RE: 2022 Cupra Born VZ3 | PH Review
Discussion
Welshbeef said:
And rather than 40k you can buy the i3 from 10k…
I've had a look & I can't find an i3 for 10k. I drove a friend's i3 back in 2014. It was zippy, compact and well made. He hated it. Max 70 mile range, awkward dropping their kids off with those back doors, and a very noisy range extender (that didn't add a great deal of range). I agree it was "of its time" but it's off the pace now. Missy Charm said:
The greater likelihood is that battery cars will be priced off the road. A relatively significant fraction of an electric car's purchase price is raw materials, which is a cost that cannot be reduced. The bottom line is that a battery needs a specific quantity of lithium or cobalt or whatever in it to work effectively; no lithium no battery, if you will, so it has to be bought. Raw materials are getting more expensive, computer chips are getting more expensive and inflation is relatively high.
Todays 40,000 electric car might be 45,000 next year and 50,000 the year after that. We're talking quite serious money here for the equivalent of an average family hatchback. In the past that would have been ameliorated by a surfeit of cheap credit, but the economic points already alluded to are also causing lenders to draw their horns in. Interest rates are likely to rise, after all.
Petrol cars can be made cheaper. Regulations can be relaxed, safety and emissions controls equipment can be stripped out; making something like an old Mini is cheap. Electric cars can be made cheaper up to a point, but beyond that savings become incredibly hard to make; the batteries are expensive and they can't be made out of anything else. They may be left high and dry as a result.
As someone who has personally spent the last 30 odd years specifying, designing, calibrating, developing and testing passenger cars of all kinds (from a 60 bhp rover streetwise to the 900 bhp Mclaren P1, i can catagorically tell you that that ^^^ is total and absolute bobbins!Todays 40,000 electric car might be 45,000 next year and 50,000 the year after that. We're talking quite serious money here for the equivalent of an average family hatchback. In the past that would have been ameliorated by a surfeit of cheap credit, but the economic points already alluded to are also causing lenders to draw their horns in. Interest rates are likely to rise, after all.
Petrol cars can be made cheaper. Regulations can be relaxed, safety and emissions controls equipment can be stripped out; making something like an old Mini is cheap. Electric cars can be made cheaper up to a point, but beyond that savings become incredibly hard to make; the batteries are expensive and they can't be made out of anything else. They may be left high and dry as a result.
1) OEs are prediciting that a BEV is soon going to be cheaper to make than a comparable ICE. This is because economies of scale kick in as BEV volumes increase (and of course ICE volumes fall so they loose the EOS advantage too!) and because BEVs are intrinsically both highly parallel and highly scalable. For example exactly the same battery module, inverter phase section or motor laminate stack can be used across a wide range of different products and higher spec models simply have more of them (which further drives EOS leverages)
2) An ICE is not made of air, it also is made of a lot of high grade materials. Increased costs in production and logistics will drive up ICE costs by a similar amount to that which they drive up BEV costs. You can't make a modern ICE without expensive rare earth minerals anymore than you can make a BEV without them. "computer chips getting more expensive" hits every car the same ICE or BEV for example
3) "stripping out emissions controls" Er, no, this is not happen, any more than a stripping out of say airbags, seat belts, ABS brakes or any other complex but important system on a modern car. In fact, as BEVs gain an ever increasing market share, and people become used to zero tailpipe emissions as a norm, anything with a tailpipe is going to get heavily penalised and legislated against.
BFleming said:
Welshbeef said:
And rather than 40k you can buy the i3 from 10k…
I've had a look & I can't find an i3 for 10k. I drove a friend's i3 back in 2014. It was zippy, compact and well made. He hated it. Max 70 mile range, awkward dropping their kids off with those back doors, and a very noisy range extender (that didn't add a great deal of range). I agree it was "of its time" but it's off the pace now. Water Fairy said:
So is it 0-60 in six a a bit seconds or 7.3? Which is it? Not that it actually makes a difference with this awful creation but confusing/contradictory facts annoy me.
Er, both. In it's most powerful guise (230ps e-Boost) it does it in 6.6 seconds. The model tested (204ps) does it in 7.3 seconds.Welshbeef said:
Cobracc said:
How are cars like this 'green' in any way, shape or form....?!
We really are living in a fking clown world right now.
They are emission free no pollution out the exhaust. No cancers in the lungs. We really are living in a fking clown world right now.
How is ICE a fking clown world?
Cobracc said:
Welshbeef said:
Cobracc said:
How are cars like this 'green' in any way, shape or form....?!
We really are living in a fking clown world right now.
They are emission free no pollution out the exhaust. No cancers in the lungs. We really are living in a fking clown world right now.
How is ICE a fking clown world?
If you dislike it fine I don’t like the G Wizz I think it looks like a Mr Bean car.
Jon_S_Rally said:
I think you're probably right sadly. It's going to take some time of course, but I do think the idea that petrolheads are going to be allowed to enjoy their ICE cars forever is rather fanciful. If we are allowed to drive them, they will be so expensive to run that most won't be able to afford it.
The problem is that the masses are sleepwalking in to this without having the faintest idea what the "Elites" have in store for them. It's funny how it's all the billionaires telling ordinary people they'll be forced into this and that and that they'll "have to accept" reductions to their quality of life. WhyOne said:
Max_Torque said:
....... i can catagorically tell you that that ^^^ is total and absolute bobbins!
....
This was my very strong suspicion.....
Thank you for taking the time to provide such an eloquent and authoritative explanation.
I agree that you can't make a modern car without all of the expensive and rare metals, but you can make an old fashioned one. The only thing stopping you is legislation and legislation can be changed. Legislation is being changed, in fact, all over the place. If food standards can be rolled back, emissions regulations sure as Hell can too...
Missy Charm said:
Sadly it's a little wide of the mark, and he fails entirely to engage with the point about raw materials costs.
I agree that you can't make a modern car without all of the expensive and rare metals, but you can make an old fashioned one. The only thing stopping you is legislation and legislation can be changed. Legislation is being changed, in fact, all over the place. If food standards can be rolled back, emissions regulations sure as Hell can too...
But why on earth would they.. it's never going to happen - especially not because of a few nutty conspiracy theories. You've just had an engineer who works on this day in and day out explain why you're wrong about the economics of ICE vs EVs. You could enjoy cars from the 1950s by moving to Cuba if you wanted and inhale leaded petrol all day should you choose. But this path for the western world will not change course; every major economy has an ICE ban, increasingly strict emissions and safety standards for a very good reason that no sane politician is going to deviate.I agree that you can't make a modern car without all of the expensive and rare metals, but you can make an old fashioned one. The only thing stopping you is legislation and legislation can be changed. Legislation is being changed, in fact, all over the place. If food standards can be rolled back, emissions regulations sure as Hell can too...
The id3 or this Born etc clearly visually have to be compared against the latest golf and Leon.
Taking the golf as an example it’s generally a bland looking car. Is it better looking than an id3? I think so but not massively so.
Same with the Born I’d say it’s similar to that the Leon to me is externally visually marginally nicer but not much really in it.
Interior - I’ve not seen a new shape Golf or Leon so cannot compare , however the Born seats were lovely and I didn’t have any dislike of its interior at all.
Performance - not driven it so don’t know. The stats seem ok
Taking the golf as an example it’s generally a bland looking car. Is it better looking than an id3? I think so but not massively so.
Same with the Born I’d say it’s similar to that the Leon to me is externally visually marginally nicer but not much really in it.
Interior - I’ve not seen a new shape Golf or Leon so cannot compare , however the Born seats were lovely and I didn’t have any dislike of its interior at all.
Performance - not driven it so don’t know. The stats seem ok
Missy Charm said:
WhyOne said:
Max_Torque said:
....... i can catagorically tell you that that ^^^ is total and absolute bobbins!
....
This was my very strong suspicion.....
Thank you for taking the time to provide such an eloquent and authoritative explanation.
I agree that you can't make a modern car without all of the expensive and rare metals, but you can make an old fashioned one. The only thing stopping you is legislation and legislation can be changed. Legislation is being changed, in fact, all over the place. If food standards can be rolled back, emissions regulations sure as Hell can too...
So you are suggesting the way forwards is backwards....using obsolete technologies to somehow keep things cheaper. In what world is this ever going to happen?
I'm no engineer, but even I can see how much simpler...in hardwear components at least...an EV is compared to a car, even a 20 year old car (I have one of these!) with an internal combustion engine.
OK, I'm sure that expensive materials are required for batteries and motors being used currently, but the billions being invested in research is, and will continue to, make these things more sustainable and yes, cheaper I am quite sure.
Edited by WhyOne on Wednesday 25th May 21:17
Max_Torque said:
what?
The i3 has a carbon chassis, is quicker to accelerate, consumes less energy per mile driven, and in my (quite extensive) experience is a far better drivers car thanks to weighing 373kg less (that's a lot btw) and having a lower CofG (that carbon tub) and having a chassis set up that is entertaining, dynamic and actually encorages you to throw and drift it around.
If anything the i3 still feels like a "next gen" passenger car to me despite being very nearly 10 years old now ;-)
Just a shame it looks like an old pram.The i3 has a carbon chassis, is quicker to accelerate, consumes less energy per mile driven, and in my (quite extensive) experience is a far better drivers car thanks to weighing 373kg less (that's a lot btw) and having a lower CofG (that carbon tub) and having a chassis set up that is entertaining, dynamic and actually encorages you to throw and drift it around.
If anything the i3 still feels like a "next gen" passenger car to me despite being very nearly 10 years old now ;-)
Welshbeef said:
What do you think happens? Road pricing pence per mile charge
Why do you suppose we’re getting all of these smart motorways and APNR being installed everywhere.
Indeed. EV owners shouldn't get used to low running costs, as they won't last. It's being let slide as governments try to increase EV uptake. Once sufficient numbers are in them, there'll be road pricing, or "special" tariffs for EV charging at home. They'll be every bit as expensive to run as an ICE car has been (it's just that ICE cars will get even more expensive).Why do you suppose we’re getting all of these smart motorways and APNR being installed everywhere.
Jon_S_Rally said:
Once sufficient numbers are in them, there'll be road pricing, or "special" tariffs for EV charging at home. They'll be every bit as expensive to run as an ICE car has been (it's just that ICE cars will get even more expensive).
So... electric cars won't be as cheap as now when tax rises come in, but will still be the cheaper option than an ICE car.I'm not sure what your argument is here, to be honest. It's not exactly a surprise that government will need to find revenue when tax from petrol and ICE cars tapers off. However, unless someone's going to become a pedestrian then the rational financial choice at that time will still be an electric vehicle. Those who wish to pay more for the fun/emotion (or because they use their vehicle for a niche purpose which won't be served by a BEV) can do so.
Road pricing has been in the wings since the Blair era.
Edited by blearyeyedboy on Thursday 26th May 09:39
Welshbeef said:
BFleming said:
Welshbeef said:
And rather than 40k you can buy the i3 from 10k…
I've had a look & I can't find an i3 for 10k. I drove a friend's i3 back in 2014. It was zippy, compact and well made. He hated it. Max 70 mile range, awkward dropping their kids off with those back doors, and a very noisy range extender (that didn't add a great deal of range). I agree it was "of its time" but it's off the pace now. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff