Large capacity engines. Very sought after or hot potato?

[300bhp/ton]

chriscoates said:

Interesting subject as I am one of those who bit the bullet and bought a 2008 XJR earlier this year as a 'last opportunity to own a supercharged V8' sort of purchase.

It's an odd perspective isn't it. For as long as I can remember, even when being a small child. People (in the UK) would often say about owning a V8 before the make them illegal.... kind of thing. Sure it used to be published in many motoring mags, again and again. Yet in the past 35-40 years (or even longer). I don't recall any V8's becoming illegal to buy, own or drive.

[AC43]

300bhp/ton said:

chriscoates said:

Interesting subject as I am one of those who bit the bullet and bought a 2008 XJR earlier this year as a 'last opportunity to own a supercharged V8' sort of purchase.

It's an odd perspective isn't it. For as long as I can remember, even when being a small child. People (in the UK) would often say about owning a V8 before the make them illegal.... kind of thing. Sure it used to be published in many motoring mags, again and again. Yet in the past 35-40 years (or even longer). I don't recall any V8's becoming illegal to buy, own or drive.

It's going to get harder and harder to buy new ones soon.

Luckily, there will still be plenty of used ones to go around.

[juice]

AC43 said:

I think a lot of the AMG's will remain in demand. They're build around some epic engines - the E55k being one, the 6.2 that followed it being another. Halo engines in halo models.

I do hope my SLK55 fits into the list. If it doesn't then hey ho, it will still continue to make me smile with the epic noise it makes.

[KarlMac]

KTMsm said:

Lil_Red_GTV said:

A silent Elise could be fun

In what way would a quieter car be more fun ?

The main reason I like V8s is the noise they make - a V8 Elise, now that would be fun !

Wasn’t the first Tesla roadster a silent Elise and categorically not fun?

[aarondbs]

FaustF said:

Good topic.

To me I think the upper echelon of performance cars with large engines should be fine, its the step below where I think there will be issues. And suvs....

So V8 S4, 550i, almost any of the 4.4v8 bmws, the 4.2 audis that aren't RS etc etc

The running costs and taxes will not be congruent with the 'specialness' of the engine.

Damn! I have a 4.4v8 BMW. A 2004 6 series that is still my daily!!

Ruined my day that has.. ruined my day!

[cidered77]

Steamer said:

Audi R8 - V8 manual... holding firm at 40k ish.. I'd have thought that has got to be one of the last great V8 / manual combos hasn't it?

The ones without a wrap and silly mods.

Asking for a friend.

i thought so - and got one for 38k in exactly the right colour combo (iron man spec), and that glorious engine and 'box. Yes the V10 makes a nice noice, but i think the original will pass the test of time better (on no other basis than i hope it will, as i have one!).

On the OP's question - as others said it's all supply and demand, but the other factor influencing demand beyond steadily increasing cost is just the hassle and therefore time commitment it will require.

Not just finding a fuel station either - but keeping them running. I've got a 1990 560 SEC merc, and there already certain parts NLA, and they made plenty of those . Plus there are the supply and location of appropriate specialists; the old blokes will retire, and there will only be replacements if there is enough money to made to build a career out of doing it.....

[Alex_225]

AC43 said:

Alex_225 said:

I'd love to think that my CLS63 will remain interesting, it's a good looking four seater car with a 500bhp 6.2 V8. That engine stood out at the time it was brand new and more so as it ages and engines shrink by the year.

I think a lot of the AMG's will remain in demand. They're build around some epic engines - the E55k being one, the 6.2 that followed it being another. Halo engines in halo models.

I'd love to think so. I mean it's one of the reasons I bought mine in the first place and would love to run one as a daily car too. Both the 5.5 super charged and 6.2 N/A engines are pretty epic. Plus they have been in the SLR and SLS so even based on those two cars, it makes them quite something!

[Olivergt]

I don't think there will be an issue with fuel stations for at least another 20-25 years minimum.

But would agree that the older a car gets the more work involved in keeping it running.

I have an 88 BMW 7 Series and like the 90's Merc, there are parts that are no longer available.

There is also the question of experts to look after them, I'm lucky enough that I have a garage and a few tools and am reasonably confident to tackle the easier mechanical issues, I'm also ok at diagnosing issues with the help of the Internet. I do know for a fact though that if I had to rely on others to look after this car, it would not be affordable for me.

So, currently I'm not supporting any current experts, so where the next generation of experts is going to come from I think is the biggest issue as there are not as many people home spannering now as there was when I was growing up (this is primarily due to the fact that cars are a lot more reliable now).

