cyclists at night

[MrTrilby]

saaby93 said:

he walls are fine unless youve seen some stats to say otherwise.

You're right to question what a sporting cyclist training, travelling at 25 to 30mph would use though - is it just something that happens in Britain?

No. The rest of Europe has a much more tolerant attitude towards sharing the road safely. In Spain HGVs slow down and pass you leaving plenty of space, even on arrow straight roads. Rather than try and squeeze by at full speed.

[saaby93]

MrTrilby said:

saaby93 said:

he walls are fine unless youve seen some stats to say otherwise.

You're right to question what a sporting cyclist training, travelling at 25 to 30mph would use though - is it just something that happens in Britain?

No. The rest of Europe has a much more tolerant attitude towards sharing the road safely. In Spain HGVs slow down and pass you leaving plenty of space, even on arrow straight roads. Rather than try and squeeze by at full speed.

Is it more tolerant all round?
The people in that photo arent dressed up in full cycling kit to go out for a bike ride

[saaby93]

smn159 said:

Exoticlover said:

Willing to take the bait (am a cyclist myself):

Many cyclists nowadays have an exaggerated sense of entitlement, of being on the "right" side of the world, because climate and all. Therefore some believe that right of way, safety measures etc only apply to the "weaker" traffic participants (= pedestrians walking to their parked ICE car) or "stronger" (cars). Some show a bit of an urban robin rood attitude, combined with Karenism and other vices of the modern world.

I recognise (almost) all of those words, but the order in which they've been used is unusual to say the least.

Possibly another anti cycle rant, but who knows?

1/10

Why do some people have to try to turn anything someone says into a so called anti cycling rant?
Are their brains programmed into only two modes pro or anti whereas for most people those are the ends of the scale where for the most part everyone gets on with things

[smn159]

saaby93 said:

smn159 said:

Exoticlover said:

Willing to take the bait (am a cyclist myself):

Many cyclists nowadays have an exaggerated sense of entitlement, of being on the "right" side of the world, because climate and all. Therefore some believe that right of way, safety measures etc only apply to the "weaker" traffic participants (= pedestrians walking to their parked ICE car) or "stronger" (cars). Some show a bit of an urban robin rood attitude, combined with Karenism and other vices of the modern world.

I recognise (almost) all of those words, but the order in which they've been used is unusual to say the least.

Possibly another anti cycle rant, but who knows?

1/10

Why do some people have to try to turn anything someone says into a so called anti cycling rant?
Are their brains programmed into only two modes pro or anti whereas for most people those are the ends of the scale where for the most part everyone gets on with things

Did you read it?

"Exaggerated sense of entitlement"
"Climate and all"
"Safety measures etc only apply to..."
"Urban Robin Rood (sic) attitude"
"Karenism"

It's over emotive gibberish

[MrTrilby]

saaby93 said:

MrTrilby said:

saaby93 said:

he walls are fine unless youve seen some stats to say otherwise.

You're right to question what a sporting cyclist training, travelling at 25 to 30mph would use though - is it just something that happens in Britain?

No. The rest of Europe has a much more tolerant attitude towards sharing the road safely. In Spain HGVs slow down and pass you leaving plenty of space, even on arrow straight roads. Rather than try and squeeze by at full speed.

Is it more tolerant all round?
The people in that photo arent dressed up in full cycling kit to go out for a bike ride

I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking. If you’re asking whether cyclists in Europe are treated differently depending on whether they are dressed “socially” or “sporting” then no, very much not in my experience. My experience of cycling in Europe whether dressed in lycra out on faster roads or going out in town in regular clothes is that you get treated with courtesy and respect - it’s a much more pleasant place to cycle than a UK road.

Cyclists are just people like you and me, and in Europe that’s how they are treated, rather than constantly demonised.

[oldagepensioner]

monthou said:

Gweeds said:

If drivers were given the stty infrastructure most cyclists are offered they’d lose their fking minds.

The same ones who lose their fking minds at being held up for 20 seconds behind a cyclist and then sit in traffic for 15 minutes.

The same ones who want to legislate cyclists off the road and into cycle lanes 'for safety'.

Surely to legislate cyclists off the roads the cycle paths have to be there in the first place.As far as shared paths go whilst not ideal from ether a pedestrian or cyclists point of view they are normally fairly wide and clearly marked and surely a better bet than sharing the road with any thing from motorcycles to 44 tonne trucks 8 wheelers and everything in between.

[MrTrilby]

oldagepensioner said:

As far as shared paths go whilst not ideal from ether a pedestrian or cyclists point of view they are normally fairly wide and clearly marked and surely a better bet than sharing the road with any thing from motorcycles to 44 tonne trucks 8 wheelers and everything in between.

