RE: 2022 Cupra Born VZ3 | PH Review
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
As someone who has personally spent the last 30 odd years specifying, designing, calibrating, developing and testing passenger cars of all kinds (from a 60 bhp rover streetwise to the 900 bhp Mclaren P1, i can catagorically tell you that that ^^^ is total and absolute bobbins!
1) OEs are prediciting that a BEV is soon going to be cheaper to make than a comparable ICE. This is because economies of scale kick in as BEV volumes increase (and of course ICE volumes fall so they loose the EOS advantage too!) and because BEVs are intrinsically both highly parallel and highly scalable. For example exactly the same battery module, inverter phase section or motor laminate stack can be used across a wide range of different products and higher spec models simply have more of them (which further drives EOS leverages)
2) An ICE is not made of air, it also is made of a lot of high grade materials. Increased costs in production and logistics will drive up ICE costs by a similar amount to that which they drive up BEV costs. You can't make a modern ICE without expensive rare earth minerals anymore than you can make a BEV without them. "computer chips getting more expensive" hits every car the same ICE or BEV for example
3) "stripping out emissions controls" Er, no, this is not happen, any more than a stripping out of say airbags, seat belts, ABS brakes or any other complex but important system on a modern car. In fact, as BEVs gain an ever increasing market share, and people become used to zero tailpipe emissions as a norm, anything with a tailpipe is going to get heavily penalised and legislated against.
It’s not bobbins…. There is a reason China/ tesla etc are trying to secure resources and that’s not because EV production is coming down nicely in price. As someone who has to watch commodity prices among others for a living you’re living a dream if you think those assets are getting cheaper or indeed going to.1) OEs are prediciting that a BEV is soon going to be cheaper to make than a comparable ICE. This is because economies of scale kick in as BEV volumes increase (and of course ICE volumes fall so they loose the EOS advantage too!) and because BEVs are intrinsically both highly parallel and highly scalable. For example exactly the same battery module, inverter phase section or motor laminate stack can be used across a wide range of different products and higher spec models simply have more of them (which further drives EOS leverages)
2) An ICE is not made of air, it also is made of a lot of high grade materials. Increased costs in production and logistics will drive up ICE costs by a similar amount to that which they drive up BEV costs. You can't make a modern ICE without expensive rare earth minerals anymore than you can make a BEV without them. "computer chips getting more expensive" hits every car the same ICE or BEV for example
3) "stripping out emissions controls" Er, no, this is not happen, any more than a stripping out of say airbags, seat belts, ABS brakes or any other complex but important system on a modern car. In fact, as BEVs gain an ever increasing market share, and people become used to zero tailpipe emissions as a norm, anything with a tailpipe is going to get heavily penalised and legislated against.
I know looks are perceptive but I prefer the look of the Cupra over the VW ID3.
But why cant car manufacturers learn or steal from Tesla - how does Tesla manage to put all that technology in their cars with the same size and still have a pretty much huge Frunk vs mostly no Frunk at all??
But why cant car manufacturers learn or steal from Tesla - how does Tesla manage to put all that technology in their cars with the same size and still have a pretty much huge Frunk vs mostly no Frunk at all??
We had an i3, now have an ID3 and have a Cupra on order, but the longer range 77kwh battery version that gives us the range we want / need, c340 WLTP
The Cupra is a much much better steer than the ID3, and surprisingly nimble and agile, its no Type R but not many things are.
Its a well rounded car, looks great in the dark blue (Aurora i think its called) and the interiors ia huge step up from the ID3.
For 90% of our motoring needs its an ideal sporty'ish and smart wagon, for the other 10%. we have another car.
I love all the vitriol that comes out on any EV thread, makes me realise how many smallminded people live on PH, many of whom have never driven an EV for any real time and raraely have driven any pf the cars they hold strong negative opinions of.
Then again maybe I'm an oddity as I like Nissan Jukes !!!
The Cupra is a much much better steer than the ID3, and surprisingly nimble and agile, its no Type R but not many things are.
