RE: Cayman GT4 PDK vs. A110 Legende GT vs. Huracan RWD
Discussion
Miserablegit said:
Except the most vocal, as usual, are the ones who are not/ were not in the market for this kind of car anyway.
The lambo is impressive if the weight is anywhere near that- I’d love a V10.
As others have said, one of the compromises with other cars is the speed that needs to be obtained before the car feels alive. It’s no good having an engine that sounds good at 7k if the gearing means there’s risk of points every time it is explored.
The benefit of the DCT in the Alpine is it is geared for fun at normal speeds with close ratios that match cars of old - choose a gear for every 10mph approximately.
This means the engine can be exercised through a lot of the gears without needing to worry about points.
I have a Huracan Evo RWD, and have Alpine on the way as you know. It’s my second one, after having an early Pure, so I know what it’s like! The lambo is impressive if the weight is anywhere near that- I’d love a V10.
As others have said, one of the compromises with other cars is the speed that needs to be obtained before the car feels alive. It’s no good having an engine that sounds good at 7k if the gearing means there’s risk of points every time it is explored.
The benefit of the DCT in the Alpine is it is geared for fun at normal speeds with close ratios that match cars of old - choose a gear for every 10mph approximately.
This means the engine can be exercised through a lot of the gears without needing to worry about points.
The RWD is much better to drive than a 4WD Huracan imo, as you do feel the weight saving and the more responsive steering that results from not putting drive through front wheels.
Yes, it was the V10 that sealed the deal, and also the fact that local dealer got a car in, that was pretty much my perfect spec.
It’s a proper weapon, but it’s (hopefully) my final reminder that all of these high end supercars are now too fast for the road. It is very rare that you get to top end of Rev range in anything.
Let’s face it, whatever people say it’s hard to compare an A110 to a Huracan Evo. There is a reason for the £150k price difference, and you’d have to have a heart of stone not to feel a bit better driving a Lambo!
But having said all that, I’ll bet that in 12 months time I’ll only own one of them, and it will only have 4 cylinders… it is a much more useable road car, and it is set up to do that job, not to churn out higher bhp numbers, and lower 0-60 times. Huracan is something to experience, Alpine is something to keep, imo. (Although I’ve said that before!)
PS - just to complete he comparisons… I did have an Exige 430, but sold that with incomings due. Alpine is a better answer on the road, obviously the Exige is on track.
Prestonese said:
PH User said:
Shame there wasn't the choice though, I'm sure we would all agree with that.
Similarly some of us would like the gearing on the GT4 to be better and the whole car to be lighter and the aero trinkets to be less ridiculous. Every car is a compromise.PH User said:
Prestonese said:
PH User said:
Shame there wasn't the choice though, I'm sure we would all agree with that.
Similarly some of us would like the gearing on the GT4 to be better and the whole car to be lighter and the aero trinkets to be less ridiculous. Every car is a compromise.Lack of manual in the A110 a massive oversight imo, it should not even be mentioned in this company.
What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
tarquin274 said:
Lack of manual in the A110 a massive oversight imo, it should not even be mentioned in this company.
What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
I don't see the Renault thing as being an issue, if that kind of thing is a stumbling block then who would spend £35k on an Aygo?! What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
burpface said:
burpface said:
What is the location of the test?
The photographs look stunning.
Apparently the Alpine isn't available with a manual gearbox, but in other news it would be great to know where the articles photos were taken , it looks fantastic....The photographs look stunning.
Its pretty commonly used by quite a few of the auto testers (CH uses it pretty regularly, see the 911R/Pug video for instance) and obviously any of the locals …Watch out for some of the "steps" in the surface where subsidence has got to some of the lower sections of the road, slow(er) pass one way before a more spirited return if you're not a regular is the way to go.
Have fun!
tarquin274 said:
Lack of manual in the A110 a massive oversight imo, it should not even be mentioned in this company.
What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
Good point. On the A110, I have to say I agree with Harry...What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
https://youtu.be/kHPtRwwLVhQ?t=1770
tarquin274 said:
Lack of manual in the A110 a massive oversight imo, it should not even be mentioned in this company.
What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
Read the article. It deliberately put mid engined RWD cars with auto transmissions up against each other. You might be right that the comparisons are odd but it's not because of the transmission. The Yaris has neither the transmission, the drivetrain or the engine configuration.What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
I'm not slighting the Yaris as I own a GRY but (mechanicals aside) it's definitely not built to feel like the quality of a 35k premium hatch so you can argue it also comes under the same issue as the Alpine. Harry Metcalfe seems to think Toyota are losing 10k per car so you can see why Alpine aren't giving these away.
Lexington59 said:
tarquin274 said:
Lack of manual in the A110 a massive oversight imo, it should not even be mentioned in this company.
What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
Good point. On the A110, I have to say I agree with Harry...What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
https://youtu.be/kHPtRwwLVhQ?t=1770
Lexington59 said:
tarquin274 said:
Lack of manual in the A110 a massive oversight imo, it should not even be mentioned in this company.
What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
Good point. On the A110, I have to say I agree with Harry...What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
https://youtu.be/kHPtRwwLVhQ?t=1770
...Am I doing this right?
And yes, I am awaiting delivery of an over-priced parts bin Clio coupe with a slush box bought from a dealer where I had to wade through a queue of pensioners picking up their new Captur's. Oh the indignity of it. Have to say, I'm more than excited to have chosen one over a 718, even if it does mean a 6 month lead time from order. They are hardly piled high in a field waiting for buyers to appear so demand is less the issue than their ability to make them at high enough volume.
Edited by biggles330d on Monday 21st June 18:06
tarquin274 said:
Lack of manual in the A110 a massive oversight imo, it should not even be mentioned in this company.
What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
I’m guessing if the gr Yaris was a two pedal flappy paddle only, like the alpine, there would be nothing like the demand for it that there is.What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
Bit like when the Clio went auto only.
Prestonese said:
Lexington59 said:
tarquin274 said:
Lack of manual in the A110 a massive oversight imo, it should not even be mentioned in this company.
What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
Good point. On the A110, I have to say I agree with Harry...What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
https://youtu.be/kHPtRwwLVhQ?t=1770
This is the "daily driver" slot for me, rather than a Sunday car - so my car needs to do the boring stuff we don't talk about on forums, as well as be lots of fun when i just want a drive, or take the long way back. On practicality, clearly the Yaris has it - small boot, but with seats down (van form, in Harry's video) its can take a lot. It has has Carplay, which means infotainment: all done. Completed it mate. With Carplay - you have all you'll ever need. Stereo is crap, but not much better on the Alpine, and whilst not a quality sound, at least it can drown out the not inconsiderable road noise. Radar cruise and auto-steering on the motorway also surprisingly good - main daily driver let down for a 3 person family is the range. Not much more than 200 miles if you mix motorway and "proper" driving. Regularly see <20mpg on the latter - and fuel tank tiny.
As a fun car though - the Yaris' USP is just endless grip and sheer speed .Engine doesn't sound great, but who cares when you're absolutely belting around country lanes without a hint of traction loss (maybe a bit in Sports mode, only in the wet so far tho). Which is still fun - there is a lot to be said about just going Really Really Fast sometimes (on the right road, with enough visibility to pick out cyclists, etc). Genuinely don't think i'd ever need faster as a road car.
The Alpine is the car i want though, the GR Yaris was more of a cheap 2 year stopgap (cheap due to residuals, they're still going to be excellent in 2 years lets face it). Felt more special and bespoke to sit inside, and yeah - maybe a stalk is from Renault, but who actually gives a s**t? Am sure a Cayman is much nicer, but i don't want a 1450kg sports car, so not for me. Practicality wise, less luggage space clearly; no rear seats isn't a big issue for me, but an auto box i actually prefer as a daily - as most people do, even if they don't admit it on the internet. I am sure it's not actually as quick point to point, but from what i remember of my hour - you can feel substantially more of what is going on from the steering, and you could also feel the limits of traction at less ridiculous speeds than it would take in the Yaris. It "feels" much lighter than the 180kg or difference - the steering is quicker, and the damping/ride magnificent. Bit of roll maybe i noticed - but if that's a consequence of the damping, then it's fine by me. Feels a car just made for B road, rather than track days, or special stages .Reminded me the Clio 182 Trophy i had for a bit in that respect. It'll be slower for most drivers most of the time, but again - do i really care?
Doesn't sound that good, but again, doesn't bother me (NSX with a Pride V2 car for Sundays is the greatest sounding car of all time in my humble opinion, and i've got one of those so can tick that box elsewhere); lack of carplay will probably annoy me more than i should admit on an internet car forum, but - it will. MPG and range way better though - which again, matters to me in a daily.
Neither car so far have lost much money, so both look a decent shout as an ownership proposition. I need to repeat the Alpine test drive at some point and drive the Yaris down to the dealer, not a 30 year old Honda - but based on what I recall, would still go that way ultimately.
cidered77 said:
Prestonese said:
Lexington59 said:
tarquin274 said:
Lack of manual in the A110 a massive oversight imo, it should not even be mentioned in this company.
What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
Good point. On the A110, I have to say I agree with Harry...What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
https://youtu.be/kHPtRwwLVhQ?t=1770
This is the "daily driver" slot for me, rather than a Sunday car - so my car needs to do the boring stuff we don't talk about on forums, as well as be lots of fun when i just want a drive, or take the long way back. On practicality, clearly the Yaris has it - small boot, but with seats down (van form, in Harry's video) its can take a lot. It has has Carplay, which means infotainment: all done. Completed it mate. With Carplay - you have all you'll ever need. Stereo is crap, but not much better on the Alpine, and whilst not a quality sound, at least it can drown out the not inconsiderable road noise. Radar cruise and auto-steering on the motorway also surprisingly good - main daily driver let down for a 3 person family is the range. Not much more than 200 miles if you mix motorway and "proper" driving. Regularly see <20mpg on the latter - and fuel tank tiny.
As a fun car though - the Yaris' USP is just endless grip and sheer speed .Engine doesn't sound great, but who cares when you're absolutely belting around country lanes without a hint of traction loss (maybe a bit in Sports mode, only in the wet so far tho). Which is still fun - there is a lot to be said about just going Really Really Fast sometimes (on the right road, with enough visibility to pick out cyclists, etc). Genuinely don't think i'd ever need faster as a road car.
The Alpine is the car i want though, the GR Yaris was more of a cheap 2 year stopgap (cheap due to residuals, they're still going to be excellent in 2 years lets face it). Felt more special and bespoke to sit inside, and yeah - maybe a stalk is from Renault, but who actually gives a s**t? Am sure a Cayman is much nicer, but i don't want a 1450kg sports car, so not for me. Practicality wise, less luggage space clearly; no rear seats isn't a big issue for me, but an auto box i actually prefer as a daily - as most people do, even if they don't admit it on the internet. I am sure it's not actually as quick point to point, but from what i remember of my hour - you can feel substantially more of what is going on from the steering, and you could also feel the limits of traction at less ridiculous speeds than it would take in the Yaris. It "feels" much lighter than the 180kg or difference - the steering is quicker, and the damping/ride magnificent. Bit of roll maybe i noticed - but if that's a consequence of the damping, then it's fine by me. Feels a car just made for B road, rather than track days, or special stages .Reminded me the Clio 182 Trophy i had for a bit in that respect. It'll be slower for most drivers most of the time, but again - do i really care?
Doesn't sound that good, but again, doesn't bother me (NSX with a Pride V2 car for Sundays is the greatest sounding car of all time in my humble opinion, and i've got one of those so can tick that box elsewhere); lack of carplay will probably annoy me more than i should admit on an internet car forum, but - it will. MPG and range way better though - which again, matters to me in a daily.
Neither car so far have lost much money, so both look a decent shout as an ownership proposition. I need to repeat the Alpine test drive at some point and drive the Yaris down to the dealer, not a 30 year old Honda - but based on what I recall, would still go that way ultimately.
tarquin274 said:
Lack of manual in the A110 a massive oversight imo, it should not even be mentioned in this company.
What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
There is a lot of misrepresentation of Alpine sales. Around 9000 have been sold. In Europe (the only significant market the A110 is sold) the Alpine comfortably outsold the Cayman in 2019 (yes really!) and outsold all other comparable coupes bar the TT. Sales since have been less boyant - but even in the first quarter of this year the A110 European sales have been well above half those of the Cayman. What would be a good comparison is to something like the new GR Yaris. They really seem to have nailed that car - and despite a limited run the demand in the UK and Germany is off the chart, all 25k units massively oversubscribed. Unlike the A110's abysmal sales figures. Could it be Toyota actually nailed the price point ? @ £35k what a bargain. Nobody outside of the extremists is going to pay £50k+ at a Renault dealership!
The impression that sales are low is because in the UK they are - because there are only 7 dealers in total. So you have to be pretty keen to put up with what for many will be a couple of hours or more round trip to your nearest dealer. At least one owner lives in Northern Island - and there are no dealers there. Even Lotus have 25 UK dealers. Porsche have 18 dealers in Scotland alone!
And as for the lack of a manual inhibiting sales - it's the lack of a convertible that is a VASTLY bigger issue. 80% of Caysters are PDK - 60+% are Boxsters. Unfortunately making a convertible/targa Alpine is non-trivial and will have a significant weight impact.
Down4wotever said:
Shame I don't have one of them fancy dash cams or something like a Go Pro when out and about. Had this S in Matt since Jan 21, honestly the number of men, women and children who stare, point and come up to query what on earth this is and in a nice surprised, like "never seen one but lovely car mate". Then of course you get those who know their cars and even then it's all thumbs up. Guess it's the rarity but make NO MISTAKE Alpine is a head tuner, and I have to say the majority see the 4 ringed driving leds first, i.e. as opposed to parked car, but kids especially see some magic, may be symmetry but there's something there for sure. 
Stunning car 😍[quote=Miserablegit]Except the most vocal, as usual, are the ones who are not/ were not in the market for this kind of car anyway.
The lambo is impressive if the weight is anywhere near that- I’d love a V10.
As others have said, one of the compromises with other cars is the speed that needs to be obtained before the car feels alive. It’s no good having an engine that sounds good at 7k if the gearing means there’s risk of points every time it is explored.
The benefit of the DCT in the Alpine is it is geared for fun at normal speeds with close ratios that match cars of old - choose a gear for every 10mph approximately.
This means the engine can be exercised through a lot of the gears without needing to worry about points.
Exactly this....after months of boring well behaved driving, stretched third gear in my tuned F80 M3 and was immediately buzzed by the fuzz in a plain Astra estate.
Pointless bloody car.....
The lambo is impressive if the weight is anywhere near that- I’d love a V10.
As others have said, one of the compromises with other cars is the speed that needs to be obtained before the car feels alive. It’s no good having an engine that sounds good at 7k if the gearing means there’s risk of points every time it is explored.
The benefit of the DCT in the Alpine is it is geared for fun at normal speeds with close ratios that match cars of old - choose a gear for every 10mph approximately.
This means the engine can be exercised through a lot of the gears without needing to worry about points.
Exactly this....after months of boring well behaved driving, stretched third gear in my tuned F80 M3 and was immediately buzzed by the fuzz in a plain Astra estate.
Pointless bloody car.....
Edited by Andrew-396pl on Monday 21st June 19:49
ddom said:
£100K for a Cayman. Nope.
Well I have good news- here’s a five year old one for £73k...https://finder.porsche.com/gb/en_GB/Cayman-GT4-315...
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