RE: Final EU vote on 2035 engine phaseout delayed
Discussion
GT9 said:
havoc said:
Not at all. I'm a card-carrying cynic. I just enjoy pointing out flaws in the arguments of true believers...on any side of the debate.
Be careful of splinters!
More seriously, why DO I need to take a side? Debates/arguments nowadays seem to get so polarised, yet we all know the real-world isn't anywhere near that black and white.
(Besides, I've already agreed that long-term the future of mass transit has to be BEVs and nuclear/renewables generation*. I'm just questioning some of the short-term answers, and learning stuff in the process...)
* unless someone can perfect inductive charging for cars which is remotely affordable to retrofit to our major roads.
DonkeyApple said:
The insane shopping habits of U.K. car consumers and the need for new currently has a benefit in that it ensures the fleet as a whole produces less and less pollution but once most cars are EVs there ought to be tweaking of consumer finance regulation to end the mad shopathon and help consumers revert to looking after the products while saving for the next. We import almost all of our cars so in addition this would hugely benefit the U.K. balance of payments while reducing currency exposure and expanding local labour demand as cars would need to be maintained better and for longer.
Never happen. Our lords and masters know the world economy - and their ongoing accretion of more wealth - is dependent on everyone acting like good little consumers and spending more and more money. It's a pyramid scheme and 99% of people are stuck at the bottom...braddo said:
Hopefully havoc isnt too busy trying to score internet cynic points and will read DA’s post. He might learn something and realise he needs to go back and re-read why efuels are a non- starter due to their inefficiency versus batteries.
You haven't a clue, do you?You sit there sniping at people who don't cheerleader for the same side as you, without trying to work out who they are or what they think.
Stop trolling, start acting reasonably, and maybe I'll start taking you seriously.
axel1990chp said:
Pardon my ignorance in not sieving through the 50+ pages, I've only just come across this thread after a debate with colleagues re: EV's and the 'banning' of ICE in the future.
What are the plans for charging for households without driveway/garage access? Such as Terrace homes with multiple family cars (Difficulty parking outside your own home with just one car) or Apartments/Flats/Studios? Granted some apartments etc have private parking, others have permit granted street parking - if you can find it.
Personally I am not dead set against EV, but id much prefer a better hybrid system with smaller engines than flat out pure EV.
And to again pardon my ignorance, what's the maintenance cost/battery life when it eventually gives up the goose?
Hybrids with smaller batteries need to be plugged in frequently if they are to be low carbon and so they are actually worse for the situation you describe where people cannot easily charge at home. The solution to that is a combination of destination charging, wider availability of fast DC chargers and cars that can use them and optimising EV efficiency, which at city speeds is mostly a function of regenerative braking, more efficient motors and low rolling resistance tyres. (Absolute weight and drag are lesser considerations.)What are the plans for charging for households without driveway/garage access? Such as Terrace homes with multiple family cars (Difficulty parking outside your own home with just one car) or Apartments/Flats/Studios? Granted some apartments etc have private parking, others have permit granted street parking - if you can find it.
Personally I am not dead set against EV, but id much prefer a better hybrid system with smaller engines than flat out pure EV.
And to again pardon my ignorance, what's the maintenance cost/battery life when it eventually gives up the goose?
While batteries can fail sporadically and/or degrade, mostly they are good for 1500 charge cycles (300,000-500,000 miles) so likely in the vast majority of cases to outlive the vehicle. Early batteries with poor thermal management had poorer lifespan but that's largely a thing of the past. The idea that you will be junking your car because of needing a prohibitively expensive battery at 8-10 years is an urban myth.
the way I see EVs is simple :
if it makes you feel better about your actions and you want an EV run it, don't stuff it down the throats of everyone else who may not want it. It seems to attract the same type of people that stuff Apple hardware down peoples throats and tell us how good it is to be vegan.
