RE: The best used electric cars to buy right now
Discussion
All the cars on this list are too expensive. I mean it STARTS at £15k. That's partly a reflection of the screwed up used market, and ultra high demand for a limited number of EVs, but manufacturers need to get the finger out and start producing cheap EVs pronto, or be incentivised by the Government to do so. Instead the Government appears to be giving tax breaks to company car drivers who are buying Teslas and Taycans. It will be a long time before those can be picked up used for £5k. On the continent they seem to be doing a better job of helping the average joe buy an EV with decent grants etc.
My wife's leased e-up! costs £170 a month, is MUCH nicer and more fun to drive than any ICE city car I've ever driven, goes 150 miles on £10 of electricity, and saves us £100 a month in petrol. Sadly in the current market deals like that (which was just last year) appear to have evaporated, but hopefully they will return in a year or two, with a greater variety of models to choose from.
Part of the problem is some short-sighted folk look at this list and assume that that is it and all there ever will be, when of course manufacturers will fill out niches in the market (hot hatches, sports cars, convertibles) in time.
My wife's leased e-up! costs £170 a month, is MUCH nicer and more fun to drive than any ICE city car I've ever driven, goes 150 miles on £10 of electricity, and saves us £100 a month in petrol. Sadly in the current market deals like that (which was just last year) appear to have evaporated, but hopefully they will return in a year or two, with a greater variety of models to choose from.
Part of the problem is some short-sighted folk look at this list and assume that that is it and all there ever will be, when of course manufacturers will fill out niches in the market (hot hatches, sports cars, convertibles) in time.
ajap1979 said:
Cobnapint said:
ajap1979 said:
Cobnapint said:
ajap1979 said:
Cobnapint said:
And added to all that, it's not cheap anymore to charge an EV up, even at home.
Haha, I think plenty might disagree with that! I’m not on a particularly cheap tariff, but it only costs me £11 to fully charge my Polestar, and that will see me get 200+ miles. At the moment, £55 in my up! GTI gets me 250 miles. Anyway, now we know, at 26p/kWh and a charging time of say 10hrs on a 7.2kW home charger, that's about £18 isn't it?
Willing to be corrected.
61kWh battery
0.18625p / kWh
Long term average is 30.1kWh/100miles
DriveSnowdonia said:
Max_Torque said:
I will diss "flat eathers" not because of their politics but because they are "anti-science"
What is your definition of "anti-science"?Which is fine - it’s a free country - well it kinda used to be a free country..!
I used to stop responding - and generally I do a good job of not bothering… but on occasion the constant gaslighting and general scolding of people with the audacity to think that ICE’s are something that are not the ‘evil of all evils’ does get the better of me…. And responses come…
The poster says they are a freelance engineer, so I suppose unless their customers 100 percent buy in to their freelance solutions - they walk away do they - and earn nothing? I suspect not. Because nothing is completely binary here - there is much nuance.
The only thing that is binary - is if you have a view that differs on EV’s - then the insults come, ‘they have wasted their lives?’, ‘they are thick’ etc etc… it’s just so dull tbh… YOU ARE BAD…!!!
I was sat with CEO of an oil company last week, we were discussing how it’s taken the best part of 100 years to put today’s energy infrastructure in place - but now - that’s all ‘bad’ and must be purged by 2030? Lol - grow up…
I just wonder what these people are so scared of? If we are all doomed anyway (according to their hype!) then another couple of years isn’t gonna be the make or break period?
Or is it just that they have found a moral hill to stand and preach on - and by jimminy - that’s exactly what they are gonna do…!
Again, the site is called Pistonheads, not Batterybrains (C) so I am more than happy and will continue to support the thing I like - others are welcome - for sure, but if you want to nerd out and preach - go gather with your own nerd kind! I like nerding out here with mine, thanks…!
If the point of ev is driven by cost alone. Then surely 7yrs old cars for £15k with battery out of warranty doesn’t scream best value to me.
Buy a similar age petrol for 5k and take the 10k saving Without running the calculations I’d imagine you could run to near infinity before cost cross over.
Plus you don’t have a 12k battery that may need replaced at some point.
