RE: All-electric Caterham Seven promised
Discussion
Pan Pan Pan said:
The problem is that, this is the way the government currently (excuse the word) want us all to go, just like they did a little while ago, making people buy diesels to `save the planet' That all went well didn't it?
It went pretty well.
Unfortunately, while helping "save the planet" it didn't do much good for urban air quality.
We weren't forced into diesels - we were forced into lower CO2 cars, we chose diesels because the government didn't stop us and at the time choosing petrol cars with similar emissions would have meant choosing slower, smaller cars. Would that have been your preferred route?
BertBert said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
...find Simon Lamberts comments on building an EV Seven.
This I presume?...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vd1cIbzl8A&ab_channel=CarChatPodcastClipsInteresting that he says the main blocker is cost and confirms that a great driving experience is doable, but it's just different.
Edited by BertBert on Wednesday 19th May 15:28
As some have said Caterham's already seem quite expensive for what they are, but to make something like a Seven, three times more expensive, for what they already are, is likely to be hard thing to sell in sufficient numbers to make them viable, Especially with the performance of some of the other EV`s that will be available.
Just like the introduction of electric trains, has largely brought about the demise of most steam trains, an EV seven is (like electric trains) likely to be cleaner and more efficient, but no where near as different and interesting, as the original. This alone, is possibly all it needs, to bring about the end of the Seven type cars.
otolith said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
The problem is that, this is the way the government currently (excuse the word) want us all to go, just like they did a little while ago, making people buy diesels to `save the planet' That all went well didn't it?
It went pretty well.Unfortunately, while helping "save the planet" it didn't do much good for urban air quality.
We weren't forced into diesels - we were forced into lower CO2 cars, we chose diesels because the government didn't stop us and at the time choosing petrol cars with similar emissions would have meant choosing slower, smaller cars. Would that have been your preferred route?
Most company vehicle drivers, were obliged to use diesels by their companies, whether they liked it, or not, and since company, car sales accounted for a large proportion of the new cars registered in the UK over a significant period, there are no prizes for guessing what effect this had on the sales of diesel cars, in comparison to petrol.
Since governments have done U turns, and are now trying to force people out of diesels, I would say again, that it did not go very well at all, did it?
Max_Torque said:
DonkeyApple said:
Johnybananas1 said:
An Electric Cater 7 ?
What's the point ? If you want an electric vehicle, by a milk float.
Electric vehicles are actually worse for the enviroment than petrol cars all things considered. And that's not counting the "what do you do with the nackered batteries" question.
They'll be making horse drawn Sevens next. When is all this crap going to stop.
Is this genuine or a parody post?What's the point ? If you want an electric vehicle, by a milk float.
Electric vehicles are actually worse for the enviroment than petrol cars all things considered. And that's not counting the "what do you do with the nackered batteries" question.
They'll be making horse drawn Sevens next. When is all this crap going to stop.
otolith said:
They succeeded in reducing CO2 emissions, which was their objective.
They got the unwanted side effect of worsening urban air quality.
Environmentalists would say that this is because they were too soft on motorists. I guess you agree.
There are better options available now.
I wonder what the unwanted side effects on switching everyone to EV`s will be? They got the unwanted side effect of worsening urban air quality.
Environmentalists would say that this is because they were too soft on motorists. I guess you agree.
There are better options available now.
No one knows yet, but what everyone does know, is that no system yet devised by man is ever perfect.
Pan Pan Pan said:
I wonder what the unwanted side effects on switching everyone to EV`s will be?
No one knows yet, but what everyone does know, is that no system yet devised by man is ever perfect.
I think it's quite conceivable that technology will improve and eventually an even better option will come along - and battery EVs will join ICEs and horses on the scrapheap. No one knows yet, but what everyone does know, is that no system yet devised by man is ever perfect.
But so? IS that an argument for sticking with horses?
Pan Pan Pan said:
otolith said:
They succeeded in reducing CO2 emissions, which was their objective.
They got the unwanted side effect of worsening urban air quality.
Environmentalists would say that this is because they were too soft on motorists. I guess you agree.
There are better options available now.
I wonder what the unwanted side effects on switching everyone to EV`s will be? They got the unwanted side effect of worsening urban air quality.
Environmentalists would say that this is because they were too soft on motorists. I guess you agree.
There are better options available now.
No one knows yet, but what everyone does know, is that no system yet devised by man is ever perfect.
you can have a near perfect system, 100% renewable energy with a circular economy
otolith said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
I wonder what the unwanted side effects on switching everyone to EV`s will be?
No one knows yet, but what everyone does know, is that no system yet devised by man is ever perfect.
I think it's quite conceivable that technology will improve and eventually an even better option will come along - and battery EVs will join ICEs and horses on the scrapheap. No one knows yet, but what everyone does know, is that no system yet devised by man is ever perfect.
But so? IS that an argument for sticking with horses?
Energy storage is the single biggest issue retarding human progress.
otolith said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
I wonder what the unwanted side effects on switching everyone to EV`s will be?
No one knows yet, but what everyone does know, is that no system yet devised by man is ever perfect.
I think it's quite conceivable that technology will improve and eventually an even better option will come along - and battery EVs will join ICEs and horses on the scrapheap. No one knows yet, but what everyone does know, is that no system yet devised by man is ever perfect.
But so? IS that an argument for sticking with horses?
Will we run out of the rare and expensive raw materials needed for the batteries? Will the generation, and power grids be able able to cope with the massively increased demand? what effect will increased generation have on emissions, will we have to go nuclear to meet anywhere near the increased demand?
What does an EV driver who was not diligent in recharging their vehicle do when their battery runs out, whilst stuck for a long time in a traffic jam?, EV`s cannot easily be towed.
What horses were you referring to, I did not mention horses? How many of the currently available motor technicians, will the motor industry lose, when there are no more ICE motors to work on? a failed electric motor wont need much work to replace, so will we just have electric motor fitters, and factories, churning out electric motors, Will there be any point in motor sport any more, if everyone is just driving a hair dryer (see I am doing it now) The electric car racing seen so far, is just boring, soul less, and hardly worth watching. These are just a few of the questions that no one seems to have any real answers for at present.
Just like few understood how motor vehicle ownership and use would evolve .when ICE vehicles were first introduced.
Will there be any point in having tuning workshops and the skilled staff who currently work in them.
Of course there are always an arrogant few, who believe they know all the answers, aren't there?
otolith said:
So - what is your alternative solution to decarbonise personal transport?
I don't have one, and don't believe there is one, especially when we are increasing the numbers of us, who will want to have and consume resources, and consequently produce emissions.Still I suspect that `trying' to do that, does make some people feel all warm and fuzzy about themselves.
Max_Torque said:
It seems that EV news is now basically jam to bees, only those bees are actually thick-as-mince-troll-bees for whom thinking, let alone critical or logical thinking, is a concept far, far beyond their ken.......... ;-)
If only everyone was as clever as you eh? Still waiting for your EV Caterham stats....
Should be easy...like this;
Weight 530 kg
Power 210 hp
Range 30L fuel; approx 130 miles
I’ll ignore the minor details of packaging, as it’s all complete fiction of using the current S3 chassis.
Pan Pan Pan said:
otolith said:
So - what is your alternative solution to decarbonise personal transport?
I don't have one, and don't believe there is one, especially when we are increasing the numbers of us, who will want to have and consume resources, and consequently produce emissions.Still I suspect that `trying' to do that, does make some people feel all warm and fuzzy about themselves.
king up the climate then? That's your answer?Pan Pan Pan said:
These are just a few of the questions that no one seems to have any real answers for at present.
No answers? really:But will we be seeing increased deaths from pedestrians being run over by quiet EV`s driver ?
