RE: Lotus previews new Emira interior

RE: Lotus previews new Emira interior

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Discussion

otolith

44,517 posts

170 months

Thursday
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bcr5784 said:
The kindest thing I can say about the Volvo SUV equivalent is that it is nice inside. But it's of no interest whatsoever to anyone with even the slightest concern about driving. Lotus would have to do VASTLY better.
Why would you buy an SUV if you care about driving?

The point of sports car companies selling SUVs is the image.

bcr5784

5,586 posts

111 months

Thursday
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otolith said:
Why would you buy an SUV if you care about driving?

The point of sports car companies selling SUVs is the image.
True - but at least the Macan is vaguely competent dynamically (for an SUV).

evotion

10 posts

216 months

Thursday
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Great reading.

Nice to see that the level of enthusiasm and positivity had perked up a lot.

I guess the one thing we can all agree on is that we really, really want Lotus to smash it out of the part and become a 'UK' (cough) brand that we can be proud of again.

I too believe it is a marketing play and it comes down to making the Emira truly aspirational and giving it a 'must have' image.

Lastly, I have a feeling I know @donkeyapple - his posts have all made sense and resonate with me. I suspect he is in marketing like me, or a business owner.

I placed my deposits down as I just feel something in the air. Not owned a Lotus before but something about the way this panned out, and is continuing to pan out, gives me a sense of something... special and right up my strasse.

I have a suspicion that people will be going crazy when the car is revealed in just under a month's time.
Get your deposits in now. smile

florian

181 posts

240 months

Thursday
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I think the strategic view of Geely is quite simple actually:

- Focus on electric SUV to compete with Porsche Macan and Cayenne
- Launch ICE sports car to compete with Porsche Boxster, Cayman and 911 and to keep some degree of credibility as a sports car manufacturer
- Make maximum use of synergies by using the Geely/Lynk/Volvo parts bin and infrastructure such as purchasing, testing etc.

It's of course very sad to see the Elise and Exige go. But in the end that's just a too small niche market and will get even smaller in the future with all the world wide regulations. And regarding the Evora: In my opinion it was the 2+2 packaging that really didn't do the design any favour. The looks were not as good as Esprit in my book.

DonkeyApple

41,004 posts

135 months

Thursday
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otolith said:
Why would you buy an SUV if you care about driving?

The point of sports car companies selling SUVs is the image.
I don't think that's fair when at a particular end of the SUV market. Sure for most it's just about a wagon that's more practical than an estate car or hatchback but there are plenty of 'drivers' who opt for SUVs in their fleet. The BRDC car park is full of SUVs that steer well, go well while allowing for family duties, mile munching and traffic jam enjoying.

I enjoy driving and will specifically opt for a 50 year old Range Rover on many occasions over the sports car because it's great fun to drive. It requires a different attitude to hustle along. It's slow, it rolls but it's a hoot.

The Macan Turbo or Cayenne is as fast as anything else on the road and it will transport kids, the wife and a dog or MiL in the boot.

I think there is very much demand for SUVs with the Lotus ethos because not everyone who needs a family car wants to have a turgid diesel van or worse, an MPV. biggrin

The biggest problem for blokes in their 40s who enjoy driving is that there is rarely any free time to go driving for pleasure as work and family are at their peak draw on time. The money is there for a silly car but the lifestyle logistics dictate that fun has to be seized where it can, when an opportunity randomly presents itself and that it tends to be a case of needing one car that's capable of ferry family at the weekends, sitting in traffic jams during the week but when the rare opportunity appears, being fun to drive.

This is the huge upside of the performance SUV. PH loves to stick it to SUVs because seemingly everyone appears to live on a 2 up 2 down estate of identikit homes, with everyone having the same low income levels and apparently everyone with an SUV is being a billy big balls on finance but in the real world they're great cars and hot SUVs are fun to hustle like hot hatches or hot estates. And with hot SUVs posting better Ring times than the much fawned over fast estate it's clear that they steer remarkably well for the size.

There's a reason why so many sports cars are in the hands of pensioners and it's not just due to finances and there are going to be you get people who desire a Lotus product but need it to be in a practical form.

Besides, 'adding lightness' would be rather easy in the SUV sector. Not that Lotus has done that gig for the last twenty years but they could give it a go again. biggrin

otolith

44,517 posts

170 months

Thursday
quotequote all
bcr5784 said:
otolith said:
Why would you buy an SUV if you care about driving?

The point of sports car companies selling SUVs is the image.
True - but at least the Macan is vaguely competent dynamically (for an SUV).
I should think that anything Porsche can do to a MacPherson front / multilink rear VW platform, Lotus should be able to do to a MacPherson front / multilink rear Geely group platform?

otolith

44,517 posts

170 months

Thursday
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
The BRDC car park is full of SUVs that steer well, go well while allowing for family duties, mile munching and traffic jam enjoying.
Yeah, but racing drivers are well known for the attitude that road cars are all slow and boring and should be comfortable A-B transport - more often than not if they are driving something flash it's for the benefit of the sponsor.

DonkeyApple said:
The Macan Turbo or Cayenne is as fast as anything else on the road and it will transport kids, the wife and a dog or MiL in the boot.
For sure. Which just shows that for road use, adding lightness is largely irrelevant. A 2500kg Model X will show pretty much anything a clean pair of heels on the road, and won't be any slower through the corners because you aren't limited by handling but by how far you can see.

DonkeyApple said:
Besides, 'adding lightness' would be rather easy in the SUV sector. Not that Lotus has done that gig for the last twenty years but they could give it a go again. biggrin
It is easy. First, you lose the 4wd. Then you make it car sized, get rid of the ridiculously oversized wheels and tyres...

If you still want it to be an SUV, I'm not sure that there is much weight to be lost. Not unless you want to give it an interior like an Elise, which in reality nobody wants in an SUV. Or replace a lot of the panels with composites I suppose, but that probably won't give the solidity and "quality" people look for in products like this.

In reality, I think all you have to do is take a Geely group SUV, make it look like a Lotus and tune the handling.

Tuna

18,167 posts

250 months

Thursday
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DonkeyApple said:
I'm not sure they necessarily need to be 'stealing sales' as many sports cars are second cars bought on a whim because the product manages to tickle the fancy of someone with money but no previous desire for another product.

They aren't going steal sales from Ferrari and the like because if you have the money for one of those then that is what you're going to buy but if you only have half the money and desire something like that then the Lotus, in theory, would be creating a sale out of thin air.

I can't see them taking sales from Porsche. It's a brand that seems to have two core types of enthusiast, the image enthusiast and the genuine brand enthusiast. Neither would seemingly opt for a Lotus for the same money.

Arguably, they would get back lost sales from not having a desirable, aspirational product for decades. And hopefully they will move themselves onto the radar of general sports at buyers who are typically fairly agnostic on brand.
Surely similar conversations were had when McLaren announced they would be back in the sports car game?

otolith

44,517 posts

170 months

Thursday
quotequote all
(Interestingly, Lotus Engineering have already calculated how to cut up to 30% out of a 2010 SUV, but it doesn't look like something you can just sprinkle on - it's a matter of changing the materials for more high strength steel, aluminium and composites, changing the construction and design ethos, downsizing the ICE, etc. So much of it not something you can do to a generic SUV)

https://www.worldautosteel.org/life-cycle-thinking...


Edited by otolith on Thursday 10th June 17:12

bcr5784

5,586 posts

111 months

Thursday
quotequote all
otolith said:
(Interestingly, Lotus Engineering have already calculated how to cut up to 30% out of a 2010 SUV, but it doesn't look like something you can just sprinkle on - it's a matter of changing the materials for more high strength steel, aluminium and composites, changing the construction and design ethos, downsizing the ICE, etc. So much of it not something you can do to a generic SUV)

https://www.worldautosteel.org/life-cycle-thinking...


Edited by otolith on Thursday 10th June 17:12
The car was actually a crossover. Better chance of making a crossover handle well rather than a true SUV. You could even have a "sport" mode which lowered the suspension.... I might even consider buying one then.

Olivera

4,556 posts

205 months

Thursday
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DonkeyApple said:
I think there is very much demand for SUVs with the Lotus ethos because not everyone who needs a family car wants to have a turgid diesel van or worse, an MPV. biggrin
There's barely enough demand for Lotus full stop, never mind a Lotus ethos SUV. No buyer gives a st about a lightweight SUV. The Lamborghini Urus has been an enormous sales success despite weighing 2.2 tonnes and being a VAG parts bin.

Edited by Olivera on Thursday 10th June 17:34

spagbogdog

764 posts

226 months

Thursday
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Lotobear said:
...coming from a TVR driver this, and some of your other posts on this thread, come across as more than a little ironic!!
Ahh but ya missed the other interesting machinery..rolleyes .. clearly your rear view mirror’s dropped off (again) wobble

kambites

61,488 posts

187 months

Thursday
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delta0 said:
I mean same model, same year, everything the same but they have something different like a different rear view mirror.
Yes, so do I with regard to the VAG stuff. I've seen two Octavia mk2 VRSs with serial numbers only a few hundred apart with different brands of air conditioning compressor. It's just the way car manufacture works, changing parts at a random point in the middle of a production run is perfectly normal.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 10th June 18:28

bcr5784

5,586 posts

111 months

Thursday
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
I don't think that's fair when at a particular end of the SUV market. Sure for most it's just about a wagon that's more practical than an estate car or hatchback but there are plenty of 'drivers' who opt for SUVs in their fleet. The BRDC car park is full of SUVs that steer well, go well while allowing for family duties, mile munching and traffic jam enjoying.


I think there is very much demand for SUVs with the Lotus ethos because not everyone who needs a family car wants to have a turgid diesel van or worse, an MPV. biggrin
I'm frankly at a loss to understand why someone would consider an MPV less sexy than an SUV. Why does a jacked up suspension, 4wd which the vast majority of owners don't use, an ugly pedestrian hostile nose, and frankly silly plastic wheel arches, make it more sexy. I frankly can't think of anything less sexy than an SUV. Girls in Doc Martins spring to mind -SUGs.


Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 10th June 19:23

Sporky

1,592 posts

30 months

Thursday
quotequote all
bcr5784 said:
Girls in Doc Martins spring to mind -SUGs.
Summer dress and DMs? I should cocoa. Just add an army shirt.

Lotobear

3,114 posts

94 months

Thursday
quotequote all
spagbogdog said:
Ahh but ya missed the other interesting machinery..rolleyes .. clearly your rear view mirror’s dropped off (again) wobble
....I looked but must have missed them again!


spagbogdog

764 posts

226 months

Thursday
quotequote all
Lotobear said:
....I looked but must have missed them again!
Clue:


Not my photo.(it’s a very well known one from a presenter ending his dream~ride and driving home in his dream~car). No doubt the Alfa is very cool indeed..but you really won’t see anyone taking their bikes home like that. Too impractical. This is where an SUV is simply way better.

Preferably an F~Pace SVR…and just maybe in a coupla years a Lotus…….

DonkeyApple

41,004 posts

135 months

Tuna said:
DonkeyApple said:
I'm not sure they necessarily need to be 'stealing sales' as many sports cars are second cars bought on a whim because the product manages to tickle the fancy of someone with money but no previous desire for another product.

They aren't going steal sales from Ferrari and the like because if you have the money for one of those then that is what you're going to buy but if you only have half the money and desire something like that then the Lotus, in theory, would be creating a sale out of thin air.

I can't see them taking sales from Porsche. It's a brand that seems to have two core types of enthusiast, the image enthusiast and the genuine brand enthusiast. Neither would seemingly opt for a Lotus for the same money.

Arguably, they would get back lost sales from not having a desirable, aspirational product for decades. And hopefully they will move themselves onto the radar of general sports at buyers who are typically fairly agnostic on brand.
Surely similar conversations were had when McLaren announced they would be back in the sports car game?
I don't know, I see McLaren as just dropping their cars directly onto the same stage as Ferrari. Doing the same thing for the same price but because firms like Ferrari restrict volumes in order to maintain price premiums there were customers going un services every year. Ferrari could probably sell double the number of sports cars that they do but their value is reliant on them restricting sales so they are leaving gaps in their space for others.

Lotus, arguably, has a different space altogether which is as a Ferrari type product but for half the price. The key is to ensure that the product actually looks like a Ferrari type product that only costs £100k and not a dumpy sort of 911 type thing that looks £50k but costs £100k.

In my mind it's all about the looks. If it looks sleek and expensive like a Ferrari or McLaren then it'll sell, if it doesn't then it'll be another Evora, a fine drivers car that no one on the planet wants.

For me, I'd just love a super car that has high profile tyres and little 16" wheels. But I'm weird and scarred by never being able to fit in an Esprit. biggrin

DonkeyApple

41,004 posts

135 months

bcr5784 said:
The car was actually a crossover. Better chance of making a crossover handle well rather than a true SUV. You could even have a "sport" mode which lowered the suspension.... I might even consider buying one then.
I think the 'SUV' today is what a crossover was. SUVs have been getting lower and lower and I think if you looked at today's Cayenne with eyes from 10 years ago you would be wrong to label it a crossover rather than an SUV. I think SUVs have been steadily moving away from those original faux 4x4 marketing credentials. Most performance SUVs move along at the height of a crossover and when stationary will pump up to look like an SUV.

DonkeyApple

41,004 posts

135 months

Olivera said:
DonkeyApple said:
I think there is very much demand for SUVs with the Lotus ethos because not everyone who needs a family car wants to have a turgid diesel van or worse, an MPV. biggrin
There's barely enough demand for Lotus full stop, never mind a Lotus ethos SUV. No buyer gives a st about a lightweight SUV. The Lamborghini Urus has been an enormous sales success despite weighing 2.2 tonnes and being a VAG parts bin.

Edited by Olivera on Thursday 10th June 17:34
Can Lotus, who have doggedly stuck to 'adding lightness' in their marketing and brand perception get away with selling a heavy shopping van with a load of fancy clothing and an enormous engine to enable that mass to move?

I think the brand would demand that there is some semblance of 'lightness'

Maybe that's why it might be a pure EV as the market can blame the batteries for the lardiness?