How should I deal with a tenancy agreement?
Discussion
I have a property I’d like to sell, the tenants have been there a number of years, I’ve explained
that I need to sell but alternative accommodation in the area is scarce.
They have offered to increase the rental to a more realistic market rent if they can stay for another year (about a 33% increase) I’ve excepted this and said that should they find somewhere else
they can leave without penalty or notice.
My question is what to do about a new tenancy agreement, leave it verbal or start a fresh one?
When they moved in it was by local estate agent on a finders fee only (they did the epc etc.)
that I need to sell but alternative accommodation in the area is scarce.
They have offered to increase the rental to a more realistic market rent if they can stay for another year (about a 33% increase) I’ve excepted this and said that should they find somewhere else
they can leave without penalty or notice.
My question is what to do about a new tenancy agreement, leave it verbal or start a fresh one?
When they moved in it was by local estate agent on a finders fee only (they did the epc etc.)
Are you up to date with all of the new requirements like EICR inspections & protected deposits? I only ask as the arrangement sounds a bit loose & you should have all the paperwork in order otherwise gaining possession could be difficult if they can't find anywhere else.
https://www.landlordzone.co.uk/documents/
https://www.landlordzone.co.uk/documents/
Thanks for all the above, yes I'm pretty well up-to-date with the regs etc, gas, deposit, ehic and so on, I'll check the last elec survey.
I had thought of selling with them in situ but at the rent they were paying it wasn't a great prospect.
I'm happy for them to stay another year at a fair rent so I'll see how it goes over the next year.
I had thought of selling with them in situ but at the rent they were paying it wasn't a great prospect.
I'm happy for them to stay another year at a fair rent so I'll see how it goes over the next year.
My company are currently looking for more residential BTL’s. We would be happy to take a property with tenant in situ. Feel free to PM me me with the details, even though you are now not looking to sell until next year.
As long as the yield is about right we would take almost anything.
As long as the yield is about right we would take almost anything.
No need for a knew tenancy agreement, if there is still time on the present agreement, then simply issue the tenants with a months notice (section 13(2) form) of the rent increase. Then simply allow their present tenancy agreement to roll over into a monthly statutory periodic tenancy agreement.
Worth pointing out that a statutory periodic tenancy agreement, is in itself a NEW agreement, therefore the Deposit needs re-protecting, copy of the Deposit certificate, prescribed information, and a copy of the EPC, annual gas safety certificate, electrical safety report and HMG's How to Rent leaflet. With the exception of the electrical report, I submit the documents both by email and hard paper copies, the former providing proof of receipt, thereby avoiding any possible future arguments.
Worth pointing out that a statutory periodic tenancy agreement, is in itself a NEW agreement, therefore the Deposit needs re-protecting, copy of the Deposit certificate, prescribed information, and a copy of the EPC, annual gas safety certificate, electrical safety report and HMG's How to Rent leaflet. With the exception of the electrical report, I submit the documents both by email and hard paper copies, the former providing proof of receipt, thereby avoiding any possible future arguments.
Wings said:
No need for a knew tenancy agreement, if there is still time on the present agreement, then simply issue the tenants with a months notice (section 13(2) form) of the rent increase. Then simply allow their present tenancy agreement to roll over into a monthly statutory periodic tenancy agreement.
Worth pointing out that a statutory periodic tenancy agreement, is in itself a NEW agreement, therefore the Deposit needs re-protecting, copy of the Deposit certificate, prescribed information, and a copy of the EPC, annual gas safety certificate, electrical safety report and HMG's How to Rent leaflet. With the exception of the electrical report, I submit the documents both by email and hard paper copies, the former providing proof of receipt, thereby avoiding any possible future arguments.
That’s not correct.Worth pointing out that a statutory periodic tenancy agreement, is in itself a NEW agreement, therefore the Deposit needs re-protecting, copy of the Deposit certificate, prescribed information, and a copy of the EPC, annual gas safety certificate, electrical safety report and HMG's How to Rent leaflet. With the exception of the electrical report, I submit the documents both by email and hard paper copies, the former providing proof of receipt, thereby avoiding any possible future arguments.
Since 2015 you don’t need to do most of that when going from a fixed to a periodic AST.
I tend to follow this guy for a lot of info, and have found it to be pretty much spot on.
https://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/r...
Ham_and_Jam said:
That’s not correct.