No, they’re not a better bet. It doesn’t sound like you’ve used many cycle paths much?

The number of shared use paths that are wide enough to let two cycles and a pedestrian pass is tiny. The number that are wide enough that don’t force cycles to stop frequently and give way to blind driveways or side roads is tinier still - and in my experience cycle paths with driveways crossing them are plain dangerous - most cars think nothing of sticking their nose out of their driveway and across the path/cycleway *before* looking. Which is avoidable if you’re travelling at walking speed. Very much not at 15mph.

Then take that tiny number of suitable cycle paths and cross off the list those that make it hard to join or leave and you have very very few paths. Most are very poorly designed in the UK - they’re built using limited cash and time, so usually when the planners reach a tricky junction that needs remodelling or some thought to make it work, the path just stops. And the cyclist is expected to come to a stop again and work out how to rejoin the road. Or do daft stuff like navigate a roundabout by having to stop at every turning and wait for the pedestrian crossing to go green before continuing. I’ve used a cycle path that expected you to do that 6 times. Or stay in the road and experience a two sets of lights with the cars.

It shouldn’t really be a surprise that more experienced cyclists are wary of most cycle paths.

[vikingaero]

In London, many of the people on black bikes, in black clothing, with no lights are are either kids, recreational pharma delivery riders, or kids delivering recreational pharma

[MrTrilby]

And even then, the very best shared use cycle path is only suitable for the slowest of cyclists. Expecting pedestrians with small children to share a path with cyclists going 20-25mph simply isn’t reasonable or safe - you’re effectively forcing pedestrians to walk in a road with 25mph traffic.

Hence why most faster cyclists will avoid busy shared use paths and stick to the road.

[J4CKO]

Exoticlover said:

Willing to take the bait (am a cyclist myself):

Many cyclists nowadays have an exaggerated sense of entitlement, of being on the "right" side of the world, because climate and all. Therefore some believe that right of way, safety measures etc only apply to the "weaker" traffic participants (= pedestrians walking to their parked ICE car) or "stronger" (cars). Some show a bit of an urban robin rood attitude, combined with Karenism and other vices of the modern world.

Hmm, "exaggerated sense of entitlement", in what way ? I think some may do but that will pervade their entire existence and may be the same folk that drive in a similar manner ?

I think also, drivers feel car > bike but the legislation and highway code doesn't reflect that, there is a feeling that they pay to use the roads (most, not all do) and cyclists dont so they deserve nothing. A lot wonder why anyone would ride a bike if they have a motor car, they dont get it, very much a demographic thing as a lot of cyclists are white, middle class and male.

In some cases it may look like something on the road is arrogant and selfish, but a lot of the folk interpreting a cyclists actions haven't ridden a bike in forty years, for example on a country lane locally I pull out a bit nearer the middle of the road if a car is behind me to dissuade overtakes, sometimes drivers feel they have to squeeze past despite there not being room. So what happens is you then get the overtaking car in conflict with the car inevitably coming the other way and the standard response is to swing out of its way. So this isn't arrogance, its bitter experience and doesnt always work as sometimes they go anyway being petulant, and seemingly use the force to check if anything is coming.

The stakes are higher on a bike, some cyclists dont realise this, but most do so sometimes you have to be assertive and direct to remain as safe as you can, in a car you can have a fairly big accident and walk away, on a bike a minor one can end up with you disabled or dead. I keep that to a minimum and save it for when its really needed, some dont, you get "road captains" in cars as well, so bound to get the odd one on a bike.

Sometimes, at speed on a bike you have a lot of wind and road noise, might not be arrogance, just might not have heard you, and most bikes dont have a rear view mirror, could easily be misconstrued as ignorance or arrogance.

I think also there is a safety in numbers thing, get a group together and they feel less vulnerable and more emboldened, seen it on group rides and I dont like it, hence why 90 percent of my rides are solo, and if not, largely in single file. I am perhaps a bit over compensating not to fit that stereotype, riding along chatting, swigging from bottles and ignoring the queue they are causing, sorry but thats just aholes who are the main ones causing anti cyclist animosity. If you are slower, sometimes you need to pay some consideration to those behind, pull in and have a quick drink then move off again and dont worry about your bloody Strava times.

As for eco smugness, all my mates who ride have cars, mainly performance cars and we dont sit around discussing climate matters, bikes are for exercise (plus the enjoyment) and some utility uses, not to save the planet. Its a bit like people project this same thing onto EV drivers yet by and large its the efficiency, image of say a Tesla, stonking acceleration and advantageous BIK that attracts them most. Sure there are some eco zealots who ride bikes, dont own a car and whatever but the vast majority of cyclists tend to also own a car and have no environmental agenda above and beyond anyone else. My environmental agenda is more about being annoyed by all the lovely litter you see lining roads.