I'm old enough now that it probably won't be a problem in my lifetime, so going to enjoy my large (3.5L so not that large!) engine while I can and hopefully keep it going for another good few years.

With regards to whether they will still be desirable in a few years time, I think the answer to that is YES, I didn't buy my car for the daily commute, I'm quite happy that it might sit in the garage unused for weeks at a time, I'm quite happy that it might be off the road for a few weeks/months waiting a fix for a strange issue, and I think that is the case for most people who buy old cars with large engines, half the fun is fixing the odd issue and trying to get them back to full working order (mine has a way to go!)

[cidered77]

Olivergt said:

I don't think there will be an issue with fuel stations for at least another 20-25 years minimum.

But would agree that the older a car gets the more work involved in keeping it running.

I have an 88 BMW 7 Series and like the 90's Merc, there are parts that are no longer available.

There is also the question of experts to look after them, I'm lucky enough that I have a garage and a few tools and am reasonably confident to tackle the easier mechanical issues, I'm also ok at diagnosing issues with the help of the Internet. I do know for a fact though that if I had to rely on others to look after this car, it would not be affordable for me.

So, currently I'm not supporting any current experts, so where the next generation of experts is going to come from I think is the biggest issue as there are not as many people home spannering now as there was when I was growing up (this is primarily due to the fact that cars are a lot more reliable now).

I'm old enough now that it probably won't be a problem in my lifetime, so going to enjoy my large (3.5L so not that large!) engine while I can and hopefully keep it going for another good few years.

With regards to whether they will still be desirable in a few years time, I think the answer to that is YES, I didn't buy my car for the daily commute, I'm quite happy that it might sit in the garage unused for weeks at a time, I'm quite happy that it might be off the road for a few weeks/months waiting a fix for a strange issue, and I think that is the case for most people who buy old cars with large engines, half the fun is fixing the odd issue and trying to get them back to full working order (mine has a way to go!)

fuel stations also supply and demand - i don't think there are huge margins in running one, so even if demand drops say 20% you'll likely start seeing them drop off, and it's going to be a lot more than that in 10 year's time when most mass transport is EV.

They won't go away, there will just be less - adding to the hassle factor, also hurting demand.

It's going to get more expensive, need a bit more determination, and become more of a hobby - but on the bright side, no way will classic car values continue to increase as they have done year on year for so long, at some point a whole lot of cool stuff is going to be much more affordable....

[Lil_Red_GTV]

KarlMac said:

KTMsm said:

Lil_Red_GTV said:

A silent Elise could be fun

In what way would a quieter car be more fun ?

The main reason I like V8s is the noise they make - a V8 Elise, now that would be fun !

Wasn’t the first Tesla roadster a silent Elise and categorically not fun?

I didn't say a silent Elise would be MORE fun. I said it could (still) be fun. In the same way that downhill mountain biking, surfing, and other things without engines are still fun. Do V8's sound good? Yes - I've had 3 (although the A8 4.2 was a bit meh sound-wise). Is putting them in more new cars an option? No (unless you are a climate change denier). It's classics or nothing in the future if you want a V8.

That could bode well for values of big engines (I hope so, for the sake of my own 3.0 V6 GTV), but the point I was making was that people will probably have their heads turned by other cars that haven't even been dreamed up yet. I've no idea what the electric sports cars of the next ten years will be like, but I'd be surprised if all the world's engineers and designers can't come up with anything that gets enthusiasts at least a little bit excited. EVs are just at the start of their development, after all.

A lot of people might say that they are "ICE 4eva", but a few years of big bills at a backstreet mechanic on a 10 year old ICE that is costing a FORTUNE in tax to run and suddenly that shiny new 2029 Electric Alfa Spider (or whatever) on PCP will start to look more appealing (unless its speed limited, perhaps).

I still think there will be a place for classic ICE, but I reckon a lot of people, including many self-professed petrolheads, will be converted in the next 10 years or so, leaving ICE as a popular but still quite niche hobby.

[KTMsm]

Lil_Red_GTV said:

I didn't say a silent Elise would be MORE fun. I said it could (still) be fun.

In the same way that downhill mountain biking, surfing, and other things without engines are still fun.

Ah - that's where we disagree

I went snow boarding for a week and I thought it was ok, on the last day we hired some snow mobiles - I had more fun in 30 minutes than I'd had all week

If it hasn't got an engine then it isn't much fun for me

[rallycross]

cerb4.5lee said:

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

It'll be taxed to buggery though.