Since 2015 you don’t need to do most of that when going from a fixed to a periodic AST.
I tend to follow this guy for a lot of info, and have found it to be pretty much spot on.
https://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/r...
Firstly, there are two (2) types of Periodic Tenancy, one being a Contractual Periodic Tenancy, the same that is usually written into the original Shorthold Tenancy Agreement, the other being a Statutory Periodic Tenancy that is not referred to Shorthold Tenancy Agreement.Since 2015 you don’t need to do most of that when going from a fixed to a periodic AST.
I tend to follow this guy for a lot of info, and have found it to be pretty much spot on.
https://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/r...
When a Statutory Periodic Tenancy arises, it is important that from October 2018 the Deregulation Act, the point that a Statutory Periodic Tenancy starts, then it is a brand new tenancy, that is separate from the original term. This being extremely important for Deposit Protection, council tax AND for the service of documents. In the case of the former, the deposit protection legislation (ss212 to 215 Housing Act 2004, as amended by the Localism Act 2011). At the end of the original tenancy fixed term agreement, the LL/agent is deemed notionally to have returned the Deposit monies to the tenant/s, and then to have re-received the monies from the tenant/s. When the LL/agent should re-protect the Deposit under the Statutory Periodic Tenancy.
There are cases in law, when a LL/agent has failed to re-protect the Deposit monies, and to have failed to supply the tenant/s with relevant documentation, then the courts have found the Section 21 Notice invalid.
https://www.nrla.org.uk/resources/creating-your-te...
Wings said:
irstly, there are two (2) types of Periodic Tenancy, one being a Contractual Periodic Tenancy, the same that is usually written into the original Shorthold Tenancy Agreement, the other being a Statutory Periodic Tenancy that is not referred to Shorthold Tenancy Agreement.
When a Statutory Periodic Tenancy arises, it is important that from October 2018 the Deregulation Act, the point that a Statutory Periodic Tenancy starts, then it is a brand new tenancy, that is separate from the original term. This being extremely important for Deposit Protection, council tax AND for the service of documents. In the case of the former, the deposit protection legislation (ss212 to 215 Housing Act 2004, as amended by the Localism Act 2011). At the end of the original tenancy fixed term agreement, the LL/agent is deemed notionally to have returned the Deposit monies to the tenant/s, and then to have re-received the monies from the tenant/s. When the LL/agent should re-protect the Deposit under the Statutory Periodic Tenancy.
There are cases in law, when a LL/agent has failed to re-protect the Deposit monies, and to have failed to supply the tenant/s with relevant documentation, then the courts have found the Section 21 Notice invalid.
https://www.nrla.org.uk/resources/creating-your-te...
I well written AST should preclude what you have suggested.When a Statutory Periodic Tenancy arises, it is important that from October 2018 the Deregulation Act, the point that a Statutory Periodic Tenancy starts, then it is a brand new tenancy, that is separate from the original term. This being extremely important for Deposit Protection, council tax AND for the service of documents. In the case of the former, the deposit protection legislation (ss212 to 215 Housing Act 2004, as amended by the Localism Act 2011). At the end of the original tenancy fixed term agreement, the LL/agent is deemed notionally to have returned the Deposit monies to the tenant/s, and then to have re-received the monies from the tenant/s. When the LL/agent should re-protect the Deposit under the Statutory Periodic Tenancy.
There are cases in law, when a LL/agent has failed to re-protect the Deposit monies, and to have failed to supply the tenant/s with relevant documentation, then the courts have found the Section 21 Notice invalid.
https://www.nrla.org.uk/resources/creating-your-te...
Ham_and_Jam said:
I well written AST should preclude what you have suggested.
Yes it should, but I repeat, to avoid any arguments when attending a repossession court hearing, I would advise that at the start of any type of tenancy and periodic tenancy agreement, all documents that I have previously listed, should be submitted to tenant/s.Due to Covid-19, there is presently a political climate of anti eviction, with present anti eviction activists Generation Rent and some local council authorities etc. etc. advising tenants to check the paperwork received from their landlord, and to use the slightest documentation error by the landlord/agent to avoid eviction.
According to a recent poll by Generation Rent just 23 per cent remember receiving a government How to Rent guide at the start of their tenancy.