Buy a similar age petrol for 5k and take the 10k saving Without running the calculations I’d imagine you could run to near infinity before cost cross over.
Plus you don’t have a 12k battery that may need replaced at some point.
DriveSnowdonia said:
Elmariachi said:
Nice to see this kind of article appearing on here now, anyway - whether it’s the crazy price of fuel or the fires and heat that’s done it, hopefully people are waking up to the fact that they can’t just keep on selfishly driving polluting cars anymore without it having dire consequences.
Those who annoy me the most are the ones who can afford to buy what they like and still choose a brand new Range Rover over a BMW iX, or a 911 over a Taycan. Appreciate some people do long miles but nobody NEEDS the ICE alternative of cars like those. Buy a hybrid.
I followed a Taycan Cross Turismo the other day and it looked lovely. That said, the thing was HUGE and it seemed to be rather unwieldy on the narrow roads round here. Other EV's with promise and character seem to be the Honda (as mentioned in the article) and the new VW ID Buzz which I can see myself considering at some point if I ever need to replace the current T5.Those who annoy me the most are the ones who can afford to buy what they like and still choose a brand new Range Rover over a BMW iX, or a 911 over a Taycan. Appreciate some people do long miles but nobody NEEDS the ICE alternative of cars like those. Buy a hybrid.
I would argue though that the poster above, before casting judgement, perhaps needs to do a little more research on a number of different fronts including:
- The length of mileage that it takes a new EV takes to break even with a new or existing ICE car in the CO2 resulting from it's manufacture and taking into account other factors including the toxicity, pollution and environmental damage done by Lithium mining and battery production/disposal.
- The cost, disruption and CO2 impact of replacing our existing ICE infrastructure with a second and all new infrastructure for EV charging and power distribution and how this is achievable in densely populated urban areas.
- The replacement/recycling factors associated with battery lifespan and the current limitations of battery production based on the availability of rare earth metals.
- Where does the power from our electric cars comes from? How our electricity is currently generated and the proportion of this that is from fossil fuels.
- Solving the electricity storage problem and the costs associated with running both a sustainable electricity generation network, and also a duplicate fossil fuel based generation network for those days when the wind does not blow. A duplicated network is a good part of why our energy bills are becoming so high.
Ultimately, electric cars are nowhere near as green as the marketing would have you believe so I would say that the poster above is wrong to cast judgement on those choosing ICE cars. In fact building an electric car (or any car) creates significant problems for the environment. So the greenest option of all is to keep already manufactured cars going for as long as economically possible and only replacing them when they reach their end of life. Not much money in that approach for manufacturers or governments though.
Perhaps the best balance all round would seem to by the hybrid option, and if air pollution is an issue in urban environments, perhaps a requirement for hybrids to operate in electric only mode (controllable by GPS) in these city center locations.
If however we are determined to go all electric, and we are still committed to cutting CO2, and in the absence of effective electrical storage options, then we will need to invest heavily going forward in nuclear power to wean ourselves off our current fossil fuel based power plants. Tidal lagoon type power also shows promise, however the costs are currently prohibitive.
Either way, if we are committed to going full EV then it is going to mean that we will all pay a lot more for our energy going forward. Make no mistake about it, the cost to the taxpayer is going to be HUGE. Is that sustainable or palatable given the already huge cost of living issues? Only time will tell!
If I was a betting man though, then I would be fairly sure that the government will have to backtrack on it's pledge to end the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2030.
GT9 said:
Twinair said:
Again, the site is called Pistonheads, not Batterybrains (C)
You're too late, I've already negotiated a deal with Cargurus to change the name to Watt-the-Flux.com in 2030, to coincide with the ban.*- That may or may not be true
I wonder what the strap line would be:
Speed matters (remember - this site used to say that below the main banner? Slowly cancelled…!)
Will it say: ‘Watt-the-flux.com, where: Fleming’s left hand rule matters…’ (C)
They can use that - I’m not bitter :-)) xx
Pughmacher said:
Unfortunately as posted above by both this is the way we should be thinking about EV. Where is the resource coming from? How sustainable is it?
er, we ARE thinking about it, and in fact doing it too!Take my little I3, built in a factory whose electricity is from a 100% reneweable supply and has been for over 10 years.
Or what about the IX i4 production lines that are now locally renewably powered
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/deta...
The fact is, the auomotive industry has massively changed over the last 10 years and continues to lead the way. Can it be even greener, sure of course it can, but don't for one minute don't think that lots of very clever people with huge budgets to weild are solving the very issues faced already!
As green battery cell production comes on stream (and that is happening at a massive rate) the one remaining "issue" namely the large carbon footprint of the batteries used in BEVs goes away. Depsite the fact that today a BEV has a lower total life emissions than any comparable ICE, BEVs are going to get massively less impactful over the next 5 years as producton volumes ramp up.
One of the fundamental factors of a BEV is that the majority component, the battery cells themselves) are not just highyl parallel, easily scalable, but that they are a made using a "Low temperature process" so they are intrinsically easy to drive with renewables. An Engine, which is complex and full of cery high grade metals formed with primarily high temperature processes is much less easy to drive with renewables.
As BEV lines replace ICE ones, we will continue to see a constant downwards shift in the impact of battery and BEV production.
Dombilano said:
D4rez said:
This thread just shows why the ban is right, left to their own devices most will find some convenient stat to avoid changing their lifestyle.
You do understand how government works don't you? They are elected to represent the people, not dictate to them. Sometimes you, as an individual, might just know better than the other flawed human that is supposedly representing you. All government is self serving and crooked. All MPs are self serving and crooked. Even the militant Greens. My lifestyle isn't here to be changed. I will embrace all new technologies and BEVs or EVs or Hydrogen or synthetic fuels. But right now, petrol suits me fine.
Cobnapint said:
ajap1979 said:
Cobnapint said:
ajap1979 said:
Cobnapint said:
ajap1979 said:
Cobnapint said:
And added to all that, it's not cheap anymore to charge an EV up, even at home.
Haha, I think plenty might disagree with that! I’m not on a particularly cheap tariff, but it only costs me £11 to fully charge my Polestar, and that will see me get 200+ miles. At the moment, £55 in my up! GTI gets me 250 miles. Anyway, now we know, at 26p/kWh and a charging time of say 10hrs on a 7.2kW home charger, that's about £18 isn't it?
Willing to be corrected.
61kWh battery
0.18625p / kWh
Long term average is 30.1kWh/100miles
Elmariachi said:
Surprised the E-Niro doesn’t even get a mention - I’ve had one for a year and it’s been utterly brilliant. I’ve had 300 miles of range on one charge out of it, it’s practical, well equipped even as one of the lower spec models, relatively quick (0-60 in 7-something but feels quicker in use as most EVs do) and so easy to drive.
I considered and test drove the Zoe, the BMW i3, Mini and the Honda-e amongst quite a few others and picked the Niro above them all as a better all round proposition. It’s also been around for a few years so there should be lots to choose from.
Admittedly I’d have the Taycan if I had the budget
Nice to see this kind of article appearing on here now, anyway - whether it’s the crazy price of fuel or the fires and heat that’s done it, hopefully people are waking up to the fact that they can’t just keep on selfishly driving polluting cars anymore without it having dire consequences.
Those who annoy me the most are the ones who can afford to buy what they like and still choose a brand new Range Rover over a BMW iX, or a 911 over a Taycan. Appreciate some people do long miles but nobody NEEDS the ICE alternative of cars like those. Buy a hybrid.
and this is why people are pissed off with the converts. Starts off perfectly reasonably, and then launches into full on 'vegan mode' at which point it's "fI considered and test drove the Zoe, the BMW i3, Mini and the Honda-e amongst quite a few others and picked the Niro above them all as a better all round proposition. It’s also been around for a few years so there should be lots to choose from.
Admittedly I’d have the Taycan if I had the budget
Nice to see this kind of article appearing on here now, anyway - whether it’s the crazy price of fuel or the fires and heat that’s done it, hopefully people are waking up to the fact that they can’t just keep on selfishly driving polluting cars anymore without it having dire consequences.
Those who annoy me the most are the ones who can afford to buy what they like and still choose a brand new Range Rover over a BMW iX, or a 911 over a Taycan. Appreciate some people do long miles but nobody NEEDS the ICE alternative of cars like those. Buy a hybrid.
Edited by Elmariachi on Sunday 31st July 07:36
k you very much, I'm offski"On the subject of EV's being more expensive I'm coming round the the thinking that they may not be that much more than (already expensive) ICE cars. If I was looking at a load-lugger for family/holidays etc I may well look at a Merc C-class estate or a GLC 250 - to get a similar sized Tesla (for example) is going to cost a little more. Indeed once you're onto monthlies it may even end up costing less (once you factor in (current) cheaper running costs.
Obviously if we're talking second-hand cars you've got decades of ICE to chose from so the variety and price will be huge compared to a BEV which makes half of this comparison a little unfair. I do hear the argument that a lot of people won't buy a C-class estate and will look at a Skoda Karoq, which is fair enough - until you realise that a fully specc'd Karoq will get into the 40's
FWIW the most desirable electric car for me (and that's a phrase I thought I'd never hear myself say!!) would be a model X - sadly they're too much to man-maths away the extra £££
Pughmacher said:
The sad fact is it’s consumption that’s got us into the current climate pickle.
In the basic sense of the word, to consume is to ingest something and convert it into something else whilst releasing energy, mostly heat.Fossil fuels are obviously consumed.
Now consider recyclable materials.
If these materials are borrowed and then returned for someone else to borrow, forever essentially, are we actually consuming them?
Looking at it selfishly, if a country, say the UK, can acquire (and prevent the net export of) sufficient materials to produce a never-ending supply of batteries to a fairly stable population, and be able to both indefinitely produce/recycle/reproduce and charge those batteries with energy from the sun, in theory, you can achieve net zero or close to it.
Of course, that implies an upfront burden of both acquiring those materials, and installing sufficient infrastructure to generate and distribute renewable electricity. The infrastructure burden clearly depend on the frugality with which the chosen technology can produce useful work from system input energy.
And that's where we find ourselves. By far the least consumptive medium and long term solution is direct charging of batteries from energy we can capture from the sun. By far. Anybody with a reasonable understanding of engineering, physics, properties of materials, and in possession of a working calculator, will reach the same conclusion.
Hydrogen comes a very distant second with a far greater infrastructure burden, and little, if any, benefit regarding materials. Partly because it's so difficult to store volumetrically, and partly because the materials required to do so are less recyclable.
If we want to reduce consumption, in absence of severely restricting the use of cars, the answer is actually fairly simple.
Glenn63 said:
Tesla still seem to be way ahead in terms of range/power for the money. I actually quite fancy a Model Y for the commute/ mundane stuff if I could afford a ‘proper’ sports car to sit along side.
Indeed they are, way ahead. The majority of people don't really care about efficiency though, like people didn't used to care much about mpg until fuel costs started to rise dramatically...GT9 said:
Pughmacher said:
The sad fact is it’s consumption that’s got us into the current climate pickle.
In the basic sense of the word, to consume is to ingest something and convert it into something else whilst releasing energy, mostly heat.Fossil fuels are obviously consumed.
Now consider recyclable materials.
If these materials are borrowed and then returned for someone else to borrow, forever essentially, are we actually consuming them?
Looking at it selfishly, if a country, say the UK, can acquire (and prevent the net export of) sufficient materials to produce a never-ending supply of batteries to a fairly stable population, and be able to both indefinitely produce/recycle/reproduce and charge those batteries with energy from the sun, in theory, you can achieve net zero or close to it.
Of course, that implies an upfront burden of both acquiring those materials, and installing sufficient infrastructure to generate and distribute renewable electricity. The infrastructure burden clearly depend on the frugality with which the chosen technology can produce useful work from system input energy.
And that's where we find ourselves. By far the least consumptive medium and long term solution is direct charging of batteries from energy we can capture from the sun. By far. Anybody with a reasonable understanding of engineering, physics, properties of materials, and in possession of a working calculator, will reach the same conclusion.
Hydrogen comes a very distant second with a far greater infrastructure burden, and little, if any, benefit regarding materials. Partly because it's so difficult to store volumetrically, and partly because the materials required to do so are less recyclable.
If we want to reduce consumption, in absence of severely restricting the use of cars, the answer is actually fairly simple.
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