RE: BMW 340i manual (F30) | Spotted
Discussion
tenmantaylor said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
I agree with your first 2 points, but in situations that you mention in reality is putting an auto in manual mode that bad? If I'm in manual mode and slowing down my car will only shift down if it's about to stall.... Which is exactly what I'd do in a manual, because I don't want to stall my engine. Why's that an issue?
Upshifting automatically at the redline? Some autos do and some don't.... But again, is this ever a problem on road, really? I've certainly never found it an issue.
You can preselect a gear with an auto if you want to, and it may save you some fuel, but over an ownership the auto would be more economical so I don't think that argument stands.
I think you misunderatand (apologies if i didnt make myself clear). Its not just about the gear you are in and if it does or doesn't stay in that gear, it's more than that.Upshifting automatically at the redline? Some autos do and some don't.... But again, is this ever a problem on road, really? I've certainly never found it an issue.
You can preselect a gear with an auto if you want to, and it may save you some fuel, but over an ownership the auto would be more economical so I don't think that argument stands.
It's the fact the software is controlling the engine without your input. It's raising revs when they aren't need, and not doing it where they are.
No auto can ever allow me to control the engine and by extension, the car, the way I want it to. They can never, ever predict EXACTLY what throttle position I want at each moment, how much engine drag I want to control the rear end on turn in.
When I was lapping Combe in my manual e92 M3 I was trail braking, blipping the throttle on downshifts and fading the clutch at the same time as I drifted over the crest into T1. It was heaven, I've never had so much fun in a car as then. No auto could ever do that.
I enjoy driving my old manual focus 1.6 diesel to the shops more than I did driving a brand new A5 TFSI S Line across some of the best roads in the Cotswolds today. There is no interference with my inputs in the Focus, no lag, no unintended movement of the car. My S6 is loads better, loads more responsive and faster but I still find myself raging at the gearbox as it pushes me forward in a corner or whilst I wait for an upshift or respond to a shift I didn't order.
Autos are s
t.They can't predict what throttle position you want next, but neither can a manual gearbox? Providing the gearbox doesn't shift by itself (which many, in manual mode, don't, then I can't understand. Nothing can predict your throttle position desire, which is why you need to manually control the throttle and a computer doesn't do that.
Gweeds said:
It's not trying to be though. It's pretty honest about what it is. A fast, comfortable family saloon/estate with a brilliant drivetrain, and an engine that can show very economy for the performance.
I actually opted for one over an M3 - as great as they are it was just a bit too focussed for the driving I do.
Same here ... 'dropped' from a Giulia Quadrifoglio to an M340i after having owned an MPPSK'd 440i a few years back.I actually opted for one over an M3 - as great as they are it was just a bit too focussed for the driving I do.
Fantastic daily driver, far better suited to what I want, but doesn't hold a candle to the Giulia (or I'd guess M3) as you'd expect. Handling and capability isn't anywhere near, they shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence really!
When you're not in the mood in the Alfa it was doing 24mpg, in this it's more like 38mpg ... And everything else costs considerably less.
Having bought a 428i Gran Coupe M Sport just over a year ago (thread in Readers cars if you're interested, I regularly keep it up to date) it's basically the same under the skin. I couldn't imagine a car like this with a Manual. The ZF 8 speed is quite simply sublime. Smooth shifting, quick to react and if you spec the Sports auto you get paddles behind the wheel as well as a sequential shifter on the centre console that does have 'pull back to change up, push forward to change down' as it should be.
It likely has the small iDrive screen because I don't think it's an M-Sport, or if it is the wide nav only came on the 4 with it as standard. Mine also has heated seats which I always thought were standard too and the standard audio package which I'm OK with, i only stream music via bluetooth or listen to DAB.
I like this one, but it's missing too much for me.
