Will electric hot hatches be a hit ?
Discussion
Northernboy said:
Wiltshire Lad said:
According to DoT stats average daily mileage is around 19 miles .
Average isn't the figure that matters though. The one that you care about is the longest journey that you'll want to do in the car regularly. If someone does trips to the shops twice a week but also wants to do a couple of hundred miles every other month then they have a problem.My average mileage is quite low, but I use the same car to go up and down the country a few times a year.
Many households have more than one car so that removes the issue, many more have scheduled longer trips that can be dealt with using an app to have a different vehicle brought to the door or use a train to get from one low mileage EV to another.
The actual number of people who genuinely couldn't make an EV hatchback work is going to be pretty small and there's no harm in those people sticking with petrol.
Northernboy said:
s m said:
I know the range extender ones used to be about 1465kg - I guess without it they are a bit lighter?
I think that they are listed as being about 1,370. It'd be interesting to see what's been needed to drop 170kg, whch is a lot in a car.They mentioned the range extender adds about 120kg so without would be around 1340kg
nickfrog said:
I agree, that's what I meant by polarised views with little critical thinking. A fairly classic PH gaussian distribution thing where both noisy minority ends of the curve manage to spoil an otherwise interesting discussion.
I am trying not to be a noisy minority end. Or at least to be a gently-poking-fun one, rather than a mean ranty one.DonkeyApple said:
Same here but the honest reality is that I could hire a Range Rover, having it delivered to my door, for those journeys.
Many households have more than one car so that removes the issue, many more have scheduled longer trips that can be dealt with using an app to have a different vehicle brought to the door or use a train to get from one low mileage EV to another.
The actual number of people who genuinely couldn't make an EV hatchback work is going to be pretty small and there's no harm in those people sticking with petrol.
Although I've thought that the economics of doing this woudl make sense I know that I'd end up struggling with the town car when I looked at the daily cost of a Range Rover hire, which is why I own mine.Many households have more than one car so that removes the issue, many more have scheduled longer trips that can be dealt with using an app to have a different vehicle brought to the door or use a train to get from one low mileage EV to another.
The actual number of people who genuinely couldn't make an EV hatchback work is going to be pretty small and there's no harm in those people sticking with petrol.
I'd happily have an electric car for the local trips, and when we change the wife's car next that's what we'll have, but I do think that for a lot of people who are looking at whether to buy a Golf Gti or an e-equivalent the range is going to rule out the electric one. Even if the car's just for fun, I couldn't make it from Newcastle up to Kielder and back in a car with a "real world" 110 mile range, which could well be 60-70 miles when driven a bit harder.
That's why I'm getting a GR Yaris rather than a Honda-e for my second car in the North East.
DonkeyApple said:
Northernboy said:
DonkeyApple said:
That said, the i3 is the same sort of weight as a typical hot hatch and good fun to hoon. The range is also OK, even for blasts between mundanity. I've not driven the EV Mini but the performance stats and weight aren't all that off. I think these two cars that are at the early stage of EVs tend to show that everything is there bar the manual labour and oikery which personally, I consider key ingredients.
It's got a "real world" range of about 110 miles though, hasn't it? That's not really "OK" as someone's only car unless they really never use it for much other than commutig and local trips.
)The issue being that when I want range I want *lots* of range. I'd love the ability to have an EV with a tiny battery then if I wanted to do a big trip phone up and have someone come round shove an extra set of batteries that then give me 400Mi range...get home after the trip, phone them up again and they come and take them back out again.
This would also enable quick swapped batteries for charged ones.
Not going to happen though because the batteries are so integrated with the cars chassis and without a standard battery "pack" it wouldn't be cost effective for a "charging station" to hold a massive number of charged batteries one for each different make/model.
I don't want a tiny city car and "hired range rover" for a day as with two children and a dog the bare minimum is Golf sized (and then can't take *anything* else in the boot).
This of course means that to get the the kind of range I'd like you have to buy a *far* bigger battery than desirable and that comes with a massive additional cost. It also means that for "normal" use you're carting round 100's of Kg of batteries that you hardly ever use which affects everything.
For those that love to point out that weight doesn't affect EV as much...they're right and wrong. Yes you can recover energy but it still affects cornering and more importantly to overcome the weight you need to put more power in which means the point you start running into thermal issues (and hence in the case of a "hot hatch" when it forces you to slow down) come sooner.
I'd love a 128ti electric equivalent with the same performance, passenger and luggage space where the batteries don't have your knees at chin height in the rear a la Kona. Probably unachievable with current battery technology but that will change. No noise, no belt drives, no oil, filter or plug changes and no clutches twin or otherwise. Ahh bliss.
Leaning towards Toyota's 2.0L hybrid with both direct and indirect injection as a compromise as I'm getting too old to wait on future developments.
Or, sod it and get the 128ti.
Leaning towards Toyota's 2.0L hybrid with both direct and indirect injection as a compromise as I'm getting too old to wait on future developments.