Also, is it the cyclist that is smug in a lot of these situations, or just that the person is the car is reminded seeing a person on a bike that they haven't done any exercise since 1997 which rankles a bit ?

Its difficult to concentrate on "Smug mode" when you are concentrating on not getting splattered a lot of the time.

[KaraK]

CheesecakeRunner said:

KaraK said:

Thanks for actually answering my question like a human being (i.e. with more than a one-word answer!)

You'll have to forgive my lay-knowledge - the only "competitive" cyclists I've known were some of those ironman nutters and they used turbo trainers and velodromes to train on so I'm guessing they have different needs?

I wonder if there's a business opportunity for the various UK race tracks? No pesky noise complaints so they can run on days when they aren't allowed to run track days or motorsport (and for longer hours and minimal operating cost!), plus a nice safe environment to train in for the cyclist. Again, apologies if that's horribly naive, not my area of expertise.

Some of the motor racing tracks do cycling events. And there are also some purpose built cycling tracks used for criterium racing. But that’s all they’re really suitable for. Road races are too long to run anywhere other than roads.

I saw your other post about comparing it to marathons. I’ve also run several of those, as well as being an EA running coach. Every member of my club trains for marathons on the road. Train in the environment you’re going to race produces the best results.

I’ve also done Ironman. With that I did a lot of cycle training on a turbo. Not because it was the best place but because it meant the most efficient use of time. When you’re trying to fit 15 to 20 hours of training into the week, you end up doing rides at very odd hours and sometimes it’s easier just to sit on the turbo with a couple of movies on. But it doesn’t replicate the road by any stretch.

I'm not sure I quite understand the length argument, after all other races (motor and running) can cope on circuits just fine by doing more laps - but there's probably something I'm not aware of - in any event it's irrelevant as I see no problem having races on the roads. The only time I've ever objected was when I used to live somewhere where a local group ran "organised" time trials (I think) on a busy NSL A-road, (at rush hour no less!) but one example of idiocy does not invalidate a whole concept and I've seen far more well-run events than I've seen bad ones and from what I can tell as a layman closed or at the very least decently martialled roads are great race routes!

"Train in the environment you’re going to race" is great - except marathons aren't replicated by running on a road or pavement shared with others going about their business, it's a crap (IMO) substitute so I've only ever done it when I lacked access to better facilities at the time and I've generally come away from the experience unsatisfied. Sounds like the turbo for road cycling is like an erg is to rowing and has much same sub-optimal experience effect which sucks

[saaby93]

MrTrilby said:

And even then, the very best shared use cycle path is only suitable for the slowest of cyclists. Expecting pedestrians with small children to share a path with cyclists going 20-25mph simply isn’t reasonable or safe - you’re effectively forcing pedestrians to walk in a road with 25mph traffic.

Hence why most faster cyclists will avoid busy shared use paths and stick to the road.

Maybe make it like disability scooters with a 4mph limit on pavements ( I cant remember the number)

[KaraK]

911hope said:

Are you suggesting that faster cyclists should not be on the road?

Nope, not suggesting that at all.

911hope said:

Any idea how many velodromes there are?

No, because I don't do cycling as a sport. From what Cheesecake's told me they wouldn't be as useful as I previously though for some sport-cyclists in any event, but if more velodromes would be something you'd want then more power to you.

911hope said:

Perhaps cars should be restricted to the rolling roads in the MOT test centre?

Since people seem obsessed with claiming I'm calling for people to be restricted or to "go away" when I really, really haven't let me be crystal clear who I actually want to see less of on the roads - dheads. I don't give a flying fk whether someone's in a car, a van, a truck, a bus, on a push, motor or e- bike - as long as you aren't being a dick I've got no beef. Incredible as it might seem even though I might not do something I don't want someone who does to stop doing it, nor do I want them to have an unpleasant, let alone a dangerous time. dheads of all forms have the opposite effect. fk dheads.

Riding a push bike wearing dark clothing at night with no lights - dhead

Driving past a push bike giving 10 cm passing room - dhead

Riding an e-bike on a pavement at 35-30mph - dhead

Driving up a cyclist's chuff revving in your fartbox corsa trying to hurry them along - dhead

Negotiating turns in a van without checking your blind spots for cyclists - dhead

Pulling wheelies down the middle of an urban road on your bmx - dhead

Shouting abuse at cyclists because they've delayed you a few seconds - dhead

Overtaking cyclists round a blind bend or over a crest - dhead

Edited by KaraK on Tuesday 2nd August 11:05

[gazza285]

KaraK said:

The only time I've ever objected was when I used to live somewhere where a local group ran "organised" time trials (I think) on a busy NSL A-road, (at rush hour no less!)…

Nobody would run a time trial during rush hour, no licensing body would insure it, and you have no guarantee that competitors would make it to the start.