I personally much prefer running an older(most of my cars are nearing 20 years old) petrol and not worry about crappy infrastructure etc. I do get that buying an EV simply places emissions in a different area, I even have a feeling that EV's are just place-holders while e-fuels are being developed and made more main-stream. Let's be real, majority of people can't afford £30k on a small EV hatchback and running a 2-5k car is the norm.
either way, until massive corps get a kick up the arse, nothing will change.. single digit % drops don't mean much.
if it makes you feel better about your actions and you want an EV run it, don't stuff it down the throats of everyone else who may not want it. It seems to attract the same type of people that stuff Apple hardware down peoples throats and tell us how good it is to be vegan.
I personally much prefer running an older(most of my cars are nearing 20 years old) petrol and not worry about crappy infrastructure etc. I do get that buying an EV simply places emissions in a different area, I even have a feeling that EV's are just place-holders while e-fuels are being developed and made more main-stream. Let's be real, majority of people can't afford £30k on a small EV hatchback and running a 2-5k car is the norm.
either way, until massive corps get a kick up the arse, nothing will change.. single digit % drops don't mean much.
Soupdragon65 said:
Hybrids with smaller batteries need to be plugged in frequently if they are to be low carbon and so they are actually worse for the situation you describe where people cannot easily charge at home. The solution to that is a combination of destination charging, wider availability of fast DC chargers and cars that can use them and optimising EV efficiency, which at city speeds is mostly a function of regenerative braking, more efficient motors and low rolling resistance tyres. (Absolute weight and drag are lesser considerations.)
Low rolling resistance and good tyre adhesion (especially wet) tend to be conflicting targets.Tyre rolling resistance and weight are virtually proportional (double weight and rolling resistance doubles). Very odd to focus on low rolling resistance tyres but not reducing weight.
Regenerative retardation (alias 'braking') largely offsets EV mass. Aero drag becomes the dominant factor for EV range. Low CdA is vital unless you want to travel very slowly.
Soupdragon65 said:
While batteries can fail sporadically and/or degrade, mostly they are good for 1500 charge cycles (300,000-500,000 miles) so likely in the vast majority of cases to outlive the vehicle. Early batteries with poor thermal management had poorer lifespan but that's largely a thing of the past. The idea that you will be junking your car because of needing a prohibitively expensive battery at 8-10 years is an urban myth.
Which means batteries will have significant residual value when the EV is worn out. Also means that second-hand EVs will remain relatively expensive over their lifetime. Days of the cheap ICE 'banger' are numbered. Get the bus instead...grudas said:
the way I see EVs is simple :
if it makes you feel better about your actions and you want an EV run it, don't stuff it down the throats of everyone else who may not want it. It seems to attract the same type of people that stuff Apple hardware down peoples throats and tell us how good it is to be vegan.
I personally much prefer running an older(most of my cars are nearing 20 years old) petrol and not worry about crappy infrastructure etc. I do get that buying an EV simply places emissions in a different area, I even have a feeling that EV's are just place-holders while e-fuels are being developed and made more main-stream. Let's be real, majority of people can't afford £30k on a small EV hatchback and running a 2-5k car is the norm.
either way, until massive corps get a kick up the arse, nothing will change.. single digit % drops don't mean much.
God, it really is, isn't it!?if it makes you feel better about your actions and you want an EV run it, don't stuff it down the throats of everyone else who may not want it. It seems to attract the same type of people that stuff Apple hardware down peoples throats and tell us how good it is to be vegan.
I personally much prefer running an older(most of my cars are nearing 20 years old) petrol and not worry about crappy infrastructure etc. I do get that buying an EV simply places emissions in a different area, I even have a feeling that EV's are just place-holders while e-fuels are being developed and made more main-stream. Let's be real, majority of people can't afford £30k on a small EV hatchback and running a 2-5k car is the norm.
either way, until massive corps get a kick up the arse, nothing will change.. single digit % drops don't mean much.
grudas said:
the way I see EVs is simple :
if it makes you feel better about your actions and you want an EV run it, don't stuff it down the throats of everyone else who may not want it. It seems to attract the same type of people that stuff Apple hardware down peoples throats and tell us how good it is to be vegan.
I personally much prefer running an older(most of my cars are nearing 20 years old) petrol and not worry about crappy infrastructure etc. I do get that buying an EV simply places emissions in a different area, I even have a feeling that EV's are just place-holders while e-fuels are being developed and made more main-stream. Let's be real, majority of people can't afford £30k on a small EV hatchback and running a 2-5k car is the norm.
either way, until massive corps get a kick up the arse, nothing will change.. single digit % drops don't mean much.
There is no sensible argument or pathway to synthetic fuels for widespread use.if it makes you feel better about your actions and you want an EV run it, don't stuff it down the throats of everyone else who may not want it. It seems to attract the same type of people that stuff Apple hardware down peoples throats and tell us how good it is to be vegan.
I personally much prefer running an older(most of my cars are nearing 20 years old) petrol and not worry about crappy infrastructure etc. I do get that buying an EV simply places emissions in a different area, I even have a feeling that EV's are just place-holders while e-fuels are being developed and made more main-stream. Let's be real, majority of people can't afford £30k on a small EV hatchback and running a 2-5k car is the norm.
either way, until massive corps get a kick up the arse, nothing will change.. single digit % drops don't mean much.
Even the most basic grasp of physics/chemistry makes this clear.
bigothunter said:
Which means batteries will have significant residual value when the EV is worn out. Also means that second-hand EVs will remain relatively expensive over their lifetime. Days of the cheap ICE 'banger' are numbered. Get the bus instead...
Exactly, or alternatively that EV vehicles will have a much longer lifespan than ICE? That 10 year old 150,000 mile used car might be in much better mechanical condition than its smokey misfiring ICE equivalent.How many ICE cars are scrapped due to failing engines, gearboxes, exhaust/cats etc?
axel1990chp said:
Pardon my ignorance in not sieving through the 50+ pages, I've only just come across this thread after a debate with colleagues re: EV's and the 'banning' of ICE in the future.
What are the plans for charging for households without driveway/garage access? Such as Terrace homes with multiple family cars (Difficulty parking outside your own home with just one car) or Apartments/Flats/Studios? Granted some apartments etc have private parking, others have permit granted street parking - if you can find it.
Personally I am not dead set against EV, but id much prefer a better hybrid system with smaller engines than flat out pure EV.
And to again pardon my ignorance, what's the maintenance cost/battery life when it eventually gives up the goose?
People without driveways in the U.K. are going to be part of the depopulation program that people want. This will also solve the housing and NHS crisis. What are the plans for charging for households without driveway/garage access? Such as Terrace homes with multiple family cars (Difficulty parking outside your own home with just one car) or Apartments/Flats/Studios? Granted some apartments etc have private parking, others have permit granted street parking - if you can find it.
Personally I am not dead set against EV, but id much prefer a better hybrid system with smaller engines than flat out pure EV.
And to again pardon my ignorance, what's the maintenance cost/battery life when it eventually gives up the goose?
The big debate is whether the trains to take them away for processing will run on hydrogen or eFuels.
There are rumours growing that people might opt to just recharge at car parks while off doing other things rather than getting on the trains.
havoc said:
Never happen. Our lords and masters know the world economy - and their ongoing accretion of more wealth - is dependent on everyone acting like good little consumers and spending more and more money. It's a pyramid scheme and 99% of people are stuck at the bottom...
Sorry but weren't you accusing others of wearing tinfoil the other day for believing in proven science over corporate PR spin? 
havoc said:
You haven't a clue, do you?
You sit there sniping at people who don't cheerleader for the same side as you, without trying to work out who they are or what they think.
Stop trolling, start acting reasonably, and maybe I'll start taking you seriously.
No, I just read what is actually written and am learning from it. You're trying to be some pseudo devil's advocate and making yourself look foolish.You sit there sniping at people who don't cheerleader for the same side as you, without trying to work out who they are or what they think.