It likely has the small iDrive screen because I don't think it's an M-Sport, or if it is the wide nav only came on the 4 with it as standard. Mine also has heated seats which I always thought were standard too and the standard audio package which I'm OK with, i only stream music via bluetooth or listen to DAB.
I like this one, but it's missing too much for me.
Edited by MissChief on Wednesday 10th August 18:19
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Please forgive my ignorance but I don't understand this. For example, if you're using an auto or DCT box and you're in manual mode, if you put your foot down, you accelerate, if you ease off the throttle, you do the opposite. You can change gear when you want. I don't see how that isn't controlling the engine?
They can't predict what throttle position you want next, but neither can a manual gearbox? Providing the gearbox doesn't shift by itself (which many, in manual mode, don't, then I can't understand. Nothing can predict your throttle position desire, which is why you need to manually control the throttle and a computer doesn't do that.
Even a DCT, they can't shift, take away the throttle, apply the clutch, re-apply it in a smooth analogous way the way I can with a manual box and clutch. There is always, always a lag, a delay, a slight mismatch between exact desired timing and input that gives me so much satisfaction when driving manual. It's an extra dimension that heightens the reward of driving well.They can't predict what throttle position you want next, but neither can a manual gearbox? Providing the gearbox doesn't shift by itself (which many, in manual mode, don't, then I can't understand. Nothing can predict your throttle position desire, which is why you need to manually control the throttle and a computer doesn't do that.
If I was racing a formula car I'd always want a sequential/paddle box with instant shifts. It's the way to lap time no doubt. But there is more to driving than that.
If I want to enjoy the driving, engaging with more parts of the car and controlling everything, even if slower, more effort, manual every time. I can control the amount of revs on a downshift blip when heel toeing. No auto can do that without having a 2 hour pre-brief with a race engineer.
Sometimes shifting from 6th to 4th is desirable. 4th to 2nd. Another manual only feature.
I hope this is clearer it's about connection, feeling, complexity, nothing interfering. Purity. Elegance.
tenmantaylor said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Please forgive my ignorance but I don't understand this. For example, if you're using an auto or DCT box and you're in manual mode, if you put your foot down, you accelerate, if you ease off the throttle, you do the opposite. You can change gear when you want. I don't see how that isn't controlling the engine?
They can't predict what throttle position you want next, but neither can a manual gearbox? Providing the gearbox doesn't shift by itself (which many, in manual mode, don't, then I can't understand. Nothing can predict your throttle position desire, which is why you need to manually control the throttle and a computer doesn't do that.
Even a DCT, they can't shift, take away the throttle, apply the clutch, re-apply it in a smooth analogous way the way I can with a manual box and clutch. There is always, always a lag, a delay, a slight mismatch between exact desired timing and input that gives me so much satisfaction when driving manual. It's an extra dimension that heightens the reward of driving well.They can't predict what throttle position you want next, but neither can a manual gearbox? Providing the gearbox doesn't shift by itself (which many, in manual mode, don't, then I can't understand. Nothing can predict your throttle position desire, which is why you need to manually control the throttle and a computer doesn't do that.
If I was racing a formula car I'd always want a sequential/paddle box with instant shifts. It's the way to lap time no doubt. But there is more to driving than that.
If I want to enjoy the driving, engaging with more parts of the car and controlling everything, even if slower, more effort, manual every time. I can control the amount of revs on a downshift blip when heel toeing. No auto can do that without having a 2 hour pre-brief with a race engineer.
Sometimes shifting from 6th to 4th is desirable. 4th to 2nd. Another manual only feature.
I hope this is clearer it's about connection, feeling, complexity, nothing interfering. Purity. Elegance.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain, thank you.
tenmantaylor said:
Even a DCT, they can't shift, take away the throttle, apply the clutch, re-apply it in a smooth analogous way the way I can with a manual box and clutch. There is always, always a lag, a delay, a slight mismatch between exact desired timing and input that gives me so much satisfaction when driving manual. It's an extra dimension that heightens the reward of driving well.
If I was racing a formula car I'd always want a sequential/paddle box with instant shifts. It's the way to lap time no doubt. But there is more to driving than that.
If I want to enjoy the driving, engaging with more parts of the car and controlling everything, even if slower, more effort, manual every time. I can control the amount of revs on a downshift blip when heel toeing. No auto can do that without having a 2 hour pre-brief with a race engineer.
Sometimes shifting from 6th to 4th is desirable. 4th to 2nd. Another manual only feature.
I hope this is clearer it's about connection, feeling, complexity, nothing interfering. Purity. Elegance.
I’ve got an M235i auto and I do understand what you’re saying, there are times the gearbox will hold revs in a flat spot a bit longer than you’d like after you’ve lifted up. But to be honest, I’m willing to accept that for the 90% of not ‘on it’ driving you’re doing and not arsed with working a biting point on a notch gearbox on a motorway jam. If I was racing a formula car I'd always want a sequential/paddle box with instant shifts. It's the way to lap time no doubt. But there is more to driving than that.
If I want to enjoy the driving, engaging with more parts of the car and controlling everything, even if slower, more effort, manual every time. I can control the amount of revs on a downshift blip when heel toeing. No auto can do that without having a 2 hour pre-brief with a race engineer.
Sometimes shifting from 6th to 4th is desirable. 4th to 2nd. Another manual only feature.
I hope this is clearer it's about connection, feeling, complexity, nothing interfering. Purity. Elegance.
Not many of us have the luxury to have a hoon car so for the masses the autos fit the bill most of the time more often than the manual. Personal opinion of course.
pb8g09 said:
I’ve got an M235i auto and I do understand what you’re saying, there are times the gearbox will hold revs in a flat spot a bit longer than you’d like after you’ve lifted up. But to be honest, I’m willing to accept that for the 90% of not ‘on it’ driving you’re doing and not arsed with working a biting point on a notch gearbox on a motorway jam.
Not many of us have the luxury to have a hoon car so for the masses the autos fit the bill most of the time more often than the manual. Personal opinion of course.
Good example.Not many of us have the luxury to have a hoon car so for the masses the autos fit the bill most of the time more often than the manual. Personal opinion of course.
It's not about performance or speed. It's about connection and control. One tiny (I'm talking fraction of a second) where the engine does something the gearbox told it to, not me, I get seriously pissed off. That's what I mean by control of the engine. Only the throttle, controlled by me, should control revs, and it should be immediate, not processed and delayed by an algorithm or CANBUS system from the 90s. Don't believe the BS you've been fed by the car industry about how fast the shifts are, the processing power. Its all killed by lag before the amazing gearbox recieves the signal. Anything more than 1ms is unacceptable to me. Most have lag of 100s of ms from input to response. Most might not feel that but I do. Amd don't get me started on throttle lag on top of the gearbox lag.
I enjoy driving manuals even at normal speeds, matching shifts and blips coasting to roundabouts at 30mph. It's a skill to be refined and enjoyed, not ignored and bypassed for the sake of convenience.
There's no excuse for loving auto apart from laziness/ignorance or in the case of sequential/motorsport environments, outright speed.
Matt_T said:
Stupid question time... how does cruise control work with a manual gearbox? In my auto Honda, when it's in cruise it changes through the gearbox for hills to maintain the same speed. What happens in a manual car when you get to a uphill?
In a manual the ECU manages fuel flow and timing to maintain speed within the selected gear. Of course it can't always achieve that.
I do still have 3 pedals in the 370Z though, and maybe I would feel a lot different if I was stuck with only one car that had a DCT/auto. I do still like to keep my hand in with 3 pedals.
With hindsight I wish that I'd gone for the DCT over the manual in the E92 M3 that I had, and I reckon that I would've rated the car more highly if it was the DCT version. The S65 engine feels more lively with the DCT I reckon(I've driven my BILs E93 M3 DCT a few times).