[saaby93]

MrTrilby said:

Cyclists are just people like you and me, and in Europe that’s how they are treated, rather than constantly demonised.

Aren't cyclists ( and motorists) only demonised in certain situations? Can it apply to pedestrians too?

[KaraK]

gazza285 said:

KaraK said:

The only time I've ever objected was when I used to live somewhere where a local group ran "organised" time trials (I think) on a busy NSL A-road, (at rush hour no less!)…

Nobody would run a time trial during rush hour, no licensing body would insure it, and you have no guarantee that competitors would make it to the start.

Pretty sure it was this lot:

https://www.kentvalley.co.uk/what-we-do/time-trial...

No idea whether it is/was licensed or insured or whatever - but certainly back when I lived there it was the most piss-poor, downright dangerous excuse for an "organised" event I've ever seen.

[Killboy]

911hope said:

You may need some more thinking. There isn't a network of single track roads that goes everywhere, or for that matter a multi-lane network that does the same.

And will bikes be allowed on other roads, under your plan?

Its not "my" plan. But yes - as all roads will be converted to have mandatory cycle infrastructure.

911hope said:

How will cars get to their houses, which could be on a single track road?

By bicycle

911hope said:

You will need to introduce teleportation for both classes of traffic to bridge the gaps.

Sounds feasible.

[heebeegeetee]

saaby93 said:

CheesecakeRunner said:

smn159 said:

Some of our European neighbours take a much more balanced view

Even that, though great as it is, is only suitable for leisure or basic transport.

A sporting cyclist training, travelling at 25 to 30mph would never be able to use it. The walls either side are dangerous for a start.

The walls are fine unless youve seen some stats to say otherwise.

You're right to question what a sporting cyclist training, travelling at 25 to 30mph would use though - is it just something that happens in Britain?

I'm a little familiar with the scenario in the pic, we take our bikes down to Spain and use and enjoy infra just like the pic. I an confirm that sports cyclists, in lycra and helmets, whizz by on the road, where they belong.

Too many British people are thick, and far too many British motorists are effing thick, imo, so the issue of cycle lanes will continue to baffle and antagonise no end of thick, MyWay Code adhering British drivers.

[saaby93]

heebeegeetee said:

saaby93 said:

CheesecakeRunner said:

smn159 said:

Some of our European neighbours take a much more balanced view

Even that, though great as it is, is only suitable for leisure or basic transport.

A sporting cyclist training, travelling at 25 to 30mph would never be able to use it. The walls either side are dangerous for a start.

The walls are fine unless youve seen some stats to say otherwise.

You're right to question what a sporting cyclist training, travelling at 25 to 30mph would use though - is it just something that happens in Britain?

I'm a little familiar with the scenario in the pic, we take our bikes down to Spain and use and enjoy infra just like the pic. I an confirm that sports cyclists, in lycra and helmets, whizz by on the road, where they belong.

Too many British people are thick, and far too many British motorists are effing thick, imo, so the issue of cycle lanes will continue to baffle and antagonise no end of thick, MyWay Code adhering British drivers.

and cyclists ( and include pedestrians if you like)

Whats it like over there in Utopia

[J4CKO]

saaby93 said:

MrTrilby said:

And even then, the very best shared use cycle path is only suitable for the slowest of cyclists. Expecting pedestrians with small children to share a path with cyclists going 20-25mph simply isn’t reasonable or safe - you’re effectively forcing pedestrians to walk in a road with 25mph traffic.

Hence why most faster cyclists will avoid busy shared use paths and stick to the road.

Maybe make it like disability scooters with a 4mph limit on pavements ( I cant remember the number)

Can get 4 or 8 mph ones, any decent cyclist moderates their speed around pedestrians, but not all cyclists are decent, some are just utter trumpets that happen to be on a bike, but those are the ones people take notice of, not the legions that quietly get on with it and dont knock grannies over in a pedestrian precincts.

I think it will get worse with E Bikes, especially the illegal types, more power, more weight and more speed and ridden by, in some cases folk who are focused on delivering fried chicken as fast as possible, Manchester had got as bad as New York for sketchy dudes on E Bikes riding in that devil may care, arent I cool ? way.

Then, as someone who rides a bike, you get tarred with that image that we all go round mowing pensioners down, running red lights and general mayhem, its a bit like picking the people featured on Traffic Cops and saying thats all drivers when some 19 year old herbert is pulled over stoned off his tits with no license, insurance, tax or MOT.