Do you prefer usable bhp or more bhp than you need?
Discussion
I posted in the Alfa forum about this very topic after I went from a 260bhp 159 to a 500bhp Giulia QF.
It made me the most sedate driver I’d ever been. It was lovely but way too fast - not just outright speed but the acceleration. Great for overtaking but no sooner were you on the throttle than you were off again.
I traded it in for the 280bhp Veloce model which is absolutely spot on in terms of useable power.
Having said that, I do miss the QF and will get another next year.
It made me the most sedate driver I’d ever been. It was lovely but way too fast - not just outright speed but the acceleration. Great for overtaking but no sooner were you on the throttle than you were off again.
I traded it in for the 280bhp Veloce model which is absolutely spot on in terms of useable power.
Having said that, I do miss the QF and will get another next year.
TameRacingDriver said:
Am I the only one who's happy with a 200 bhp car (an old mini in my case). It really isn't slow at all. I've seen lots of people who talk about having stuff like 350 bhp m135is and the like saying they love it as they can rev the balls off it and not be doing silly speeds 
I don't know what roads some of you drive on but revving the balls off cars with that power will see you either in a field or in prison in very short order round here. I'm also confused about the thought of a previous car of mine, a Z4 coupe 3.0 struggling to overtake a bus. I'm starting to wonder if I live in a parallel universe *shrugs* or is it just Willy waving?
LOL. You're definitely not alone! About 20 years ago I had a Rover 220GTi and even that, with a mighty 140bhp required a bit of restraint and lots of backing off to stay anywhere near sensible speeds. My Mrs has a MK5 Golf GTi with about 240 bhp and even on the tight roads here it's ridiculously easy to do totally inappropriate speeds. You don't have to be trying in the slightest. And that car is a snail compared to something like a 140i. I don't know what roads some of you drive on but revving the balls off cars with that power will see you either in a field or in prison in very short order round here. I'm also confused about the thought of a previous car of mine, a Z4 coupe 3.0 struggling to overtake a bus. I'm starting to wonder if I live in a parallel universe *shrugs* or is it just Willy waving?The trouble is, for all I love really thrashable, slower cars, for most driving having effortless power really is quite a nice thing to have. And it's also really nice to feel really quick acceleration from time to time. In an ideal world I'd have a bit of both but I don't think you can have it in one car. Would love something like a swift sport or a 90's hot hatch or another standard(ish) MX5. Just haven't got the space at the moment.
Lester H said:
As the O.P. Of a recent cliche thread, I shouldn’t really be reviving this one, but: “You can drive a fast car slowly, but you can’t drive a slow car fast.”
Whats 'fast' ?absolute speed or at the cars limit ?
I really really believe you can drive a slow car 'fast', especially these days when even a 'slow' car can manage 100mph.
But really, wagging the tail on a slow hatchback and feeling the car rise on its springs, move sideways before sitting down as you negotiate a yump but still at a relatively slow speed means your having the same fun, without the risks.
Edited by Gary C on Thursday 10th June 22:36
Gear ratios make a huge difference too. I have a short set of ratios in some of my cars. When combined with enough power to use it all on road for a considerable amount of time without hitting 3 figures too quickly makes them joyous to drive.
You need enough power to slide about at will but not too much as it can be frustrating.
You need enough power to slide about at will but not too much as it can be frustrating.
Just went out for a blast in the 911.
It was fun, the car isn't especially light but it has grip and enough power to pickup nicely. It turns in well and the noise as it hits its peak is great. It communicates well and is surprisingly mobile on its suspension meaning you can transfer the weight as you need to keep it from understeering but after a moment last year (12 year old tyres !, oops) there is no way I will throw it around like the polo anymore.
There is a road nearby which the EVO could run down flat out which the 911 just cannot manage due to the bumps.
Really, I probably have more pure 'driving' fun in the polo but the 911 is more epic, scary and quicker.
It was fun, the car isn't especially light but it has grip and enough power to pickup nicely. It turns in well and the noise as it hits its peak is great. It communicates well and is surprisingly mobile on its suspension meaning you can transfer the weight as you need to keep it from understeering but after a moment last year (12 year old tyres !, oops) there is no way I will throw it around like the polo anymore.
There is a road nearby which the EVO could run down flat out which the 911 just cannot manage due to the bumps.
Really, I probably have more pure 'driving' fun in the polo but the 911 is more epic, scary and quicker.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Exactly. My car only has a fairly meagre 375bhp, I barely ever use max power, but it's nice knowing it's there 
Likewise, still wish I had more!
This sums up a lot of posts on here: doesn’t use the power they have but still wants more. Irrational but common. Biggest is best sort of approach. Likewise, still wish I had more!More power almost always means more cost and more compromise. More expensive to buy, more expensive to run, thirstier, heavier, bigger wheels and normally less agile and rides worse. Seems like a lot of negatives for the very few times you can use the power. Most likely the real “benefit” of the power is the feeling of superiority it bestows upon the owner.
I would be interested to see how often owners of cars with 500+ bhp actually use all or even a substantial percentage of available power. Can that information be obtained via diagnostics? Anyone working in a garage done that?
I replaced a BMW with 300 bhp with a Golf with 150 bhp. For normal driving around town and on the motorway that is more than enough. I almost never get to drive fun roads in the car so any more power would be a waste of money.
I do have a motorbike that has more power than I need but the compromises with a bike are far fewer. Cost differences are low. I could have got a bike with 75 bhp for £7k or one with 175 for £13k. The latter also came with much higher spec suspension and most importantly, cornering ABS. Most other electronic aids are a nice to have but having watched videos of the difference between normal ABS and cornering ABS I was sold on it as a safety feature worth having.
Although it is becoming more common, cornering ABS is mainly only available on more expensive bikes (which are usually more powerful).
Next bike will be lower powered as cornering ABS now more available eg Aprilia RS660.
Esceptico said:
This sums up a lot of posts on here: doesn’t use the power they have but still wants more. Irrational but common. Biggest is best sort of approach.
More power almost always means more cost and more compromise. More expensive to buy, more expensive to run, thirstier, heavier, bigger wheels and normally less agile and rides worse. Seems like a lot of negatives for the very few times you can use the power. Most likely the real “benefit” of the power is the feeling of superiority it bestows upon the owner.
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While I am sure there is some truth in what you say, generalising it makes you sound a bit chippy. More power almost always means more cost and more compromise. More expensive to buy, more expensive to run, thirstier, heavier, bigger wheels and normally less agile and rides worse. Seems like a lot of negatives for the very few times you can use the power. Most likely the real “benefit” of the power is the feeling of superiority it bestows upon the owner.
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Car enthusiasm is a broad church and quite frankly I am not too bothered about other people's motivation for wanting a bit more than 150 hp per ton. And, as ever, we have the highest density of brilliant tracks in the world to use that extra power.
I also agree with you that weight is generally correlated to power but for some that's the price to pay.
nickfrog said:
While I am sure there is some truth in what you say, generalising it makes you sound a bit chippy.
Car enthusiasm is a broad church and quite frankly I am not too bothered about other people's motivation for wanting a bit more than 150 hp per ton. And, as ever, we have the highest density of brilliant tracks in the world to use that extra power.
I also agree with you that weight is generally correlated to power but for some that's the price to pay.
Age and experience should give you a different perspective, even if it doesn’t change your mind.Car enthusiasm is a broad church and quite frankly I am not too bothered about other people's motivation for wanting a bit more than 150 hp per ton. And, as ever, we have the highest density of brilliant tracks in the world to use that extra power.
I also agree with you that weight is generally correlated to power but for some that's the price to pay.
I definitely fell prey to the “more is better” ethos when I was younger. Having owned and driven lots of different cars and bikes over the years my views have altered somewhat.
Part of the “problem” IMO is that prestige ie more expensive cars have to be “better” than cheaper cars and partly that is reflected in power, as that can be measured objectively.
Is it just coincidental that back in the 90s hot hatches had around 120-130 bhp and proper sports cars and high end saloons had twice that whilst today hot hatches have 200-300 bhp and the top cars again have twice that, maintaining the ratio?
TameRacingDriver said:
Am I the only one who's happy with a 200 bhp car (an old mini in my case). It really isn't slow at all. I've seen lots of people who talk about having stuff like 350 bhp m135is and the like saying they love it as they can rev the balls off it and not be doing silly speeds I don't know what roads some of you drive on but revving the balls off cars with that power will see you either in a field or in prison in very short order round here. I'm also confused about the thought of a previous car of mine, a Z4 coupe 3.0 struggling to overtake a bus. I'm starting to wonder if I live in a parallel universe *shrugs* or is it just Willy waving?
Maybe 200bhp works for you. I don't know what roads some of you drive on but revving the balls off cars with that power will see you either in a field or in prison in very short order round here. I'm also confused about the thought of a previous car of mine, a Z4 coupe 3.0 struggling to overtake a bus. I'm starting to wonder if I live in a parallel universe *shrugs* or is it just Willy waving?
I had 3.0Si Z4 Coupes for over 5 years, but my MC works really well for overtaking buses - and other things!
SidewaysSi said:
Gear ratios make a huge difference too. I have a short set of ratios in some of my cars. When combined with enough power to use it all on road for a considerable amount of time without hitting 3 figures too quickly makes them joyous to drive.
Very much this. The ratios on my car are short and it's wonderful on the road as it feels like you're really driving it and gives it excellent punch in all the gears.Mr Tidy said:
Maybe 200bhp works for you.
I had 3.0Si Z4 Coupes for over 5 years, but my MC works really well for overtaking buses - and other things!
Yes it does. My 200 bhp mini doesn't feel slow in the slightest actually, enough to scare my Mrs anyway, weirdly she was ok in the Z4 which had another 80 bhp or so.I had 3.0Si Z4 Coupes for over 5 years, but my MC works really well for overtaking buses - and other things!
The Z4 had absolutely no difficulty with passing any traffic with just a 3.0 n52 engine though so I was just highlighting your comment as being a little silly. I'm glad you like your M version but come on let's be realistic the 3.0 is still a very quick car. If you struggled to overtake a bus in it then I suspect it's your driving at fault, but I don't actually believe that at all, because I bet until you get up to around 6k there won't be much difference between the two and that bus would be a distant memory in either car.
Esceptico said:
More power almost always means more cost and more compromise. More expensive to buy, more expensive to run, thirstier, heavier, bigger wheels and normally less agile and rides worse. Seems like a lot of negatives for the very few times you can use the power.
Must get the Lotus booked in to get this fitted.
Which should do this;
When I was a lot younger I had an E46 M3 - that for me was the pinnacle of power and drivability.
Moved to a 335d, so 300 ish BHP and a bit meh
V8 M3 was good until I got a Cayman S with less power but handling on a different level.
Today, I smoke around in a Vito van with all 190 bhp of power….
Wife has a battery car with 400bhp and have a 500bhp Vantage for “fun”
I think anything over 250bhp is a complete waste nowadays unfortunately
Moved to a 335d, so 300 ish BHP and a bit meh
V8 M3 was good until I got a Cayman S with less power but handling on a different level.
Today, I smoke around in a Vito van with all 190 bhp of power….
Wife has a battery car with 400bhp and have a 500bhp Vantage for “fun”
I think anything over 250bhp is a complete waste nowadays unfortunately
Esceptico said:
Is it just coincidental that back in the 90s hot hatches had around 120-130 bhp and proper sports cars and high end saloons had twice that whilst today hot hatches have 200-300 bhp and the top cars again have twice that, maintaining the ratio?