Its a well rounded car, looks great in the dark blue (Aurora i think its called) and the interiors ia huge step up from the ID3.
For 90% of our motoring needs its an ideal sporty'ish and smart wagon, for the other 10%. we have another car.
I love all the vitriol that comes out on any EV thread, makes me realise how many smallminded people live on PH, many of whom have never driven an EV for any real time and raraely have driven any pf the cars they hold strong negative opinions of.
Then again maybe I'm an oddity as I like Nissan Jukes !!!
Schwarzi666 said:
I know looks are perceptive but I prefer the look of the Cupra over the VW ID3.
But why cant car manufacturers learn or steal from Tesla - how does Tesla manage to put all that technology in their cars with the same size and still have a pretty much huge Frunk vs mostly no Frunk at all??
They're not the same size though, a Model 3 is nearly 40cm longer than an ID3/Born.... Plus, what is this "technology" you talk about in a Tesla?But why cant car manufacturers learn or steal from Tesla - how does Tesla manage to put all that technology in their cars with the same size and still have a pretty much huge Frunk vs mostly no Frunk at all??
blearyeyedboy said:
Jon_S_Rally said:
Once sufficient numbers are in them, there'll be road pricing, or "special" tariffs for EV charging at home. They'll be every bit as expensive to run as an ICE car has been (it's just that ICE cars will get even more expensive).
So... electric cars won't be as cheap as now when tax rises come in, but will still be the cheaper option than an ICE car.I'm not sure what your argument is here, to be honest. It's not exactly a surprise that government will need to find revenue when tax from petrol and ICE cars tapers off. However, unless someone's going to become a pedestrian then the rational financial choice at that time will still be an electric vehicle. Those who wish to pay more for the fun/emotion (or because they use their vehicle for a niche purpose which won't be served by a BEV) can do so.
Road pricing has been in the wings since the Blair era.
Edited by blearyeyedboy on Thursday 26th May 09:39
TX.
Tragic
How can they market the 204bhp one as a hot hatch when that’s the cooking model in the ID3 and why does the front end look like it’s been pre crashed?
Speed is easy in a EV, I think they need to move away from sport models and invest more in long range models. The standard power of Evs is enough to satisfy most people who buy a hot hatch aka for doing standing starts and weaving though traffic
Leave proper drivers hot hatches to petrol for now until they can actually make a fiesta sized EV viable and fun
How can they market the 204bhp one as a hot hatch when that’s the cooking model in the ID3 and why does the front end look like it’s been pre crashed?
Speed is easy in a EV, I think they need to move away from sport models and invest more in long range models. The standard power of Evs is enough to satisfy most people who buy a hot hatch aka for doing standing starts and weaving though traffic
Leave proper drivers hot hatches to petrol for now until they can actually make a fiesta sized EV viable and fun
Nickbrapp said:
Tragic
How can they market the 204bhp one as a hot hatch when that’s the cooking model in the ID3 and why does the front end look like it’s been pre crashed?
Speed is easy in a EV, I think they need to move away from sport models and invest more in long range models. The standard power of Evs is enough to satisfy most people who buy a hot hatch aka for doing standing starts and weaving though traffic
Leave proper drivers hot hatches to petrol for now until they can actually make a fiesta sized EV viable and fun
You don’t like it that’s fine- why the attitude against the front which is designed for pedestrian increased safety?How can they market the 204bhp one as a hot hatch when that’s the cooking model in the ID3 and why does the front end look like it’s been pre crashed?
Speed is easy in a EV, I think they need to move away from sport models and invest more in long range models. The standard power of Evs is enough to satisfy most people who buy a hot hatch aka for doing standing starts and weaving though traffic
Leave proper drivers hot hatches to petrol for now until they can actually make a fiesta sized EV viable and fun
They cannot leave ICE for now as they have to be no more ICE from 2030.
Welshbeef said:
You don’t like it that’s fine- why the attitude against the front which is designed for pedestrian increased safety?
The majority of head trauma to pedestrians in collisions results from impact with engine components after the bonnet buckles. This EV doesn't have an engine there, so why does it have a front-end design that mimics an ICE? I'd expect an EV to have a very low front bonnet end so that it minimises pelvic damage whilst still allowing the pedestrian to fall onto the 'bonnet' which would be designed to buckle in such a way as to prevent the pedestrian sliding forward I to the road once the car decelerates.
Clivey said:
Jon_S_Rally said:
I think you're probably right sadly. It's going to take some time of course, but I do think the idea that petrolheads are going to be allowed to enjoy their ICE cars forever is rather fanciful. If we are allowed to drive them, they will be so expensive to run that most won't be able to afford it.
The problem is that the masses are sleepwalking in to this without having the faintest idea what the "Elites" have in store for them. 
SidewaysSi said:
Muddle238 said:
Car design has become such a mess. It seems to be all about squeezing in as much pretend aero and aggressive fakery as possible; fake vents, angry creases, plastic everywhere. There is no coherence to the design, no elegance and no style. Nobody would look at this and think "yeah, this will stand the test of time", you know they'll revise it in three years' time and then another three they'll have started from scratch again. Pass.
I feel sorry for the engineers who have to make this sort of crap.What a soul destroying job it must be if you actually have any interest in cars and driving.
May as well give up (on life).
Auto design really has reached an all time low now. Boredom on wheels.
Schwarzi666 said:
I know looks are perceptive but I prefer the look of the Cupra over the VW ID3.
But why cant car manufacturers learn or steal from Tesla - how does Tesla manage to put all that technology in their cars with the same size and still have a pretty much huge Frunk vs mostly no Frunk at all??
I’ve only seen 1 Id3 in the flesh and parked up - it was in a flat grey colour the front didn’t do it for me, the rear is better than the front by a touch. The side certainly it’s best angle in that colour. But why cant car manufacturers learn or steal from Tesla - how does Tesla manage to put all that technology in their cars with the same size and still have a pretty much huge Frunk vs mostly no Frunk at all??
Now the Born Cupra I saw in the show room. Vs the id3 and in the better colour and I’ve no idea if the id3 I saw was top of the range or bottom.
If strictly in looks and between these two I’d choose the Born Cupra no question.
Would I choose to buy a new born Cupra for £40k?
Answer —— no Of I had to change my C63 Wagon I’d top the budget up to £40k and buy a C8 RS6 or a 4,0 TT S8 and a £15 k BMW i3.
Or the best used Caterham I could get and then a Skoda Greenline 2 £3k.
Or an X5 M
Or a Golf R and SMax £20k each.
Or latest shape BMW M5 if they are at that level.
Or £40k down and then loan up to £80k and get a Ferrari FXX/612.
Would I take a Born Cupra when it’s £10k ? Possibly.
FA57REN said:
Welshbeef said:
You don’t like it that’s fine- why the attitude against the front which is designed for pedestrian increased safety?
The majority of head trauma to pedestrians in collisions results from impact with engine components after the bonnet buckles. This EV doesn't have an engine there, so why does it have a front-end design that mimics an ICE? I'd expect an EV to have a very low front bonnet end so that it minimises pelvic damage whilst still allowing the pedestrian to fall onto the 'bonnet' which would be designed to buckle in such a way as to prevent the pedestrian sliding forward I to the road once the car decelerates.
Legform (upper & lower) make up 50% of the available EUNCAP points for the passive element of VRU with lower leg being the majority of that 50% (under 2023 protocol, to be fair).
So no, you don't really want a low front end.
Because your legs will snap.
Plus you need to balance that front end with your aero requirements. And since you still have a passenger compartment to contend with, you don't really want a massive step change from your low-slung front end as it'll disrupt the flow.
ETA: EUNCAP protocol dates
Edited by pti on Friday 27th May 08:52
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/27/new-...
Honestly I very much prefer this offering over the Born Cupra.
In fact granny DING DONG.
Honestly I very much prefer this offering over the Born Cupra.
In fact granny DING DONG.
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