The group states that “many landlords are failing to comply” on other documentation, specifically:
- 36 per cent of renters remember receiving an Energy Performance Certificate;
- 44 per cent remember receiving a gas safety certificate;
- 47 per cent remember receiving information about where their deposit is protected.
Baroness Alicia Kennedy, director of Generation Rent, says: “Renting is so complicated, it’s easy for tenants to get mistreated by landlords and letting agents who may have no interest in having well-informed customers.
For the sake of a few sheets of printed A4 paperwork, I would rather triplicate the above documents, rather than arguing in court with an uninformed District Judge.
Wings said:
Ham_and_Jam said:
That’s not correct.
Since 2015 you don’t need to do most of that when going from a fixed to a periodic AST.
I tend to follow this guy for a lot of info, and have found it to be pretty much spot on.
https://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/r...
Firstly, there are two (2) types of Periodic Tenancy, one being a Contractual Periodic Tenancy, the same that is usually written into the original Shorthold Tenancy Agreement, the other being a Statutory Periodic Tenancy that is not referred to Shorthold Tenancy Agreement.Since 2015 you don’t need to do most of that when going from a fixed to a periodic AST.
I tend to follow this guy for a lot of info, and have found it to be pretty much spot on.
https://www.propertyinvestmentproject.co.uk/blog/r...
When a Statutory Periodic Tenancy arises, it is important that from October 2018 the Deregulation Act, the point that a Statutory Periodic Tenancy starts, then it is a brand new tenancy, that is separate from the original term. This being extremely important for Deposit Protection, council tax AND for the service of documents. In the case of the former, the deposit protection legislation (ss212 to 215 Housing Act 2004, as amended by the Localism Act 2011). At the end of the original tenancy fixed term agreement, the LL/agent is deemed notionally to have returned the Deposit monies to the tenant/s, and then to have re-received the monies from the tenant/s. When the LL/agent should re-protect the Deposit under the Statutory Periodic Tenancy.
There are cases in law, when a LL/agent has failed to re-protect the Deposit monies, and to have failed to supply the tenant/s with relevant documentation, then the courts have found the Section 21 Notice invalid.
https://www.nrla.org.uk/resources/creating-your-te...
There is no requirement to re-register the deposit IF it was originally registered correctly. There is no case law on what you purport. The other docs - yes re-issue to be safe but if the deposit was originally registered correctly then on roll on of either type makes no difference for the deposit registration.
Edited by superlightr on Saturday 12th June 01:03
Edited by superlightr on Saturday 12th June 01:05
It is a requirement of Mydeposits, that where the fixed term of an Assured Shorthold Tenancy comes to an end, and the tenancy rolls over into a Statutory Periodic Tenancy. Then a new Tenancy Deposit Certificate is issued under a Statutory Periodic Tenancy.
Since a Statutory Periodic Tenancy is a NEW tenancy agreement, I do not see what point you are making.
Since a Statutory Periodic Tenancy is a NEW tenancy agreement, I do not see what point you are making.
Wings said:
It is a requirement of Mydeposits, that where the fixed term of an Assured Shorthold Tenancy comes to an end, and the tenancy rolls over into a Statutory Periodic Tenancy. Then a new Tenancy Deposit Certificate is issued under a Statutory Periodic Tenancy.
Since a Statutory Periodic Tenancy is a NEW tenancy agreement, I do not see what point you are making.
I have deposits held with mydeposits and DPS, and you don’t have to re-register or issue a new certificate. The reason being it’s not required. You just have to inform them of the AST changing to a periodic tenancy.Since a Statutory Periodic Tenancy is a NEW tenancy agreement, I do not see what point you are making.
Taken directly from mydeposits website-
https://www.mydeposits.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/20...
Edited by Ham_and_Jam on Saturday 12th June 21:04
Wings said:
It is a requirement of Mydeposits, that where the fixed term of an Assured Shorthold Tenancy comes to an end, and the tenancy rolls over into a Statutory Periodic Tenancy. Then a new Tenancy Deposit Certificate is issued under a Statutory Periodic Tenancy.
Since a Statutory Periodic Tenancy is a NEW tenancy agreement, I do not see what point you are making.
You do not have to re-register the deposit if it was originally registered correctly. - I cant say it clearer than that.Since a Statutory Periodic Tenancy is a NEW tenancy agreement, I do not see what point you are making.
Where are those case laws you mentioned or any where that says you must re-register?
Look - the laws and regs for letting are changing all the time and can be hard to understand and filter - As a letting agent we see this all the time - well meaning DIY landlords are simply not compliant with many aspects of the laws and regs and end up getting fined and get the paperwork wrong. Its getting more complex each year.
I see it weekly with DIY landlords and we try and rescue their screw ups when they approach us to take on their property as they THINK they know it but in practice dont and have been fined or gotten themselves into a right mess.
Edited by superlightr on Saturday 12th June 22:38
Ham_and_Jam said:
I have deposits held with mydeposits and DPS, and you don’t have to re-register or issue a new certificate. The reason being it’s not required. You just have to inform them of the AST changing to a periodic tenancy.
Taken directly from mydeposits website-
https://www.mydeposits.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/20...
^^^^^^Agree, and thank you, and at that point I supply the tenant/s a copy of the change in the status of the Deposit Protection Certificate.Taken directly from mydeposits website-
https://www.mydeposits.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/20...
Edited by Ham_and_Jam on Saturday 12th June 21:04
superlightr said:
You do not have to re-register the deposit if it was originally registered correctly. - I cant say it clearer than that.
Look - the laws and regs for letting are changing all the time and can be hard to understand and filter - As a letting agent we see this all the time - well meaning DIY landlords are simply not compliant with many aspects of the laws and regs and end up getting fined and get the paperwork wrong. Its getting more complex each year.
The key point for you to understand superlightr, is that a statutory periodic tenancy is a brand new tenancy, that is separate from the original fixed term. This is very important for council tax, deposits and the service of ALL stated documents. With Mydeposits the status of the Deposit Protection Certificate (hereafter DPC) will change from the Fixed Term to a Statutory Periodic Tenancy, and at that time my tenant/s will be sent a copy of the new DPC, together will ALL other stated documents.Look - the laws and regs for letting are changing all the time and can be hard to understand and filter - As a letting agent we see this all the time - well meaning DIY landlords are simply not compliant with many aspects of the laws and regs and end up getting fined and get the paperwork wrong. Its getting more complex each year.
Edited by superlightr on Saturday 12th June 22:38
Wings said:
No need for a knew tenancy agreement, if there is still time on the present agreement, then simply issue the tenants with a months notice (section 13(2) form) of the rent increase. Then simply allow their present tenancy agreement to roll over into a monthly statutory periodic tenancy agreement.
Worth pointing out that a statutory periodic tenancy agreement, is in itself a NEW agreement, therefore the Deposit needs re-protecting, copy of the Deposit certificate, prescribed information, and a copy of the EPC, annual gas safety certificate, electrical safety report and HMG's How to Rent leaflet. With the exception of the electrical report, I submit the documents both by email and hard paper copies, the former providing proof of receipt, thereby avoiding any possible future arguments.
Worth pointing out that a statutory periodic tenancy agreement, is in itself a NEW agreement, therefore the Deposit needs re-protecting, copy of the Deposit certificate, prescribed information, and a copy of the EPC, annual gas safety certificate, electrical safety report and HMG's How to Rent leaflet. With the exception of the electrical report, I submit the documents both by email and hard paper copies, the former providing proof of receipt, thereby avoiding any possible future arguments.
Wings said:
superlightr said:
You do not have to re-register the deposit if it was originally registered correctly. - I cant say it clearer than that.
Look - the laws and regs for letting are changing all the time and can be hard to understand and filter - As a letting agent we see this all the time - well meaning DIY landlords are simply not compliant with many aspects of the laws and regs and end up getting fined and get the paperwork wrong. Its getting more complex each year.
The key point for you to understand superlightr, is that a statutory periodic tenancy is a brand new tenancy, that is separate from the original fixed term. This is very important for council tax, deposits and the service of ALL stated documents. With Mydeposits the status of the Deposit Protection Certificate (hereafter DPC) will change from the Fixed Term to a Statutory Periodic Tenancy, and at that time my tenant/s will be sent a copy of the new DPC, together will ALL other stated documents.Look - the laws and regs for letting are changing all the time and can be hard to understand and filter - As a letting agent we see this all the time - well meaning DIY landlords are simply not compliant with many aspects of the laws and regs and end up getting fined and get the paperwork wrong. Its getting more complex each year.