With hindsight I wish that I'd gone for the DCT over the manual in the E92 M3 that I had, and I reckon that I would've rated the car more highly if it was the DCT version. The S65 engine feels more lively with the DCT I reckon(I've driven my BILs E93 M3 DCT a few times).
tenmantaylor said:
Good example.
It's not about performance or speed. It's about connection and control. One tiny (I'm talking fraction of a second) where the engine does something the gearbox told it to, not me, I get seriously pissed off. That's what I mean by control of the engine. Only the throttle, controlled by me, should control revs, and it should be immediate, not processed and delayed by an algorithm or CANBUS system from the 90s. Don't believe the BS you've been fed by the car industry about how fast the shifts are, the processing power. Its all killed by lag before the amazing gearbox recieves the signal. Anything more than 1ms is unacceptable to me. Most have lag of 100s of ms from input to response. Most might not feel that but I do. Amd don't get me started on throttle lag on top of the gearbox lag.
I enjoy driving manuals even at normal speeds, matching shifts and blips coasting to roundabouts at 30mph. It's a skill to be refined and enjoyed, not ignored and bypassed for the sake of convenience.
There's no excuse for loving auto apart from laziness/ignorance or in the case of sequential/motorsport environments, outright speed.
Do you consider yourself to be a driving god? It's not about performance or speed. It's about connection and control. One tiny (I'm talking fraction of a second) where the engine does something the gearbox told it to, not me, I get seriously pissed off. That's what I mean by control of the engine. Only the throttle, controlled by me, should control revs, and it should be immediate, not processed and delayed by an algorithm or CANBUS system from the 90s. Don't believe the BS you've been fed by the car industry about how fast the shifts are, the processing power. Its all killed by lag before the amazing gearbox recieves the signal. Anything more than 1ms is unacceptable to me. Most have lag of 100s of ms from input to response. Most might not feel that but I do. Amd don't get me started on throttle lag on top of the gearbox lag.
I enjoy driving manuals even at normal speeds, matching shifts and blips coasting to roundabouts at 30mph. It's a skill to be refined and enjoyed, not ignored and bypassed for the sake of convenience.
There's no excuse for loving auto apart from laziness/ignorance or in the case of sequential/motorsport environments, outright speed.
philmots said:
I’ve got a current M340i Touring, it I couldn’t get the auto I wouldn’t have bought it.
And that is of course your choice but I've been of the opposite opinion with the last 3 BMWs I've bought. The lack of a manual option seriously reduces the desirability of some cars for me and even an imperfect manual is preferable to an auto in many cases.It's the same with the lack of a RWD option on many of the new performance models. The M240i X-Drive and M340i X-Drive are much less appealing to me than the older models.
As it is, I've really enjoyed the manuals in both my F30 3-Series and my current M140i. An auto really detracts from the experience of driving the latter.
joropug said:
Manuals might be preferable in some marques, but from my experience BMW ones are the worst out there - I sold my F30 320d purely due to how much I hated the manual gearbox which is notchy and clutch which has a huge throw (to the point you can buy aftermarket clutch stops, but they run the risk of grinding gears).
Worst of all, the pedal position just doesn't work in a manual, the brake and accelerator feel really far forward because of the long clutch throw, which meant i sat diagonally in the seat and got a bad back on long journeys.
I noticed all of this on the test drive and convinced myself it's a 3 series, they sell millions of them, it'll be fine - it really wasn't.
This, I’ve always thought BMW manual boxes were disappointing, going back to my E30 325i and ever since. Worst of all, the pedal position just doesn't work in a manual, the brake and accelerator feel really far forward because of the long clutch throw, which meant i sat diagonally in the seat and got a bad back on long journeys.
I noticed all of this on the test drive and convinced myself it's a 3 series, they sell millions of them, it'll be fine - it really wasn't.
It made the e46 M3 a disappointing experience for me, a waste of a great engine and chassis.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff