RE: Final EU vote on 2035 engine phaseout delayed
Discussion
Regarding EV vs ICE efficiency, yeah sorry this again, amusingly we get 80% of our power from diesel generators and 20% from solar, but let's ignore the solar. The diesel gensets get a very respectable 18+kWh/gallon(imp) at the wall. The Taycan gets an absolutely horrible 2.5 miles/kWh. Putting the two together the Taycan does 45mpg, real world average over 10,000 miles, making 500+bhp and 0-60 in under 4. By comparison an S4 diesel has 340bhp, does 0-60 in 4.8 and gets 37mpg. Summary; even using an ICE generator to charge what must be the least efficient EV on the market is more efficient than using the ICE directly in the car to go much slower!
pheonix478 said:
Regarding EV vs ICE efficiency, yeah sorry this again, amusingly we get 80% of our power from diesel generators and 20% from solar, but let's ignore the solar. The diesel gensets get a very respectable 18+kWh/gallon(imp) at the wall. The Taycan gets an absolutely horrible 2.5 miles/kWh. Putting the two together the Taycan does 45mpg, real world average over 10,000 miles, making 500+bhp and 0-60 in under 4. By comparison an S4 diesel has 340bhp, does 0-60 in 4.8 and gets 37mpg. Summary; even using an ICE generator to charge what must be the least efficient EV on the market is more efficient than using the ICE directly in the car to go much slower!
bigothunter said:
Really should not be a matter of right or wrong. Much healthier to consider the whole scenario and reveal hidden baggage carried by ICEV and EV. Don't want EVs to become a doctrine do we?
Of course ICE fuel supply has energy overheads. But I am not convinced they nullify the penalty of 27% coal-power electricity generation worldwide. That puts matters in a very different perspective.
But I suggest exploring that topic is beyond the intended scope of this thread...
Fair point, I will conceded that it’s important to avoid hiding any baggage.Of course ICE fuel supply has energy overheads. But I am not convinced they nullify the penalty of 27% coal-power electricity generation worldwide. That puts matters in a very different perspective.
But I suggest exploring that topic is beyond the intended scope of this thread...
The problem is that this topic is often reduced down to single line ‘killer arguments’ in an attempt to register a win on the internet for the poster’s favourite type of car.
To respond with all of the necessary points to be 100% accurate means chapter and verse that invariably causes people to glaze over when they realise it not as simple as they thought.
I mostly find myself posting way too much pertinent information in one lump in an attempt to ensure the full picture is given, so it’s a nice change to be found wanting on this occasion.
GT9 said:
Fair point, I will conceded that it’s important to avoid hiding any baggage.
The problem is that this topic is often reduced down to single line ‘killer arguments’ in an attempt to register a win on the internet for the poster’s favourite type of car.
To respond with all of the necessary points to be 100% accurate means chapter and verse that invariably causes people to glaze over when they realise it not as simple as they thought.
I mostly find myself posting way too much pertinent information in one lump in an attempt to ensure the full picture is given, so it’s a nice change to be found wanting on this occasion.
Like you, I do not run an EV. But I can lease new cars at very competitive rates. Time is approaching when an EV 'daily driver' will make economic and practical sense. That day has not arrived yet but when it does, I will make the switch from ICEV to EV without hesitation.The problem is that this topic is often reduced down to single line ‘killer arguments’ in an attempt to register a win on the internet for the poster’s favourite type of car.
To respond with all of the necessary points to be 100% accurate means chapter and verse that invariably causes people to glaze over when they realise it not as simple as they thought.
I mostly find myself posting way too much pertinent information in one lump in an attempt to ensure the full picture is given, so it’s a nice change to be found wanting on this occasion.
My fun and track cars will remain ICE and RWD until I'm too old to care...
bigothunter said:
Like you, I do not run an EV. But I can lease new cars at very competitive rates. Time is approaching when an EV 'daily driver' will make economic and practical sense. That day has not arrived yet but when it does, I will make the switch from ICEV to EV without hesitation.
My fun and track cars will remain ICE and RWD until I'm too old to care...
Was just checking the news feeds on my phone and saw this:My fun and track cars will remain ICE and RWD until I'm too old to care...
“Saudi-led oil producers are to slash output by more than 1m barrels a day amid a scramble to drive up crude prices in the face of the stuttering global economy.”
Hmm, regardless of carbon footprint benefits, electric propulsion fed from home grown wind power has got a few things going for it…
GT9 said:
Was just checking the news feeds on my phone and saw this:
“Saudi-led oil producers are to slash output by more than 1m barrels a day amid a scramble to drive up crude prices in the face of the stuttering global economy.”
Hmm, regardless of carbon footprint benefits, electric propulsion fed from home grown wind power has got a few things going for it…
Being bled dry by nutter Wahabbi trillionaires for the win!“Saudi-led oil producers are to slash output by more than 1m barrels a day amid a scramble to drive up crude prices in the face of the stuttering global economy.”