No. Because to kill someone with a car you really have to hit them at some speed. Realistically runing into someone at 3mph is not actually going to kill them. EVs make just as much noise as an ICE when at >15mph because most of the noise comes from the tyres and the air being pushed out of the way.
And of course, since 202o, new EVs by law must be fitted with low speed noise makers to avoid minor injury from low speed collisons with pedestrians
Will we run out of the rare and expensive raw materials needed for the batteries?
No for two reasons:
The major chemical elements used i a battery are not in any way rare. The "rare" elements do not make up a large proportion of the battery. A typical EV battery has around 10kg of Lithium in it. Worldwide identified Lithium reserves in 2020 and 2021 were estimated by the US Geological Survey (USGS) to be 17 million and 21 million tonnes. And as we know, if an element becomes in short supply, it's price goes up, and that gives an incentive to go out and find some more.
A battery does not "use up" any of the chemicals it is made from, and hence can be recycled and reused. As EV volumes ramp up, and there start to be large end-of-life batterys available it's going to be cheaper and eaiser to simply recycle those (As we already do with the conventional 12v lead acid battery in our cars)
Will the generation, and power grids be able able to cope with the massively increased demand?
Simple answer: YES. (see my other posts in this subject)
In fact a large private EV ownership is BENEFICIAL to a grid,because that massive storage capacity can be used to load level a dynamic grid that is made up from less predictable renewable sources.
what effect will increased generation have on emissions, will we have to go nuclear to meet anywhere near the increased demand?
EVs will allow reduced generation emissons because they can be used to load level a highly renwable grid, enabling that gird to be made up from a much more dynamic mix of generation assets. That load leveling also helps replace highly polluting but quick reacting generators such as gas turbine plants, or plants otherwise kept idling simply to enable a quick start
What does an EV driver who was not diligent in recharging their vehicle do when their battery runs out, whilst stuck for a long time in a traffic jam?, EV`s cannot easily be towed.
Assuming they have got to a totally flat battery (which is actually pretty hard to do, because modern EVs slow down gradually with lots of warning before they actual stop completely) they call a recovery service. Today, most services now include portable generators that are used to put enough charge into that cars battery to get it to a source of power (either a charger or just any 13a plug you can borrow).
And EVs can be towed if done correctly, and in fact, you can "Tow charge" an EV with the recovery truck as long as the battery isn't completely flat. Most recovery firms already have a "wheels lifted" service for recovering crashed and damaged cars anyway.
How many of the currently available motor technicians, will the motor industry lose, when there are no more ICE motors to work on? a failed electric motor wont need much work to replace, so will we just have electric motor fitters, and factories, churning out electric motors
Most car mechanics are already "fitters". Few mechanics actually carry out major rebuilds or reworks because modern cars are too complex, too expensive to pay for the amount of time it takes to actually properly rebuild a modern engine. Those fitters can easily change a battery pack module or cell if they can currently change a clutch or a set of brakes.
Will there be any point in motor sport any more, if everyone is just driving a hair dryer (see I am doing it now) The electric car racing seen so far, is just boring, soul less, and hardly worth watching.
Frankly, i find most modern motorsport boring. Rich people driving round in circles following each other in a series that has so many rules that the race itself becomes irrelevant. The winner of most modern motorsport is the team with the deepest pockets. The driver is already a "bit part" player ime.
ICE motorsport is increasinly hobbled by some vane attempt to be green, with fuel economy targets, quieter cars, and lets be honest, most motorsport is now at a level of performance where the key skill is "tyre management" and hence the old days of drifting around spectacularly are long gone.
Is EV motorsport any more boring? Probably, but i personally think all motorsport has had it day tbh. It grew up to replace the risk taking of the world wars immediately prior to it's mass interest, when you had a choice of "doing nothing" or "watching someone else do something". Today, thanks to better quality of life and more disposable income, most people can afford a hobby to do themselves rather than vicariously watching someone else do theirs, and thanks to virtual and online capabilities, the average teenager is going to find simple watching motorsports incredibly boring. Much more fun to race there mates virtually and be included in the action, even if virtual action!
