Hz instead of 230V / 50 Hz.
I don't understand why we (UK etc) still drive on the left. Although I suppose with EVs it becomes easier to engineer both.Filibuster said:
I have never understood, why the americans stil use 120V / 60 Hz instead of 230V / 50 Hz.
typicallysafety, they dont have circuit protections we do
they have multiple 120s thou, and use 240 for washing machines and other high load devices so its not a major job to get 32A 240 charging point
Sheepshanks said:
Filibuster said:
I have never understood, why the americans stil use 120V / 60 Hz instead of 230V / 50 Hz.
I don't understand why we (UK etc) still drive on the left. Although I suppose with EVs it becomes easier to engineer both.kambites said:
Our future garage will be an Elise and something like an ID3. I have no desire to own an electric "fun" car but I no longer have any desire to own an ICE family car either. 
Dave Hedgehog said:
then surely the EU would drive on the left?
Possible answer No idea if it is true.
I wonder how many more of this "sort" of thread we will get on PH over the next few years as people try to somehow ignore the inevitable?
Lets look at a situation:
5 people choose for whatever reason to buy /lease an EV
When they choose their next car, 4 out of those 5 choose another EV.
If you are pointing at that one person who went back to an ICE and shouting "HA-HA! told you EVs don't work" er, i've got news for you..........
If in a country where fuel is incredbily cheap, travel distances are long, and physical space is not in short supply mostly, over 80% of people trying an EV chose another one the second time, then what do you think the uptake is going to be in say the UK, where fuel is V.expensive, our crowded, heavily taxed, and short of space urban and sub-urban areas are bursting at the seams, and increasingly, pollution and consumption is starting to become socially unacceptable?
But here's the rub. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK!
This is because the OEMs, the people who make the cars you can buy are not going to be making ICEs for very much longer. The wind changed a long time ago (i'm going to suggest around 2017 ime) and the OEs realised they need to adapt, to evolve, and now, some 4 years later we are starting to see the fruits of their labours, with an ever increasingly stream of EVs product. And don't expect it to slow down, quite the opposite. As the large Chinese manufacturers try to get a foot hold wth aggressive pricing, expect the EU/US manufacturers to react. More product, better capability and spec, and cheaper.
The good news, is that us car enthusiasts will soon be forgotten, and we can have our "fun car" in the garage for those sunny days, whilst the rest of the world simply gets around in their quiet, efficient, and low polluting EVs.
Lets look at a situation:
5 people choose for whatever reason to buy /lease an EV
When they choose their next car, 4 out of those 5 choose another EV.
If you are pointing at that one person who went back to an ICE and shouting "HA-HA! told you EVs don't work" er, i've got news for you..........
If in a country where fuel is incredbily cheap, travel distances are long, and physical space is not in short supply mostly, over 80% of people trying an EV chose another one the second time, then what do you think the uptake is going to be in say the UK, where fuel is V.expensive, our crowded, heavily taxed, and short of space urban and sub-urban areas are bursting at the seams, and increasingly, pollution and consumption is starting to become socially unacceptable?
But here's the rub. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK!
This is because the OEMs, the people who make the cars you can buy are not going to be making ICEs for very much longer. The wind changed a long time ago (i'm going to suggest around 2017 ime) and the OEs realised they need to adapt, to evolve, and now, some 4 years later we are starting to see the fruits of their labours, with an ever increasingly stream of EVs product. And don't expect it to slow down, quite the opposite. As the large Chinese manufacturers try to get a foot hold wth aggressive pricing, expect the EU/US manufacturers to react. More product, better capability and spec, and cheaper.
The good news, is that us car enthusiasts will soon be forgotten, and we can have our "fun car" in the garage for those sunny days, whilst the rest of the world simply gets around in their quiet, efficient, and low polluting EVs.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 4th May 11:06
vaud said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
then surely the EU would drive on the left?
Possible answer No idea if it is true.
"I will drive my V8 all over Grunter Thunderbirds lentil patch, ICE till I die etc..."
Always makes me laugh where we think what we like is all that important, thing is, you will pop off and those who replace you will be, more than likely quite happy with an EV.
Its more about the whole, what 60 million folk in this country and billions in all the others do, a few old blokes who like noisy engines and going fast dont really matter and you can carry on enjoying your ICE, nobody has said they are taking it off you. I will continue to not really want an EV but I dont get all puffed up and Charlton Hestony about it.
ICE has largely had its day, EV's are now at the stage, development wise where cars were in like the 1950's where they worked but were a bit of a pain in the arse and hard work needing decokes and trunnions greasing on an hourly basis. Folk put up with that as the alternative was a horse, bicycle, bus or walking.
We currently still have ICE as an alternative, and they are pretty compelling, long range, easy refueling, low maintenance etc, incomparable to some charming but generally crap 1950s car, its taken all those years to go from a Triumph Mayflower to a modern car.
The EV wont take 50/60 years to go through iterations making it progressively less s
t, they are already pretty amazing and benefit from all the ICE developments, they are pretty well sorted apart from the batteries and charging.
Its a big "But" that one, but here we are, ICE development has slowed and you have legions of car companies, chemical companies and oil companies all vying and developing that battery tech, its only nine years since the Tesla Model S was released and now you see EV's everywhere, I get Autocar and about 50 % seems to be EV content now.
I really wouldnt bet against the EV, which is already better in every way save for the charging and range (Noise if you are bothered)
I fully expect that before the ban, the capacity, weight and charging will be massively better, still 8 and a bit years but manufacturers will start closing down engine plants or converting to building motors.
Suspect most of us on here who are say 40 and older could probably quite easily never need to own an EV, think for the younger folk it might get harder and become a hobby. Fashion will play a part as suspect a diesel owner in 2025 will look like Fred Dibnah driving his Traction Engine
Always makes me laugh where we think what we like is all that important, thing is, you will pop off and those who replace you will be, more than likely quite happy with an EV.
Its more about the whole, what 60 million folk in this country and billions in all the others do, a few old blokes who like noisy engines and going fast dont really matter and you can carry on enjoying your ICE, nobody has said they are taking it off you. I will continue to not really want an EV but I dont get all puffed up and Charlton Hestony about it.
ICE has largely had its day, EV's are now at the stage, development wise where cars were in like the 1950's where they worked but were a bit of a pain in the arse and hard work needing decokes and trunnions greasing on an hourly basis. Folk put up with that as the alternative was a horse, bicycle, bus or walking.
We currently still have ICE as an alternative, and they are pretty compelling, long range, easy refueling, low maintenance etc, incomparable to some charming but generally crap 1950s car, its taken all those years to go from a Triumph Mayflower to a modern car.
The EV wont take 50/60 years to go through iterations making it progressively less s
t, they are already pretty amazing and benefit from all the ICE developments, they are pretty well sorted apart from the batteries and charging.Its a big "But" that one, but here we are, ICE development has slowed and you have legions of car companies, chemical companies and oil companies all vying and developing that battery tech, its only nine years since the Tesla Model S was released and now you see EV's everywhere, I get Autocar and about 50 % seems to be EV content now.
I really wouldnt bet against the EV, which is already better in every way save for the charging and range (Noise if you are bothered)
I fully expect that before the ban, the capacity, weight and charging will be massively better, still 8 and a bit years but manufacturers will start closing down engine plants or converting to building motors.
Suspect most of us on here who are say 40 and older could probably quite easily never need to own an EV, think for the younger folk it might get harder and become a hobby. Fashion will play a part as suspect a diesel owner in 2025 will look like Fred Dibnah driving his Traction Engine
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