Agree with this. I only have a 3.7 litre V6 in the 370Z, and that already costs 630 a year to tax.

Me too have a 370 GT that have probably done less than 2,000 miles in 2.5 years.
Don’t want to sell it but hardly drive it and getting taxed £600 plus for what exactly ?!

[dreamcracker]

rallycross said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

It'll be taxed to buggery though.

Agree with this. I only have a 3.7 litre V6 in the 370Z, and that already costs 630 a year to tax.

Me too have a 370 GT that have probably done less than 2,000 miles in 2.5 years.
Don’t want to sell it but hardly drive it and getting taxed 600 plus for what exactly ?!

This, I think is why removing VED and putting all the tax on fuel will never happen.

A lot of people will start buying old gas guzzlers which is against current environmental policies.

Who is going to buy an electric car, when you could buy an old V8 powered vehicle for a fraction of the cost, and not have to pay annual VED.

[AC43]

Alex_225 said:

AC43 said:

Alex_225 said:

I'd love to think that my CLS63 will remain interesting, it's a good looking four seater car with a 500bhp 6.2 V8. That engine stood out at the time it was brand new and more so as it ages and engines shrink by the year.

I think a lot of the AMG's will remain in demand. They're build around some epic engines - the 55k being one, the 6.2 that followed it being another. Halo engines in halo models.

I'd love to think so. I mean it's one of the reasons I bought mine in the first place and would love to run one as a daily car too. Both the 5.5 super charged and 6.2 N/A engines are pretty epic. Plus they have been in the SLR and SLS so even based on those two cars, it makes them quite something!

I've noticed that decent C43's go for good wedge these days.

I've also been tracking SL55's; again, good ones are also on the up.

But I'm not a convertible fan, so the CLS is the the next obvious place for the 55/63 experience. For me, anyway.

I've run the odd search and, again, the very best ones seem to be holding up nicely.

[Jamescrs]

PTF said:

This is partly what persuaded me to sell my M2. Fear of heavy depreciation thanks to the impact of higher domestic energy costs, particularly this autumn/winter, alongside the rise in fuel prices.

But what was the final nail in the coffin was the release of the new M2 with a manual gearbox.

I'm so fed up with motoring journalists offering badly disguised financial advice in the form of "the last of the breed" and "snap one up while you can".

The 130i was hailed as "the last of the 6 cylinder petrol RWD cars with a manual gearbox".

Then the M135i came along, and that received the same.

Then the M2, which i remember thinking must be the pinnacle of the 6 cylinder RWD layout, and still having a manual box!

Then the M2 comp was produced, and everyone said that would be the absolutely last, final, peak, best iteration of 6 cylinder RWD cars. The next will DEFINITELY be a 4 pot.

Then the new M240i was announced with....you guessed it, 6 cylinders and RWD.

And the new M2 is coming along with a manual box still, despite the warnings of that not being an option.

I give up.

There's many people who argue that manual gearboxes are obsolete and 6 cylinder engines are obsolete but there is still a huge market for them, I recently came back from the Nürburgring and you can't move for M2's, M240's (last gen) M140's and people are just shrugging at high powered Porsches again with 6 cylinder engines and manual gearboxes because they are so common over there they don't stand out after a while.

That must be noticed by BMW who have a massive testing centre literally down the road from the track so I think while there's still that demand BMW will keep going with the formula (at least I hope they do).

[300bhp/ton]

AC43 said:

I've noticed that decent C43's go for good wedge these days.

I've also been tracking SL55's; again, good ones are also on the up.

But I'm not a convertible fan, so the CLS is the the next obvious place for the 55/63 experience. For me, anyway.

I've run the odd search and, again, the very best ones seem to be holding up nicely.

Prices in general are a bit weird at the moment though. All cars, even crappy white goods ones are holding money well or even appreciated. All due to COVID, lockdown, chip shortage, etc.

I can't see it lasting longer term though.

[Alex_225]

AC43 said:

Alex_225 said:

AC43 said:

Alex_225 said:

I'd love to think that my CLS63 will remain interesting, it's a good looking four seater car with a 500bhp 6.2 V8. That engine stood out at the time it was brand new and more so as it ages and engines shrink by the year.

I think a lot of the AMG's will remain in demand. They're build around some epic engines - the 55k being one, the 6.2 that followed it being another. Halo engines in halo models.

I'd love to think so. I mean it's one of the reasons I bought mine in the first place and would love to run one as a daily car too. Both the 5.5 super charged and 6.2 N/A engines are pretty epic. Plus they have been in the SLR and SLS so even based on those two cars, it makes them quite something!

I've noticed that decent C43's go for good wedge these days.

I've also been tracking SL55's; again, good ones are also on the up.

But I'm not a convertible fan, so the CLS is the the next obvious place for the 55/63 experience. For me, anyway.

I've run the odd search and, again, the very best ones seem to be holding up nicely.

Yes there's definitely some strong prices out there, modern AMGs or like you say some of the older ones. Low mileage SL55s seem to be up for some serious money, £30-40kish.

I think the saloons have probably bottomed out and started to creep up. The E55/63s dipped towad the £10k mark, maybe just below in some cases. There's not loads for sale at any one time and prices vary massively depending on mileage. I paid £21k for my '07 CLS63 with very low miles. It's not yet ticked over 18k and probably worth what I paid for it at least.

[cidered77]

it's just beyond all common sense to me that values can possibly stay this inflated if you look over a 5-10+ year period.

We know from things like even the chip shortage, or the bog-roll shortage (or even the October 2021 petrol crisis) that it doesn't take big shifts in supply or demand to tip things over.... and if i look at the compounding effect of taxation, convenience, hassle factor to keep them running and fuelled, lower interest in cars with the kids (not the Max Power generation most of us grew up with) and potentially even shifts in public perception (kids going from "wow a supercar" to "ewww, a horrible polluting machine") you have some big factors pulling demand down, only offset by people's determination to maintain the NA and analogue experience.

I am going to treat my ICE cars as a hobby, that will cost money and time. Vs today, where i can kid myself it's a hobby that really doesn't cost much or even may make money because of re-sale values.

And like everyone else, even the most ardent grumpy middle aged man who forms opinions with memes - at some point in the next 5-15 years my boring driving will be done in an EV...

Edited by cidered77 on Wednesday 25th May 10:53

[Steamer]

cidered77 said:

it's just beyond all common sense to me that values can possibly stay this inflated if you look over a 5-10+ year period.

We know from things like even the chip shortage, or the bog-roll shortage (or even the October 2021 petrol crisis) that it doesn't take big shifts in supply or demand to tip things over.... and if i look at the compounding effect of taxation, convenience, hassle factor to keep them running and fuelled, lower interest in cars with the kids (not the Max Power generation most of us grew up with) and potentially even shifts in public perception (kids going from "wow a supercar" to "ewww, a horrible polluting machine") you have some big factors pulling demand down, only offset by people's determination to maintain the NA and analogue experience.

I am going to treat my ICE cars as a hobby, that will cost money and time. Vs today, where i can kid myself it's a hobby that really doesn't cost much or even may make money because of re-sale values.

And like everyone else, even the most ardent grumpy middle aged man who forms opinions with memes - at some point in the next 5-15 years my boring driving will be done in an EV...

Edited by cidered77 on Wednesday 25th May 10:53

But - on the flipside, I'd say those in the market for 'big engines' (probably as 2nd / 3rd / fun cars) won't feel those effects quite as hard.

... Also if you told me 15 / 20 years ago a MK2 Escort RS2000 would (granted, not a big engine.. but at the time not lot more than 'consumer white-goods car, with stickers & sport seats) command £25K+ I would have laughed... and now cried.

[AC43]

cidered77 said:

it's just beyond all common sense to me that values can possibly stay this inflated if you look over a 5-10+ year period.

We know from things like even the chip shortage, or the bog-roll shortage (or even the October 2021 petrol crisis) that it doesn't take big shifts in supply or demand to tip things over.... and if i look at the compounding effect of taxation, convenience, hassle factor to keep them running and fuelled, lower interest in cars with the kids (not the Max Power generation most of us grew up with) and potentially even shifts in public perception (kids going from "wow a supercar" to "ewww, a horrible polluting machine") you have some big factors pulling demand down, only offset by people's determination to maintain the NA and analogue experience.

I am going to treat my ICE cars as a hobby, that will cost money and time. Vs today, where i can kid myself it's a hobby that really doesn't cost much or even may make money because of re-sale values.

And like everyone else, even the most ardent grumpy middle aged man who forms opinions with memes - at some point in the next 5-15 years my boring driving will be done in an EV...

Edited by cidered77 on Wednesday 25th May 10:53

LOL. When I told my kids proudly that I'd dodged an ULEZ bullet by avoiding a diesel and instead going from a 5.0 to a 5.5 petrol they were borderline horrified.

Kids, eh?