Will there be any point in having tuning workshops and the skilled staff who currently work in them.
You can tune an EV, just like you can tune an ICE. Most ICE modifications these days are either stick on visuals (bigger wheels, body wraps etc) or electronic tuning of control units, and that won't change for an EV. A huge number of "tuners" are simply reflashers, and have little or no knowledge of how an engine works....
Pan Pan Pan said:
Of course there are always an arrogant few, who believe they know all the answers, aren't there?
If educating yourself, and going out of ones way to find and work out the answers is arrogant, then so be it.Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 21st May 13:27
ddom said:
Max_Torque said:
It seems that EV news is now basically jam to bees, only those bees are actually thick-as-mince-troll-bees for whom thinking, let alone critical or logical thinking, is a concept far, far beyond their ken.......... ;-)
If only everyone was as clever as you eh? Still waiting for your EV Caterham stats....
Should be easy...like this;
Weight 530 kg
Power 210 hp
Range 30L fuel; approx 130 miles
I’ll ignore the minor details of packaging, as it’s all complete fiction of using the current S3 chassis.
And if you could actually read you'd find that as i have told you at least 5 times in this thread, my suggested figures are already in my posts. Any read of this thread can simply go back a few pages and find my suggested masses, powers, energy capacity, recharging times and more.
If you can't be bothered to do that, then you are a TROLL and that 's the end of it. Don't blame me for your own shortcomings.
otolith said:
So we just continue fking up the climate then? That's your answer?
Let's be honest here, the real environmental answer is to not buy things that aren't needed. The actual issue is too much Western consumption but all the current solutions are based around maintaining the very excess consumption which is the root cause. The single most environmental act which central governments could do would be to limit consumer lending. king up the climate then? That's your answer?If we are going to be completely honest any form of Caterham product is manifestly part of the problem and can never be a part of any credible solution.
DonkeyApple said:
If we are going to be completely honest any form of Caterham product is manifestly part of the problem and can never be a part of any credible solution.
I'd have to disagree with that. Unless the definition of 'any credible solution' means that no-one can buy anything they don't absolutely need, we absolutely should be pushing to make things that are 'greener', less harmful to the planet.It would be fairer to say that an existing ICE Caterham can never be part of any credible solution, than to make the same statement about an electric version, in my opinion.
thewarlock said:
DonkeyApple said:
If we are going to be completely honest any form of Caterham product is manifestly part of the problem and can never be a part of any credible solution.
I'd have to disagree with that. Unless the definition of 'any credible solution' means that no-one can buy anything they don't absolutely need, we absolutely should be pushing to make things that are 'greener', less harmful to the planet.It would be fairer to say that an existing ICE Caterham can never be part of any credible solution, than to make the same statement about an electric version, in my opinion.
The reason we are pushing our passenger cars to all be EVs is because when most cars are EV, this will significantly reduce the overall impact of those cars on your environment. That's why we are doing it, and for most cars, the Focus's, the Golfs, etc, being an EV really has no downside to the majority end user.
Unfortunately, the side effect of the rules we really do need to apply to our cars is that very small volume, niche and fun cars like Caterhams get included as cars, but really lets be honest, they are used as fun toys rather than a means of actual transport (don't write in dear listener, i'm talking about in majority, not as any individual specific case).
Will making Caterhams as EVs change there environmental impact, frankly doubtfull.
Will making Caterhams as EVs measureable change the overall environmental impact from the grouping we call "cars" Hell no!
But should we do it anyway, or should we give this sort of "toy car" an exception? What message would that send out? For me i think it's better to accept we need to change, and to embrace that change, and apply it equally and fairly to all road driven cars.....
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