RE: Lotus previews new Emira interior
Discussion
Northernboy said:
dandare said:
Maybe automatics are for slower brains, and manuals for faster ones? It sort of levels the playing field. Communism in cars.
I've always been disappointed by autos. They rarely do what I want. One simply has more control with a manual, even if it might be slightly slower. Way more satisfying.
What a strange insult to lob in, it makes no sense at all.I've always been disappointed by autos. They rarely do what I want. One simply has more control with a manual, even if it might be slightly slower. Way more satisfying.
I'm sorry if I touched a nerve.
otolith said:
That will be hilarious, that they consider the four pot peasant engine the more desirable choice because of the badge it won't actually have on it 
I think if you want to attract the regular Porsche buyer, what would you rather have, a de-badged Merc unit or a toyota/volvo/polestar unit? Das gud ya!bcr5784 said:
The 2L AMG engine can put out nearly as much power (and would be much lighter)
I believe that the 2.0 AMG and the Toyota 3.5 V6 are both about 160kg dry. I'm not sure that includes the supercharger and intercooler on the Lotus version, but I suspect that if you compare the manual V6 with the (DSG only) 2.0, "much lighter" would be overegging it.DonkeyApple said:
They've also never tried selling products to the larger number of car buyers who prefer auto but just been sticking to the tiny number of blokes on the planet who want a manual gearbox attached to a cheap engine, wrapped in a cheap looking shell. At a cheap price.
I'm being very harsh but for Lotus to survive they need to deliver products that more people want and it is extremely clear to see that almost no one wants a manual gearbox so there is absolutely no point in offering it. Especially as they know that their new price points will be leaving their old customers behind. These are fundamentally new products for new customers whether we like it or not.
I'm normally with you on these things, but in this case I'm not sure you've not got things reversed.I'm being very harsh but for Lotus to survive they need to deliver products that more people want and it is extremely clear to see that almost no one wants a manual gearbox so there is absolutely no point in offering it. Especially as they know that their new price points will be leaving their old customers behind. These are fundamentally new products for new customers whether we like it or not.
That Lotus makes manual cars and do not sell many does not (necessarily) mean they don't sell many because they are manual. As others have pointed out, they have auto options on their current models, and those are not heavily subscribed as far as I can tell.
Certainly, they can't afford not to provide a properly credible auto option in today's market. However, I don't see any evidence that having a manual option would hurt sales, and it would surely appeal to some of the (ahem) 'core' demographic who will complain mightily if the Emira isn't "Lotusey" enough.
Hell, people buy other premium brands because they "could" have the hardcore race version but don't, so there's no reason a manual, stripped down option couldn't be a "halo" choice on the Emira line-up.
AndyGT430 said:
otolith said:
That will be hilarious, that they consider the four pot peasant engine the more desirable choice because of the badge it won't actually have on it
I think if you want to attract the regular Porsche buyer, what would you rather have, a de-badged Merc unit or a toyota/volvo/polestar unit? Das gud ya!otolith said:
AndyGT430 said:
otolith said:
That will be hilarious, that they consider the four pot peasant engine the more desirable choice because of the badge it won't actually have on it
I think if you want to attract the regular Porsche buyer, what would you rather have, a de-badged Merc unit or a toyota/volvo/polestar unit? Das gud ya!bcr5784 said:
DonkeyApple said:
The 2L AMG engine would probably be quite superb in something like this. And have the right badge/image for the customers they're targeting.
Wouldn't they also seek to use the EQ hybrid system if there's enough space also?
Will they persist with the V6 as it didn't really fit in the Evora so why compromise again especially as downsizing and turbos are de riguer today?
I think Lotus are in a bit of a bind with the V6. The 2L AMG engine can put out nearly as much power (and would be much lighter) - but will the market accept 85k for a 4 pot going against the 911. And, unless they can up the power of the v6, Porsche will always be able to turn up the wick on the 911 to be signicantly quicker. Wouldn't they also seek to use the EQ hybrid system if there's enough space also?
Will they persist with the V6 as it didn't really fit in the Evora so why compromise again especially as downsizing and turbos are de riguer today?
What Lotus need to do is leave the benchmarking against Porsches to the other generic mass manufacturers such as Audi etc it makes more sense to return to being a half price Ferrari/McLaren rather than a same price as one's accountant's or estate agent's commuter car. Nothing against Porsche but they are a default, every day, mass produced sports car as opposed to being anything particularly head turning or special which means they're really a different segment in the most part to something like Lotus.
Tuna said:
Neither. The regular Porsche buyer is wondering if EV's are cool yet, and where they can go on holiday next. The provenance of the engine in a Lotus is of absolutely zero interest to them whatsoever.
Well yes, but the job Geely have committed Lotus to is to change that. No-one said it could be done overnight with a single model, but they have to start somewhere. Personally I still think producing another internal combustion powered model at all was daft.
otolith said:
I think the focus of the Emira suggests that the mass market sportscar is exactly where they are going.
They are aiming the Emira squarely at the 718, power, auto, manual, model variation and price point. I think Lotus will win on looks, the Jury is out on the rest - still hasn't stopped me ordering one!kambites said:
Well yes, but the job Geely have committed Lotus to is to change that. No-one said it could be done overnight with a single model, but they have to start somewhere.
Personally I still think producing another internal combustion powered model at all was daft.
If they had gone straight to EV for the Emira I wouldn't have ordered one, they have hooked me in and if all goes well, I will certainly look at the EV model when it arrives in the next couple of years.Personally I still think producing another internal combustion powered model at all was daft.
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. I don't see the V6 serving any market purpose. Maybe greater performance will stem from batteries instead?
What Lotus need to do is leave the benchmarking against Porsches to the other generic mass manufacturers such as Audi etc it makes more sense to return to being a half price Ferrari/McLaren rather than a same price as one's accountant's or estate agent's commuter car. Nothing against Porsche but they are a default, every day, mass produced sports car as opposed to being anything particularly head turning or special which means they're really a different segment in the most part to something like Lotus.
Agreed on this. The Esprit was compared to the Ferrari of the time, and if their engineering is nearly as good as we'd like to believe McLaren should be firmly in their sights. But being a half price Ferrari puts you firmly in the same bracket as the 911 from a budget point of view, so you've got to offer something exceptional to mark you out as being different from the "safe choice".What Lotus need to do is leave the benchmarking against Porsches to the other generic mass manufacturers such as Audi etc it makes more sense to return to being a half price Ferrari/McLaren rather than a same price as one's accountant's or estate agent's commuter car. Nothing against Porsche but they are a default, every day, mass produced sports car as opposed to being anything particularly head turning or special which means they're really a different segment in the most part to something like Lotus.
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
The 2L AMG engine would probably be quite superb in something like this. And have the right badge/image for the customers they're targeting.
That will be hilarious, that they consider the four pot peasant engine the more desirable choice because of the badge it won't actually have on it No apex consumer considers the quality of the goods but what the badge says. Hence why brands have never been more important and never has so much money been invested in promoting the 'ethos' of the brand while the quality is stripped away as no one ultimately cares about those things.
No one cares what's inside a Rolex. What matters is that it can been seen to be a Rolex at a distance and that the viewer has heard the message about Rolex from Rolex. It's why they've never needed to get them to keep time properly.
A Toyota product is what the bloke who lives in a shed at the end of a garden near Heathrow collects you in when you e finished drinking. A Mercedes is what you select to arrive in when others are looking.
It's the ghastly, vulgar and base world of the new money consumer. It's what Lotus has comprehensively failed to target for over two decades and exactly why they've sold bigger all cars and are a once great brand looked down upon by all consumers as being for blokes with no money, no women and no charisma. It's why we love them as driver's cars.
kambites said:
Well yes, but the job Geely have committed Lotus to is to change that. No-one said it could be done overnight with a single model, but they have to start somewhere.
Personally I still think producing another internal combustion powered model at all was daft.
I know where you’re coming from, but early sporty ev adopters are going straight to Taycan. I can see the logic in a Geely-backed push to relaunch the brand with ice. I haven’t driven one, but reviews aren’t describing Taycans as ‘for the driver’Personally I still think producing another internal combustion powered model at all was daft.
A 5 year plan for Lotus was always going to be different to an existing player. Straight to ev runs the risk of being underwhelming and unable to focus on their dynamic strengths.
Tuna said:
firmly in the same bracket as the 911 from a budget point of view, so you've got to offer something exceptional to mark you out as being different from the "safe choice".
True. But plenty of cars have the same price but are pointed at different user demographics. Maybe Lotus need a new tagli e to ensure people don't think it's some kind of Porsche alternative? Maybe something like: 'Your mum wouldn't buy one.' 'Grandpa isn't comfortable in a Lotus.' Or 'Don't stretch yourself financially just for the neighbours.'
GTRene said:
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