Hmm, regardless of carbon footprint benefits, electric propulsion fed from home grown wind power has got a few things going for it…
bigothunter said:
500TORQUES said:
This is painfull. Traction matters enormously in 0-60 times, so does gear shift speed.
You have failed to mention:Weight transfer onto the driven wheels
Advantage of live axle over IRS for initial acceleration
Effect of decelerating a spinning flywheel which supplements engine torque
Reaction time of driver
State of his underpants
The list is endless. In which speed interval does your car achieve 1.2g ?
Does not need to start at zero...
911hope said:
Just let imagine if there was a motor that provided the same high torque across a very large rev range (all the way from zero). It would also have excellent modulation in a control loop (that is engineer speak for traction control). The acceleration would be linear and not broken by gear shifts, be able to avoid wheelspin. It would achieve it's targeted acceleration across a large speed range.
Now do it for 40 minutes plus two warmup laps without stopping at a target number of laps dictated by peak performance around the Silverstone GP circuit.How long will a Tesla Model 3 keep going if driven flat out at circa 130MPH?
911hope said:
Just let imagine if there was a motor that provided the same high torque across a very large rev range (all the way from zero). It would also have excellent modulation in a control loop (that is engineer speak for traction control). The acceleration would be linear and not broken by gear shifts, be able to avoid wheelspin. It would achieve it's targeted acceleration across a large speed range.
Yes electric traction is superior in almost every respect...Constant torque magnitude does not provide constant acceleration because aero drag increases with velocity^2. This is almost irrelevant for powerful cars below 60 mph.
500TORQUES said:
911hope said:
Just let imagine if there was a motor that provided the same high torque across a very large rev range (all the way from zero). It would also have excellent modulation in a control loop (that is engineer speak for traction control). The acceleration would be linear and not broken by gear shifts, be able to avoid wheelspin. It would achieve it's targeted acceleration across a large speed range.
Now do it for 40 minutes plus two warmup laps without stopping at a target number of laps dictated by peak performance around the Silverstone GP circuit.How long will a Tesla Model 3 keep going if driven flat out at circa 130MPH?
Sierra Cosworth will empty its (full) fuel tank in under 40 minutes when running at Vmax on the autobahn.
500TORQUES said:
bigothunter said:
Acceleration of 1.2g equates to 0-60mph in 2.3 secs. That's truly impressive 
Does it in 2.8, but obviously accelerates at higher G at lower speed.Pretty slow compared to a car built for drag racing of course.
Now g, is the acceleration due to earth's gravity, in the absence of drag.
bigothunter said:
Yes electric traction is superior in almost every respect...
Constant torque magnitude does not provide constant acceleration because aero drag increases with velocity^2. This is almost irrelevant for powerful cars below 60 mph.
Absolutely correct. Acceleration inevitably decreases with increasing velocity.Constant torque magnitude does not provide constant acceleration because aero drag increases with velocity^2. This is almost irrelevant for powerful cars below 60 mph.
bigothunter said:
911hope said:
Absolutely correct. Acceleration inevitably decreases with increasing velocity.
Only in the presence of increasing losses (eg aero drag).In a vacuum, Acceleration = k x Wheel Torque regardless of Velocity
where k is a constant
ICE cars not so good in a vacuum.
911hope said:
500TORQUES said:
bigothunter said:
Acceleration of 1.2g equates to 0-60mph in 2.3 secs. That's truly impressive
Does it in 2.8, but obviously accelerates at higher G at lower speed.Pretty slow compared to a car built for drag racing of course.
Now g, is the acceleration due to earth's gravity, in the absence of drag.
bigothunter said:
500TORQUES said:
911hope said:
Just let imagine if there was a motor that provided the same high torque across a very large rev range (all the way from zero). It would also have excellent modulation in a control loop (that is engineer speak for traction control). The acceleration would be linear and not broken by gear shifts, be able to avoid wheelspin. It would achieve it's targeted acceleration across a large speed range.
Now do it for 40 minutes plus two warmup laps without stopping at a target number of laps dictated by peak performance around the Silverstone GP circuit.How long will a Tesla Model 3 keep going if driven flat out at circa 130MPH?
Sierra Cosworth will empty its (full) fuel tank in under 40 minutes when running at Vmax on the autobahn.
500TORQUES said:
911hope said:
500TORQUES said:
bigothunter said:
Acceleration of 1.2g equates to 0-60mph in 2.3 secs. That's truly impressive
Does it in 2.8, but obviously accelerates at higher G at lower speed.Pretty slow compared to a car built for drag racing of course.
Now g, is the acceleration due to earth's gravity, in the absence of drag.
Inventing your own physics nomenclature is not really credible. Reminds me of Boris denials.
Do you use M to represent height?
500TORQUES said:
JD said:
You can't just mix up the units and expect everyone to be able to follow along.
There is no mixing up of units, it's also completely clear we are discussing the acceleration of the car, not gravitational effects.Find one where it says it can be used for the linear acceleration of an object?
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