Stop trolling, start acting reasonably, and maybe I'll start taking you seriously.
havoc and synthetic fuel cheerleaders:DonkeyApple said:
havoc said:
Never happen. Our lords and masters know the world economy - and their ongoing accretion of more wealth - is dependent on everyone acting like good little consumers and spending more and more money. It's a pyramid scheme and 99% of people are stuck at the bottom...
Sorry but weren't you accusing others of wearing tinfoil the other day for believing in proven science over corporate PR spin? 
I may use hyperbole for effect on occasion...
(But more seriously - the above is broadly true. A large chunk of the global economy, and indeed all of the growth assumptions that big-corp execs hang their jobs on, is dependent on populations continuing to consume at the same or a growing rate. We (well, they...but also a lot of jobs working for their companies) have literally become depenent on a disposable culture. Which is completely counter-productive when you raise the whole matter of trying to save the planet...)
Braddo - in case you hadn't noticed, when DA and others put links up regarding the fallacy of efuels, I STOPPED championing them. I am quite happy to change my opinion when shown contradictory evidence. Can you say the same?
grudas said:
I even have a feeling that EV's are just place-holders while e-fuels are being developed and made more main-stream.
What do you make of this?https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/only...
GT9 said:
grudas said:
I even have a feeling that EV's are just place-holders while e-fuels are being developed and made more main-stream.
What do you make of this?https://www.transportenvironment.org/discover/only...
Does message tessellate with well-established wishful-thinking-powered hunch?
GADZOOKS!!!
Close and forget
Return to comforting embrace of hunch
Strangely Brown said:
"...a very real issue facing today's motorists - the increasingly large divide between those who can afford a NEW CAR and those who cannot. Are NEW CARS a realistic and practical solution for all?"
FTFYTry writing it out 50 times, I find it helps:
Only new car buyers can make second hand cars.
Only new car buyers can make second hand cars.
Only new car buyers can make second hand cars.
Only new car buyers can make second hand cars.
Only new car buyers can make second hand cars.
.....
Soupdragon65 said:
Yes poor countries will want to become richer, but they will only do so in a sustainable way if they feel that everyone is doing their bit.
I think poor countries aren't so moral. Have you seen the amount of non-European ways of doing business in Africa & Asia ? It's endemic in some nations.
Soupdragon65 said:
Whether that is by reducing your electricity usage, turning off your devices instead of leaving them blinking at you, eating less meat and taking fewer airline flights or even (gasp - the ultimate woke act) buying an EV, every bit helps, both in terms of CO2 but importantly in making the reaction to climate change a global effort.
You sound like you haven't heard of the price mechanism. Soupdragon65 said:
Arguing that we don't matter because it's all about Asia is the ultimate betrayal of this concept that global warming is, well, global.
The alternatives are much worse.
The planet has been both hotter and colder, recovered back to mean values and still it spins.The alternatives are much worse.
There is no tipping point.
It's only 10,000 years or so since the last European Ice Age. Of course things are warming up
a bit.
I don't see a small change in conditions over a vanishingly small geological interval of a couple
of thousand years making much difference to the planet.
dcb said:
The planet has been both hotter and colder, recovered back to mean values and still it spins.
There is no tipping point.
It's only 10,000 years or so since the last European Ice Age. Of course things are warming up
a bit.
I don't see a small change in conditions over a vanishingly small geological interval of a couple
of thousand years making much difference to the planet.
So do rising sea levels cause you concern?There is no tipping point.
It's only 10,000 years or so since the last European Ice Age. Of course things are warming up
a bit.
I don't see a small change in conditions over a vanishingly small geological interval of a couple
of thousand years making much difference to the planet.
When a few billion are displaced where would you like those people to go?
Have you not noticed the many millions being spent on sea defences just in the UK?
The planet may survive but it would be nice if the wildlife survived also.
dcb said:
Soupdragon65 said:
Yes poor countries will want to become richer, but they will only do so in a sustainable way if they feel that everyone is doing their bit.
I think poor countries aren't so moral. Have you seen the amount of Poor/developing countries (nee Third World) live by different rules. Very alien to cossetted western society.
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