You can still buy a decent hot hatch with around 140hp in a relatively lightweight form, the SSS is a great example of that. As I said, different people like different things irrespective of any alleged or perceived superiority complex. Otherwise we would all be driving in 68hp Aygos (great car too by the way).I feel perhaps I should rephrase my position in light of a few posts in here.
If the car must remain standard and unmodified, then I would take the useable bhp / handling / lightness as a preference. So I'd rather an Aygo than an A45, rather an MX-5 than a Z4M or whatever equivalent lardy ~400bhp convertible BMW offer.
As mentioned, more power means more weight, tyres, brakes, cost, refinement, insulation etc. and you need to be doing 140mph to even notice anything has happened. Hence why the constant too much power for the road / can't use it / not fun until silly speeds etc.
If the car can be modified, then I'd take the 'more power than you need' option. Take a car that isn't too refined as to be numb, add 50% more power or some such and it's just about in the sweet spot
Can still mooch about and be enjoyable at normal speeds, but with the extra rollercoaster potential of it having a bit too much power, and thus feeling 'exciting'.
If the car must remain standard and unmodified, then I would take the useable bhp / handling / lightness as a preference. So I'd rather an Aygo than an A45, rather an MX-5 than a Z4M or whatever equivalent lardy ~400bhp convertible BMW offer.
As mentioned, more power means more weight, tyres, brakes, cost, refinement, insulation etc. and you need to be doing 140mph to even notice anything has happened. Hence why the constant too much power for the road / can't use it / not fun until silly speeds etc.
If the car can be modified, then I'd take the 'more power than you need' option. Take a car that isn't too refined as to be numb, add 50% more power or some such and it's just about in the sweet spot
Can still mooch about and be enjoyable at normal speeds, but with the extra rollercoaster potential of it having a bit too much power, and thus feeling 'exciting'.I find I enjoy cars with around 250 - 350 at 1300kg - 1500kg.
I did have a 911tt with c450 and I just didn't enjoy it. Well, it was exciting when you felt it was safe enough to "explore" but that was rare so the normal experience went between being terrified I would lose my license and being frustrated that other people were on the roads, in the way and not driving like a dick (like what I would have done if they weren't there).
I didn't take any joy from bimbling about knowing I had all the power on tap as at normal speeds it was pretty uninteresting and sounded rubbish as well. I now have a C4 with c300bhp and find I enjoy it more of the time. It still has enough shove, it can still do silly speeds but when I get a clear section of Scottish B road I just feel I'm enjoying more of the car without thoughts of prison or death.
OP. You've been here before with your e90 M3. These big over powered modern cars are pointless on UK roads.
I did have a 911tt with c450 and I just didn't enjoy it. Well, it was exciting when you felt it was safe enough to "explore" but that was rare so the normal experience went between being terrified I would lose my license and being frustrated that other people were on the roads, in the way and not driving like a dick (like what I would have done if they weren't there).
I didn't take any joy from bimbling about knowing I had all the power on tap as at normal speeds it was pretty uninteresting and sounded rubbish as well. I now have a C4 with c300bhp and find I enjoy it more of the time. It still has enough shove, it can still do silly speeds but when I get a clear section of Scottish B road I just feel I'm enjoying more of the car without thoughts of prison or death.
OP. You've been here before with your e90 M3. These big over powered modern cars are pointless on UK roads.
nunpuncher said:
I find I enjoy cars with around 250 - 350 at 1300kg - 1500kg.
(...)
OP. You've been here before with your e90 M3. These big over powered modern cars are pointless on UK roads.
From memory the M3 in question was 420ps and under 1600kgs DIN so not that different from a 350ps 1500kgs car in your range in terms of supposed "pointlessness".(...)
OP. You've been here before with your e90 M3. These big over powered modern cars are pointless on UK roads.
Personally I am quite close to your threshold at 1495kgs DIN and 370ps. Which works really well on UK roads IME.
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