Or, sod it and get the 128ti.
Fastdruid said:
Genuinely I'd be happy with a ~40Mi range for probably 98% of the time (although with Covid at the moment it's nearer a 10Mi range! )
The issue being that when I want range I want *lots* of range. I'd love the ability to have an EV with a tiny battery then if I wanted to do a big trip phone up and have someone come round shove an extra set of batteries that then give me 400Mi range...get home after the trip, phone them up again and they come and take them back out again.
This would also enable quick swapped batteries for charged ones.
Not going to happen though because the batteries are so integrated with the cars chassis and without a standard battery "pack" it wouldn't be cost effective for a "charging station" to hold a massive number of charged batteries one for each different make/model.
I don't want a tiny city car and "hired range rover" for a day as with two children and a dog the bare minimum is Golf sized (and then can't take *anything* else in the boot).
This of course means that to get the the kind of range I'd like you have to buy a *far* bigger battery than desirable and that comes with a massive additional cost. It also means that for "normal" use you're carting round 100's of Kg of batteries that you hardly ever use which affects everything.
For those that love to point out that weight doesn't affect EV as much...they're right and wrong. Yes you can recover energy but it still affects cornering and more importantly to overcome the weight you need to put more power in which means the point you start running into thermal issues (and hence in the case of a "hot hatch" when it forces you to slow down) come sooner.
I think that EVs will bring home how little mileage people actually do and that most anomalous journeys tend to be planned. )The issue being that when I want range I want *lots* of range. I'd love the ability to have an EV with a tiny battery then if I wanted to do a big trip phone up and have someone come round shove an extra set of batteries that then give me 400Mi range...get home after the trip, phone them up again and they come and take them back out again.
This would also enable quick swapped batteries for charged ones.
Not going to happen though because the batteries are so integrated with the cars chassis and without a standard battery "pack" it wouldn't be cost effective for a "charging station" to hold a massive number of charged batteries one for each different make/model.
I don't want a tiny city car and "hired range rover" for a day as with two children and a dog the bare minimum is Golf sized (and then can't take *anything* else in the boot).
This of course means that to get the the kind of range I'd like you have to buy a *far* bigger battery than desirable and that comes with a massive additional cost. It also means that for "normal" use you're carting round 100's of Kg of batteries that you hardly ever use which affects everything.
For those that love to point out that weight doesn't affect EV as much...they're right and wrong. Yes you can recover energy but it still affects cornering and more importantly to overcome the weight you need to put more power in which means the point you start running into thermal issues (and hence in the case of a "hot hatch" when it forces you to slow down) come sooner.
Humans are great at adapting and changing. It seems quite feasible that a market will develop whereby consumers can opt to buy cheap EVs with relatively limited ranges for all their day to day stuff but that around ring roads will develop car rental services oriented more towards parking ones EVs and using a more practical car for the rarer long distance journeys.
We live in a world where already very few people actually own a car but are, one way or another, renting them and these people rent other cars at airports when they travel. All the building blocks are already there one way or another for car usage to evolve quite robustly if needs be.
I think it's natural to prefer to just have one car that can simply do all our day to day mundane stuff and still easily get us to the other end of the country without ever having to engage brain but in reality it wouldn't exactly be a great amount of work or deviation to opt for one small EV and to rent more practical cars as and when needed just like we rent holiday cars or vans as and when needed. The mechanism is already there and in use it just hasn't been put in a trendy app and given a weird name then promoted on TV by some low budget spanner with a speech impediment or secret predilection for sex with squirrels.
DonkeyApple said:
I think it's natural to prefer to just have one car that can simply do all our day to day mundane stuff and still easily get us to the other end of the country without ever having to engage brain but in reality it wouldn't exactly be a great amount of work or deviation to opt for one small EV and to rent more practical cars as and when needed just like we rent holiday cars or vans as and when needed. The mechanism is already there and in use it just hasn't been put in a trendy app and given a weird name then promoted on TV by some low budget spanner with a speech impediment or secret predilection for sex with squirrels.
Thing is though it's _just_ the range that is an issue. I grant my car (an estate) isn't ideal for "one person commuting" but that's increasingly rare anyway and it gets used every week for family of 4 plus dog (as well as regular bike carrier). So a small EV just doesn't fit and borrowing/renting a "more practical" car every weekend would be a royal pain (not to mention ridiculously expensive). Fastdruid said:
Thing is though it's _just_ the range that is an issue. I grant my car (an estate) isn't ideal for "one person commuting" but that's increasingly rare anyway and it gets used every week for family of 4 plus dog (as well as regular bike carrier). So a small EV just doesn't fit and borrowing/renting a "more practical" car every weekend would be a royal pain (not to mention ridiculously expensive).
But this is a thread regarding hatchbacks so any size issues wouldn't be particularly relevant. Northernboy said:
Wiltshire Lad said:
According to DoT stats average daily mileage is around 19 miles .