Edited by superlightr on Saturday 12th June 22:38
Anyway I hope you are clear on that now. Suggest you may want to use a professional Letting Agent to assist you with your lettings and not to misunderstand other aspects. The councils are getting hotter on issuing fines for non-compliance.
Edited by superlightr on Monday 14th June 07:49
[quote=superlightr]
The Key point Wings is that you do NOT need to re-protect or re-register. Also there is no case law to say otherwise.
Anyway I hope you are clear on that now. Suggest you may want to use a professional Letting Agent to assist you with your lettings and not to misunderstand other aspects. The councils are getting hotter on issuing fines for non-compliance.
It appears that you fail to understand xxxx, that at the end of the "fixed" term tenancy (AST) agreement, a statutory periodic tenancy (SPT) becomes a BRAND NEW tenancy under the 1988 Housing Act. Both therefore being (**) TWO contracts/agreements.
The 1988 Housing Act makes it clear that at the end fixed period tenancy ** (AST) , there is either a creation of a new and distinct statutory tenancy (SPT), rather than, for example, the CONTINUATION of the tenant's previous status.
Where the AST rolls over into a SPT, then the latter is dealt with in the same way as if a NEW AST tenancy agreement was being entered into, that is the Deposit is protected re-registered/re-protected under the status of the NEW tenancy agreement.
The roll over into a SPT, does not always require the physical handover of the Deposit monies, LL/agent to tenant/s, then tenant/s to LL/agent, hence why Mydeposits will simply on the request of LL/agent amend the registration status of the Deposit Certificate.
The Key point Wings is that you do NOT need to re-protect or re-register. Also there is no case law to say otherwise.
Anyway I hope you are clear on that now. Suggest you may want to use a professional Letting Agent to assist you with your lettings and not to misunderstand other aspects. The councils are getting hotter on issuing fines for non-compliance.
It appears that you fail to understand xxxx, that at the end of the "fixed" term tenancy (AST) agreement, a statutory periodic tenancy (SPT) becomes a BRAND NEW tenancy under the 1988 Housing Act. Both therefore being (**) TWO contracts/agreements.
The 1988 Housing Act makes it clear that at the end fixed period tenancy ** (AST) , there is either a creation of a new and distinct statutory tenancy (SPT), rather than, for example, the CONTINUATION of the tenant's previous status.
Where the AST rolls over into a SPT, then the latter is dealt with in the same way as if a NEW AST tenancy agreement was being entered into, that is the Deposit is protected re-registered/re-protected under the status of the NEW tenancy agreement.
The roll over into a SPT, does not always require the physical handover of the Deposit monies, LL/agent to tenant/s, then tenant/s to LL/agent, hence why Mydeposits will simply on the request of LL/agent amend the registration status of the Deposit Certificate.
- Where a tenant/s pays monthly rental payments, and where a LL/agent fails to protect the Deposit monies under both the AST agreement and SPT agreement, then a tenant/s could make a claim to their local magistrates, for compensation against the LL of six (6) times the tenant/s monthly rental payment.
- The LL and/or the agent should act no differently when the fixed term comes to an end, than if the tenancy was either not rolling over to an SPT, and or the AST was being renewed by a new AST.
Wings -Are you being deliberately stupid?
Your discussing another part of a roll on (periodic) law now.
You originally said the deposit has to be re-protected on roll on & there is case law to prove this. I said no it does not and there is no case law as you purport- you are mistaken.
You then whittle and deflect on about another aspect of roll on law which is entirely separate to what you originally purported about re-protection of the deposit.
Be funny as to how you think you have "re-protected" an existing deposit? bet you screwed that up . anyway whatever I really have lost all interest now.
You are exactly why many DIY landlords should be regulated and not do their own lettings. A little knowledge of the law is worse then none at all.
discuss this at length with your mirror if you like.
Your discussing another part of a roll on (periodic) law now.
You originally said the deposit has to be re-protected on roll on & there is case law to prove this. I said no it does not and there is no case law as you purport- you are mistaken.
You then whittle and deflect on about another aspect of roll on law which is entirely separate to what you originally purported about re-protection of the deposit.
Be funny as to how you think you have "re-protected" an existing deposit? bet you screwed that up . anyway whatever I really have lost all interest now.
You are exactly why many DIY landlords should be regulated and not do their own lettings. A little knowledge of the law is worse then none at all.
discuss this at length with your mirror if you like.
Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 15th June 22:14
Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 15th June 22:16
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