Average isn't the figure that matters though. The one that you care about is the longest journey that you'll want to do in the car regularly. If someone does trips to the shops twice a week but also wants to do a couple of hundred miles every other month then they have a problem.My average mileage is quite low, but I use the same car to go up and down the country a few times a year.
Northernboy said:
I'd happily have an electric car for the local trips, and when we change the wife's car next that's what we'll have, but I do think that for a lot of people who are looking at whether to buy a Golf Gti or an e-equivalent the range is going to rule out the electric one. Even if the car's just for fun, I couldn't make it from Newcastle up to Kielder and back in a car with a "real world" 110 mile range, which could well be 60-70 miles when driven a bit harder.
That's why I'm getting a GR Yaris rather than a Honda-e for my second car in the North East.
So you've bought a GR Yaris over an EV because of it's 'practicality'? That is a brilliant piece of self justification! - I used a similar argument on my wife for swapping my Elise for a Chimaera - more practical......That's why I'm getting a GR Yaris rather than a Honda-e for my second car in the North East.
Enjoy the Yaris - fantastic bit of kit...
Wiltshire Lad said:
So you've bought a GR Yaris over an EV because of it's 'practicality'? That is a brilliant piece of self justification! - I used a similar argument on my wife for swapping my Elise for a Chimaera - more practical......
Enjoy the Yaris - fantastic bit of kit...
The Yaris is mainly for fun, but it does have the benefit of being able to be used for longer trips if needed.Enjoy the Yaris - fantastic bit of kit...
My wife drives a little city car, and we’ll replace that with an electric car when it’s time for a new one. The range won’t be a problem then as we’ve also got a big family car here.
Wiltshire Lad said:
So you've bought a GR Yaris over an EV because of it's 'practicality'? That is a brilliant piece of self justification! - I used a similar argument on my wife for swapping my Elise for a Chimaera - more practical......
Enjoy the Yaris - fantastic bit of kit...
What's unfortunate is that those are three cars which due to their tiny production numbers as well as how they are typically used just aren't part of the global or even local issues but will eventually get caught up in the change while being poster boys for kitten and child murder. Enjoy the Yaris - fantastic bit of kit...
Wiltshire Lad said:
Northernboy said:
Wiltshire Lad said:
According to DoT stats average daily mileage is around 19 miles .
Average isn't the figure that matters though. The one that you care about is the longest journey that you'll want to do in the car regularly. If someone does trips to the shops twice a week but also wants to do a couple of hundred miles every other month then they have a problem.My average mileage is quite low, but I use the same car to go up and down the country a few times a year.
Oddly, the hot hatch owners I've known in recent years have all, in effect, been second-car drivers; family men who lumber their wives with a big estate/SUV so they can cane the hatch on their daily commute. Surveyor with a Type-R, doctor with a R32 Golf, even a dentist with a Sunny GTi-R (that's going back a bit...)
DonkeyApple said:
The only significant issue being that hatches are predominantly urban vehicles and more urban environments will probably set outright bans on ICE cars over the next decade?
That there is the only fly in the ointment I think. Otherwise I'm with you on everything you've said on this thread.Any form of hot hatch isn't for me primarily because I think I'm now too old (42) although I had quite a few when I was younger. I've also had some pinnacle chavmobiles too - M3, Escort Cosworths, Imprezas - none of which (or the modern equivalents) I could possibly bring myself to drive now.
Blu3R said:
DonkeyApple said:
The only significant issue being that hatches are predominantly urban vehicles and more urban environments will probably set outright bans on ICE cars over the next decade?
That there is the only fly in the ointment I think. Otherwise I'm with you on everything you've said on this thread.Any form of hot hatch isn't for me primarily because I think I'm now too old (42) although I had quite a few when I was younger. I've also had some pinnacle chavmobiles too - M3, Escort Cosworths, Imprezas - none of which (or the modern equivalents) I could possibly bring myself to drive now.
Blu3R said:
Any form of hot hatch isn't for me primarily because I think I'm now too old (42) although I had quite a few when I was younger. I've also had some pinnacle chavmobiles too - M3, Escort Cosworths, Imprezas - none of which (or the modern equivalents) I could possibly bring myself to drive now.
You're never too old to drive a car that you like and that should happen without giving a s
t what other people think. Particularly at 42!!Neil1323bolts said:
Blu3R said:
DonkeyApple said:
The only significant issue being that hatches are predominantly urban vehicles and more urban environments will probably set outright bans on ICE cars over the next decade?
That there is the only fly in the ointment I think. Otherwise I'm with you on everything you've said on this thread.Any form of hot hatch isn't for me primarily because I think I'm now too old (42) although I had quite a few when I was younger. I've also had some pinnacle chavmobiles too - M3, Escort Cosworths, Imprezas - none of which (or the modern equivalents) I could possibly bring myself to drive now.
DonkeyApple said:
What's unfortunate is that those are three cars which due to their tiny production numbers as well as how they are typically used just aren't part of the global or even local issues but will eventually get caught up in the change while being poster boys for kitten and child murder.
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